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mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 12:19 PM
I am frustrated with what I see as lazy boat brokers. I call or email them with what feels like simple questions, sometimes as simple as "Do you have additional photos?". If I get a replay at all, it's usually days later and it's something like "We are really busy right now I will have to see what I can do".

We met one recently, at his office where the boat was located, he showed us the boat, not even knowing if it was gas or diesel (I already knew) talking the whole time about nothing even closely related to the boat and acted like he could care less the whole time. We asked to see another boat he was listing, same marina, he gave us the keys and told us where he "thought" it was. We found it, boarded, by ourselves, brought the keys back, literally 15 minutes later, and he was gone for the day.

I saw one on a website yesterday that caught my eye. I called, sat on hold for 5+ minutes, got a sales guy, started asking questions and he kept referring me to their website. I told him I had it in front of me and he would not even try to answer my questions.

Now I do not claim to be a boat broker nor do I claim to know what they do all day. But come on, at least try to sell the boat and try to sound interested. Seriously, what does a boat broker do all day in this market that they are so busy? Why are they not learning as much as they can about the boats they have for sale so they can answer questions right away? Instead it's let me get back to you? Are you serious? Why have a website with a contact area if you are not going to respond to the contact?

Did these guys make all their money years ago and now they are just in cruise control? Or is it the price range where a > $200k sale is a waste of their time?

gerryb
08-21-2008, 12:24 PM
What you don't understand is that you are seriously distracting them and taking time away from their real job, which is looking for another job outside the boat industry.:lol:

Seriously, I have had the same experience and also wonder why it has to be that a broker does not retunr a call or an email, or shows so little enthhusiasm about an item that is so expensive..

tmhudson2
08-21-2008, 12:28 PM
ISeriously, what does a boat broker do all day in this market that they are so busy?

Working on his golf game, perhaps?

I personally know one broker who works hard and is knowledgable about his listings, and will try to track down other boats that he doesn't have listed. I've also met a few who match the description of the ones you've encountered. Like realtors, a few are concientious and sell a lot, and some work just enough to get by. I'd guess there are many in between these two extremes.

fwebster
08-21-2008, 01:12 PM
Greg,

If I can be honest with you here, are you "telegraphing" or communicating to the broker that you are going to be a difficult or less than a serious buyer in some manner with the questions you ask prior to going to see the boat. If you do, that will certainly get you the treatment you describe.

Spending time with someone who isn't serious or who is going to ask 10,000 questions and asks for tons of additional data without making a resonable offer is very unproductive for a broker.......they are are commission paid and it serves their purpose better to stay in the office and hope for a "live one" rather than working someone who isn't serious or who is difficut.

To give you an example, you asked me about certain boats in my area in Florida and I told you about one that is like new, extremely well equipped, kept in a covered slip and perfect in every way, and your comment was that it was outside your budget......and that is ok, I understand. Yet, if I understand your above post, the boats you are looking at are apparently in the same price range . If you are sending this type of mixed message to the brokers, that may be part of the answer to your frustration.

My suggestion to you is to learn to differentiate between initial interest and doing due diligence on a boat you may have an interest in. Wait until you find a boat you are serious about before you ask for service records, extra photographs, etc. A good part of getting a broker to work for you is to convince him that you are a serious and qualified buyer. That separates you from any other voice on the phone.

Anyway....its just an observation.

Also, I still think that boat sales tend to be regional. If you call a salesman/broker at our dealership, he's going to be busy. There are a lot of buyers (bottom fishing!) and prices are down. Boats are selling, but they are working hard and having to earn every sale. The one segment of the market that is really sucking now is the convertible or sportfishing market....brokers can't even kidnap a buyer for those bad boys that suck up 80-100 gph of diesel.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 01:29 PM
I understand what you are saying Frank. However, I am talking initial contact only here. Just getting a broker on the phone or getting them to reply to an email is difficult. And no, I do not ask 10,000 questions. It's rare I even ask more than 1 question as it's obvious they do not know the boat so I keep quiet and listen to them tell me about their family, their life, etc. The gas or diesel broker above sat their, in the cabin, and told me the boat had gasoline engines. I told him it did not. he literally, and I mean literally, started to argue with me. I told him to lift the engine hatch, he did (after taking 5 minutes to figure out where the engines were and how to access them), there sat 2 CAT 3116s. he was shocked and apologized.

Another example. We looked at a 450DA in December. It was in fair condition. We liked ti but did not love it. It was our first time boarding a 450DA. In the interim we have seen 2 400DBs we like (not for sale, friends of friends kind of thing). The 450DA broker just listed one on their site but no photos. I called asking for photos, no reply. I emailed asking for photos. No reply. I finally got an email 2 days ago, weeks later, stating they have photos and will try to get them to me soon. Are you kidding me? How difficult is it to send photos of a boat? Still, 2 days later, no photos.

The boat you refer to is over our budget and, if we discover we are going to have to spend that much to get what we like we may bump our budget up. Your comments in the post I read suggested to me it was an older model, which is within our budget, which is why I emailed you. I am still doing some discovery on this model to see what the differences are and to see if an older, less expensive model year will give us what we want. I am not paying $200K for a 2000 boat when a $150K 1996 model fits us. Hopefully that makes sense.

HudsonHauler
08-21-2008, 01:41 PM
In a market like this, if you are dealing with an unmotivated/unknowledgable broker, you should ask for the contact informaton of the manager of the brokerage (at that location or of the overall group if applicable) and copy that person on all emails.

I personally will not deal with someone who won't email as I want a written record of responses. I'm not trying to catch someone in a lie per se, but when things are in writing, there is much less chance of a miscommunication. I bought my boat by email and fax (up to the point where I commissioned a full survey at my own cost and then did a sea trial myself before handing over the check and after the survey report was in hand).

Also, if there are multiple brokers at the seller, keep talking to all of them until you find the one you like. Just because that particular broker was "up" in the door rotation or phone rotation, doesn't mean you need to stick with them if they are inept.

This is a buyers market folks (which in many ways would be good if it passes sooner than later for all our general sake).

Use that leverage to your advantage.

skolbe
08-21-2008, 01:47 PM
I think most brokers only want to work with folks looking for a specific model that don't have a boat to unload.

fc3
08-21-2008, 01:54 PM
After selling stuff for many years (I sold enterprise level software) one can quickly tell who is ready to buy and who is not. It's human nature to skip over work that's not going to make any money.

Considering that so many people aren't ready to buy, the brokers are waiting for the guy who comes in the door with money ready to spend. If you have money ready to spend today, then let them know. "I have $150,000 to spend today. Do you have this boat in ready to buy condition?" If you're still doing research, well, you already know the score.

Best regards,
Frank

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 02:02 PM
After selling stuff for many years (I sold enterprise level software) one can quickly tell who is ready to buy and who is not. It's human nature to skip over work that's not going to make any money.

Considering that so many people aren't ready to buy, the brokers are waiting for the guy who comes in the door with money ready to spend. If you have money ready to spend today, then let them know. "I have $150,000 to spend today. Do you have this boat in ready to buy condition?" If you're still doing research, well, you already know the score.

Best regards,
Frank

So if I hear you correctly I should volunteer my budget, let them know I have secured funds and I am ready to buy today? I thought the first rule of negotiating is to give as little information as you can while getting as much back as you can? Why would I offer my budget?

Me: "I have $150k to spend"

Broker: "heck, we would have taken $130K but lets take his $150K"

CSR_Admin
08-21-2008, 02:08 PM
I consider myself a hard working broker. Been doing it for 11 years and have been successful at it. We get emails all the time about photos, and I do reply to all of them. But honestly, if we had more photos we would have put them on the site in the first place. I can understand most brokers deleting inquiries like this. Today I had a guy send in an inquiry for a sailboat, the inquiry came from our online spec sheet on Yachtworld. Here is his question:

"I am interested in the ----- (listing ID #) on Boats.com. Please send me more information. Thank you."

I am not sure what he wants me to do, make some stuff up that is not on the specs and send it to him?

I think we are all getting spoiled by the information age. When I first started there were not online resources to list every spec of every boat model, so that info needed to be included in the spec sheet we created. Now I think brokers expect buyers will know the basics of boat models they are inquiring on. Who knows......

What I do know is if I could have $5 for every time I get an email asking for more pics I would not need to be working right now. Just for the record, any pics we have are already on the website :grin:

CSR_Admin
08-21-2008, 02:09 PM
Budget is not related to how much you spend on a particular boat. It simply helps the broker direct you towards boats in the price range. Its always one of the first Q's I need answered otherwise we are all wasting each others time.

390pi
08-21-2008, 02:16 PM
Hard to believe in this day and age.

I deal with commercial real estate brokers like this all day long.

They all want the low fruit on the tree. Just laziness. And contempt for the customer.

Perhaps they fail to remember that it is people like us that give people like them jobs.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 02:17 PM
Good feedback, thanks Jim.

In the photos case there are NO photos of the boat so I asked for some, at least 1 maybe. And, on the email questions I never ask something that general. I usually start the dialog with "Why is the boat for sale?" trying to get the sellers motivation. In a recent example I received 2 different answers over the course of a 3-4 months. The first one was "owners wants a bigger boat", then, 3-4 months later when fuel prices were spiking it was "owners wants a smaller boat". I had to pull it out of the broker but he finally told me if it sell it sells otherwise the seller plans to keep using them boat.

I even had a broker recently tell me the boat was priced high because the seller really did not want to sell the boat, but thought it he got $XX.XX for it he would sell it. At least the broker was honest. He even said "this is not the one for you if you are looking for a deal".

douglee25
08-21-2008, 02:26 PM
I would agree with others, let them know your budget upfront. If I'm serious, I start off with.... "I'm looking at model X and Y, here's my budget, and I'm looking to purchase in Z time frame, can you help?" This way the broker has all the pieces of the puzzle. If they choose not to help at that point, then they just lost out on a potential sale.

Doug

gerryb
08-21-2008, 02:28 PM
An observation on the 'picture' issue raised int his thread. I bought a car a few years ago on ebay. The sale listings there, esp. from dealers, have a ton of pictures for the car. You see the door handle, the rims, the lights, sunroof, even the ashtrays. They took the time to take pictures and post them to a web site. How long did it take the seller? I don't know...but I know the profit on the sale of a car is much less than what it is on a 6-figure boat. I may be in the minority, but I would welcome seeing many detailed pictures of the boat I was interested in. It would not 'sell' me the boat, but it is something I would just 'expect' to see as part of the overall sales effort by the dealer.

I'm sure some are going to say I'm comparing apples to oranges and a boat buyer will ALWAYS see the boat and not rely on pictures anyway. True. But the yachtworld ads with 1 stock picture copied from searay's site are really pathetic. Take a look at my good friends at commonwealthboatbrokers.com to get an idea of how to show the pictures. It's really not a big deal. I think I'm going to expand my photography business in NJ to take the boat photos for these brokers if it that much of a burden for them.

chuck1
08-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Good feedback, thanks Jim.

In the photos case there are NO photos of the boat so I asked for some, at least 1 maybe. And, on the email questions I never ask something that general. I usually start the dialog with "Why is the boat for sale?" trying to get the sellers motivation. In a recent example I received 2 different answers over the course of a 3-4 months. The first one was "owners wants a bigger boat", then, 3-4 months later when fuel prices were spiking it was "owners wants a smaller boat". I had to pull it out of the broker but he finally told me if it sell it sells otherwise the seller plans to keep using them boat.

I even had a broker recently tell me the boat was priced high because the seller really did not want to sell the boat, but thought it he got $XX.XX for it he would sell it. At least the broker was honest. He even said "this is not the one for you if you are looking for a deal".

Not sure what type of broker you are using(Buyer or Seller). If it the listing seller broker he should never reveal that information unless the seller has directed him to. Now if it was a buyers broker then I would ask how he knows it since the selling broker should never have revealed the information in the 1st place.

Second point if the boat is priced correctly what does it mater to you why they are selling it. Keep in mind people and circumstances change all the time. The reason the seller was selling a month ago may not be the same reasons now.

Jim, Frank & Frank have all hit the nail on the head with their comments Green balls to all:lol:

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 02:30 PM
An observation on the 'picture' issue raised int his thread. I bought a car a few years ago on ebay. The sale listings there, esp. from dealers, have a ton of pictures for the car. You see the door handle, the rims, the lights, sunroof, even the ashtrays. They took the time to take pictures and post them to a web site. How long did it take the seller? I don't know...but I know the profit on the sale of a car is much less than what it is on a 6-figure boat. I may be in the minority, but I would welcome seeing many detailed pictures of the boat I was interested in. It would not 'sell' me the boat, but it is something I would just 'expect' to see as part of the overall sales effort by the dealer.

I'm sure some are going to say I'm comparing apples to oranges and a boat buyer will ALWAYS see the boat and not rely on pictures anyway. True. But the yachtworld ads with 1 stock picture copied from searay's site are really pathetic. Take a look at my good friends at commonwealthboatbrokers.com to get an idea of how to show the pictures. It's really not a big deal. I think I'm going to expand my photography business in NJ to take the boat photos for these brokers if it that much of a burden for them.

Agreed, +1

tobnpr
08-21-2008, 02:30 PM
I can certainly understand a broker's need to assess the "qualifications" of the buyer so they don't waste time. I'm sure that sometimes they make an error in that assessment that costs them a sale. Last month we were shopping for a new SUV. We went into the local Lexus dealership and were met by a rather "snooty" biatch with an attitude. OK, so I was wearing some crappy shorts, my crocs, and a t-shirt with some varnish stains on it...obviously, she didn't size me up as a "real" buyer. After dealing with her attitude for five minutes we decided to move on... bought an Acura at the dealership down the street the next day.

I do agree with your assessment that many brokers are not knowledgeable. I signed a contract and put down a deposit on a Chris-Craft Convertible based upon the vessel's cosmetics and the broker's statement that the boat was "bristol", "captain maintained" and ready to go despite an absentee owner. Surveyor meets me at the boat, batteries are bone dry (great start). Boat won't plane, engines (both of them) overheat... on and on and on... Sent a nasty email to the brokerage manager, got a call a few weeks later from another broker that had taken over the guys listings as he was "no longer with them".

chuck1
08-21-2008, 02:30 PM
I would agree with others, let them know your budget upfront. If I'm serious, I start off with.... "I'm looking at model X and Y, here's my budget, and I'm looking to purchase in Z time frame, can you help?" This way the broker has all the pieces of the puzzle. If they choose not to help at that point, then they just lost out on a potential sale.

Doug

Big ditto:thumbsup: - Double green balls for you:grin:

fwebster
08-21-2008, 02:37 PM
I certainly can't speak for others with regard to photos, but I did ask our dealer about the absence of detailed photos of boats. The answer was reasonable........they have to load them into their website which then loads to yachtworld.com and another they use. They have space limitations and website speed issues with lots of pictures on a boat. They post 3-4 representitive photos on their site and usually have lots more available if a buyer is serious about learning more about a particular boat.

So there is more to it than just taking pictures.........apparently.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 02:41 PM
I certainly can't speak for others with regard to photos, but I did ask our dealer about the absence of detailed photos of boats. The answer was reasonable........they have to load them into their website which then loads to yachtworld.com and another they use. They have space limitations and website speed issues with lots of pictures on a boat. They post 3-4 representitive photos on their site and usually have lots more available if a buyer is serious about learning more about a particular boat.

So there is more to it than just taking pictures.........apparently.

Not buying that one. I work in the IT industry and I am currently working on a system which will load 40,000+, yes 40,000+ 3-5 MB images in seconds. Databaseas are built for this now a days.

And, on top of that disc space is cheap, boats are not.

chuck1
08-21-2008, 02:43 PM
So there is more to it than just taking pictures.........apparently.


Plus we want the truly interested buyers to contact us so we can sell the product to them.

Sea Gull
08-21-2008, 03:07 PM
Long ago I owned a wonderful little Shamrock 20' cuddy cabin. This boat had many wonderful features, the most interesting was that it was a full inboard. In fact, that is Shamrock's trademark feature.

After listing this pristine little boat for sale, I got lots of calls. Many callers asked what type of outdrive it had. Some would ask what my bottom line price was (before even seeing the boat). After a while I would just hang up.

One day I got a call from a guy who knew all about the boat and had been looking for this exact model. The boat sold within the week.

Maybe you were one of the guys that I hung up on?

fwebster
08-21-2008, 03:09 PM
I'm not selling you anything, Greg. I'm telling you the answer the dealer gave to me.

But, remember, he is in Podunk, Fla. has no IT guys on staff and must contract all his website work to someone else who hosts his site for him, if that is the right terminology.


And a final point: Your comment to Frank C was:

"So if I hear you correctly I should volunteer my budget, let them know I have secured funds and I am ready to buy today? I thought the first rule of negotiating is to give as little information as you can while getting as much back as you can? Why would I offer my budget?

Me: "I have $150k to spend"

Broker: "heck, we would have taken $130K but lets take his $150K"



Sometimes it is what you don't say that is important in the buyer/ broker relationship.

Sometimes I help people buy boats and the way I do it is to bracket the search based on specific listing prices and on the average listing prices on all comparable boats on yachtworld. We don't call or look at those that are significantly over priced. On a first visit or phone call, I will never ask "how much?", "why is the boat for sale?", "how motivated is the seller?" or "what do you think I can but the boat for?" In fact, I carefully avoid discussing pricing. At this point, I am more interested in finding the absoute best boat on the market that fits the needs and budget of the buyer. Often the first discussioin of pricing comes when we call t he broker and say "I'm ready to buy X boat." Doing it this way gets the broker off his usual game and I"ll guarantee you that the seller is going to hear......"They are hard to read, but they are serious". You never find out how motivated the seller is or what he will take for the boat until you sign a contract and write a deposit check. Even if you cut the sellers feet off with a low offer, if the boat is seriously for sale; he will counter thus putting the boat in play.


I know that in today's information age, it is our tendency to analyze the hell out of a purchase like a boat, but unfortunately, these are all negotiated transactions and there are no crib notes or devine message going to give you totally accurate price guidance as if it were a car purchase with guidance based on 100 similar cars sold at last weeks auction. Only a first hand inspection, in person, will tell you if you want to go further. Perhaps that isn't convienent, and perhaps it adds to the cost of a search, but it is certaily the best way to qualify a boat and to convince the broker/seller that you are a serious buyer.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 03:15 PM
Long ago I owned a wonderful little Shamrock 20' cuddy cabin. This boat had many wonderful features, the most interesting was that it was a full inboard. In fact, that is Shamrock's trademark feature.

After listing this pristine little boat for sale, I got lots of calls. Many callers asked what type of outdrive it had. Some would ask what my bottom line price was (before even seeing the boat). After a while I would just hang up.

One day I got a call from a guy who knew all about the boat and had been looking for this exact model. The boat sold within the week.

Maybe you were one of the guys that I hung up on?

" I'm not selling you anything, Greg. I'm telling you the answer the dealer gave to me."

Agreed, that was not directed at you, it was directed at the broker/industry if that is their reply.

I never ask for a bottom line price nor do I offer one if I am the seller, so it's doubtful I ever called you.

We recently purchased a center console and I tried to learn as much as I could on my own. But, in some cases I had to ask some stupid questions. For one I know little about outboard engines. The buyer that answered my questions and was available to show the boat that day got a quick sale. Plus, an educated seller is a good quality IMHO. It tells me they know their product, and most likely took care of it.

I had to teach the buyers of our last boat all about cruisers and outdrives as they were moving from a pontoon boat. Yeah, it was a pain and took a while but in the end they said doing that made the decision to buy from me easier. And I wasted a lot of time on tire kickers, but unlike you I was not financially in a position to hang up on prospective buyers.

comsnark
08-21-2008, 03:21 PM
When I bought my SeaRay. . .there were alot of pictures on Yachtworld. The broker wasn't in the office. . .but they got me in touch with him within 60 minutes. My opening line was "I will be in the area, and would like to see this boat". I saw the boat for the first time 60 minutes later.

Later, when I was really serious, the broker brought the purchase contract to the boat yard where I was painting another boat.

It was that level of service that made the sale happen.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 03:23 PM
These replies are great and informative but I think you are missing my point. How difficult is it to reply to an initial website contact/inquiry email and how difficult is it to answer a phone call? How difficult is it to know just a little bit about the boat/product you are selling? Gas or diesel, get that one wrong, are you kidding me? Give me the keys to a boat you are not even sure where it's slipped? Are you kidding me? No followup with me at all afterwards?

Man, I must be an odd person as I am hearing a message here that says this is acceptable from a broker because of me, it's the potential buyers fault for not approaching the broker exactly the right way. Give me a break.

There was another one this winter where we were going to be in the area and asked if we could stop in to see the boat. The broker was "busy". 5+ more brokers on staff, not one offered to show the boat. They unlocked it and told us to help ourselves. I should note all of these boat we looked at with this poor level of service are still sitting for sale.

chuck1
08-21-2008, 03:32 PM
Later, when I was really serious, the broker brought the purchase contract to the boat yard where I was painting another boat.

It was that level of service that made the sale happen.

That is the difference between a good broker and a so so broker. Service is what it is all about.

Converse48
08-21-2008, 03:33 PM
I have a broker story too… before I purchased my current and 14th boat, we seriously considered buying an aft cabin. Thank God we didn’t but that’s another story. After spending 2 full seasons putting 300+ hours on our previous boat, I had a very precise list of requirements. One of them was that the swim platform needed to be at least 36” deep to accommodate our hard bottom dinghy. I didn’t want a lift. I didn’t want davits. I wanted to pull the damn dinghy up onto the swim platform. I was certain of this, and it was a deal breaker. Therefore, this was a critical piece of information in helping me select the model that I wanted to buy. This is not a measurement that is easily found on the manufacturer’s website, nor is it found in any standard specs that I could ever find.

I called a particularly high strung broker in New Jersey to inquire about a boat he had for sale. My first question after identifying the boat I was inquiring about was “what is the depth of the swim platform”

He barked back, “that is the stupidest question that I have ever heard!”

He went on to tell me that I could not be a serious buyer with such a stupid question, I didn’t know what I was talking about, and I was wasting his time as he “sells 9 out of 10 boats that he shows”.

I said “well that’s funny, because I buy 9 out of 10 boats that I look at. Goodbye”

Click.

osd9
08-21-2008, 03:40 PM
Redline ...

chuck1
08-21-2008, 03:47 PM
These replies are great and informative but I think you are missing my point. How difficult is it to reply to an initial website contact/inquiry email and how difficult is it to answer a phone call? How difficult is it to know just a little bit about the boat/product you are selling? Gas or diesel, get that one wrong, are you kidding me? Give me the keys to a boat you are not even sure where it's slipped? Are you kidding me? No followup with me at all afterwards?

Man, I must be an odd person as I am hearing a message here that says this is acceptable from a broker because of me, it's the potential buyers fault for not approaching the broker exactly the right way. Give me a break.

There was another one this winter where we were going to be in the area and asked if we could stop in to see the boat. The broker was "busy". 5+ more brokers on staff, not one offered to show the boat. They unlocked it and told us to help ourselves. I should note all of these boat we looked at with this poor level of service are still sitting for sale.

Greg,
I understand how you feel, I've felt the same way from time to time, but what I've found is that unless you are serious about buying when you contact the broker they are going to spend as little time as possible with you. They have to make a living too. They are not there to education you about a boat that might not even be for sale when you are ready to buy down the road or you plan on purchasing from somebody else. I'm not saying they should not return calls or emails. As to the 5+ other brokers on staff are you willing to sign a buyers broker agreement with them? If not why would they waste their time on something they may not get paid for.:huh:

Ryan
08-21-2008, 03:52 PM
I said “well that’s funny, because I buy 9 out of 10 boats that I look at. Goodbye”

That made me laugh! I think the real problem here, is one that I face all the time, I hope this is not too off topic, but people fail to listen, I mean really listen. There is a lot to be heard from that is said and not said. I know I am one of the guilty ones, I think I know what is being said before it is said, but I REALLY try to fight my tendency everyday so that I can really listen.

Ryan

comsnark
08-21-2008, 04:01 PM
Redline ...

???

Kameroo
08-21-2008, 04:11 PM
Another perspective... Use a broker as a buyer's agent. Find one who will work with you and help you find the boat you are looking for. We have a good working relationship with a local broker who took the time to answer 10,000 questions and helped us move from 23' to 28' and on to 37' when we were ready. We still keep in touch, and he'll tell the right person about our 37'er when we find the next one.

mrsrobinson
08-21-2008, 04:27 PM
Ok, so I will print off all my bank statements, my retirement account statements, my 2007 tax returns, give them my social security # and my mother's maiden name, tell them my favorite pets name, find a boat that interests us without making a single phone call or sending a single email, walk into the brokers office, hand him a cash 10% deposit, tell him I will buy the boat within 30 days, now will you answer some basic questions? Is that how it all works?

Oh, and per one reply if while trying to sell Mrs. R someone calls with what I think is a basic question I should hang up on them? Please. Life must be real good for you if you can do that.

Count me out then, looks like we will be in Mrs R for quite some time. I am going to have to respectfully disagree with the message some of you are trying to deliver. There is no excuse for not replying to an initial email/phone call or sending me 1, just 1 photo of a boat in a timely fashion.

comsnark
08-21-2008, 04:32 PM
I was treated like that as a new boat buyer.

Buying new is even tougher, because it is not like there is a SeaRay dealer on every block. There was ONE crownline dealer in the state of NJ.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Which is why I ultimately bought used.

ImpulseIII
08-21-2008, 04:47 PM
Greg,

You are being foolish...everyone knows that you do not have to give your favorite pet's name......Now stop screwing around and buy a boat. BUT you cannot buy mine...you ask too many questions!

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm reading this whole thread and I'm a little confused... Are you looking for the broker to sell you a boat? or are you trying to find out what kind of boat you want?

i've shopped two ways 1) tire kicking and just seeing the different layouts and boat types etc... boat shows are perfect for this. 2) I know the boat I want and i'm just hunting for the right one.

On two, I took FrankW's advice (finally) and it was about as difficult as buying a loaf of bread. The broker was just a paper shuffler. All I needed him to do was take my offer to whomever made the final decision. If it was a dealer, "The man" came out to size me up and make small talk. I made my offer, set the terms, and put down money. that was it. Before taking Franks advice, I relied on the broker to tell me what the lowest price was, what they would throw in, payment terms etc... As soon as I changed my way of thinking about the whole thing, It actually became FUN.

Just like Frank told me, don't discuss price until you are ready to sign on the dotted line. Every broker and dealer would throw out numbers from frustration, just to see my reaction to the number. It was really amazing to me how a change of attitude totally reversed the tables. I found that the moment you throw out a number, the deal is done. They are either going to blow you off, or you just paid too much for a boat.

If i'm tire kicking, I just tell them. they throw me the keys and point me in the right direction. That's all i want. If I'm ready to make an offer on something I want, I just need them to hand me a contract. I'll fill it out.

William Miller
08-21-2008, 05:03 PM
I bet if the seller knew this they wouldn't be too happy and pull their listing.
Sounds like a gatekeeper.

I sometimes don't understand why sellers use brokers.
When I was looking, seriously looking, there were all kinds of games being played.

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 05:07 PM
If Frank W would just write a damn book on boat buying, everyone would buy it, and boat buying would be fun for everyone.

Hampton
08-21-2008, 05:12 PM
After reading all of this, I'm looking forward to my next boat purchase. I feel like I got a really great deal on my current boat, but probably not as good as I could have gotten. My biggest problem was that I shopped for so long (and flew to Miami twice) that once I had decided, I'm not sure I was willing to walk away.

The broker did tell me on the phone that they had nearly closed at "$XX0,000" but the buyer couldn't come up with the coin. So, even if that was total BS, I knew what I could get it for. That's what I ended up paying, minus a few thousand in detailing, polishing, canvas repair, prop tuning... On account of it being the lowest price on yachtworld, and getting a few thou more off of the price, and being the boat we wanted, and getting good leads on financing, insurance, and licensing from the broker, who could say no?

Dancin Dave
08-21-2008, 05:14 PM
Greg, I'm ready to buy. I just need to find the right boat. That means I go look at boats. I've recently flown to VA, AL, and driven to AC. No boat. Keep looking.

My banker tells me this has been the busiest August on record for writing boat loans, go figure. Dont assume the boat brokers are not busy. They are, and as anyone in business knows, a qualification takes place with every phonecall. Especially when it is busy. If an ad is complete as Jim states, ask more questions other than what airport to land in and you just have been disqaulified.You will not get the time of day.

Pictures, if there are not any, beware. And sometimes pictures are old anyway. cant trust them, must see boat.

Local and internet shopping wont fit the bill in my opinion, you must venture out.

My boat came from the south and my previous boat was sold to someone in the south.

Man I like the south, time for some sweet tea!

bye now

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 05:19 PM
Between Dancin' Dave's boat, and Frank H's boat, I'm in itis hell.

fwebster
08-21-2008, 05:21 PM
Dave,

See you at the boat at 10AM......................!

Dancin Dave
08-21-2008, 05:29 PM
Frank, youre on!

Newbie
08-21-2008, 05:51 PM
I consider myself a hard working broker. Been doing it for 11 years and have been successful at it. We get emails all the time about photos, and I do reply to all of them. But honestly, if we had more photos we would have put them on the site in the first place. I can understand most brokers deleting inquiries like this. Today I had a guy send in an inquiry for a sailboat, the inquiry came from our online spec sheet on Yachtworld. Here is his question:

"I am interested in the ----- (listing ID #) on Boats.com. Please send me more information. Thank you."

I am not sure what he wants me to do, make some stuff up that is not on the specs and send it to him?

I think we are all getting spoiled by the information age. When I first started there were not online resources to list every spec of every boat model, so that info needed to be included in the spec sheet we created. Now I think brokers expect buyers will know the basics of boat models they are inquiring on. Who knows......

What I do know is if I could have $5 for every time I get an email asking for more pics I would not need to be working right now. Just for the record, any pics we have are already on the website :grin:

This is exactly what I don't understand about brokers. I build custom homes for a living and only make about double per house what a broker will make on a 150k sale. The time I have into building the house, answering questions and coming back for a whole year afterwards is a whole lot more than any broker has to deal with with any single sale. If your looking to make 15g's or 2k for that matter on a sale, get the damn pics :huh: What does it take anyhow? A drive to the boat if its close or a call to the owner for a request? Anything less in my opinion is pure laziness. Saying you don't have them doesn't cut it for me. Tell me you can get them but it may be a few days or whatever. I can't understand why a broker wouldn't have anything less than 100 pics of a sizable boat he has listed? Do they not inspect the boat themselves before listing it? If so, BRING A CAMERA!! and spend an extra 10 minutes with it.

When I was looking for a 340 a few months ago, I dealt with many brokers who were just downright lazy. No matter what they think, you cant judge a person from their clothes or whatever. Every single call or email should be considered a potential sale, simple as that. Nearly all I dealt with didn't understand this concept. The one who finally did became a buyers broker for me and got his sale eventually. What I have learned is that it seems to be the younger, newer brokers who work harder. The guys who have been at it for years seem to think their s**t no longer stinks, maybe it didn't a few years ago but the market has changed and its time for them to also change.

Just as a note, this was not exactly directed to Jim personally, just my general take on brokers on the whole. SB

Dancin Dave
08-21-2008, 06:14 PM
Greg, if your budget is 150 k and you want a turn key boat I'm thinking diesels are not in your near future. I would perhaps consider a turn key gas boat. For instance a super clean 40' sundancer with twin gas engines. tnt lift and everything. try 99k, maybe you could get it a bit lower. If your not cruising vast distances, you dont need the diesels.

Let me know, cause if you buy it, the seller will buy mine.

firecadet613
08-21-2008, 06:38 PM
I don't understand the whole deal, and I've been there, done that. I never heard back from half the brokers I emailed back when I was shopping. I ended up finding a boat for sale privately 500 miles away. A member of another forum I'm on even volunteered to go and check it out, and took 60 detailed pics of the boat for me before I made the trip out there. I'm sure the people who are using lazy brokers sure wish they knew they were lazy...

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 06:51 PM
This is what i don't get, the number of pics everyone feels they need. Even though your friend went and snapped 60 pics, you still had to go down and see it for yourself. I would think 3 pics would be more than enough to decide if you wanted to see it in person. outside, inside, ER. that's all I need to see to decide if I'm going to make the trip to see it in person. I don't need a pic of the toilet, each and every seat, the steering wheel.

comsnark
08-21-2008, 07:02 PM
Well, since I am on a quest for Red Balls today. . . .

. . .I think pictures can serve two primary purposes:

1) Confirm that the boat is not grossly neglected (i.e.; floating in the slip as opposed to sitting in mud at the bottom of a slip)

2) Confirm major options on the boat. When I shopped, I found that the descriptions could be less than informative, but if you have a PICTURE of the options. . then you know what the boat has. Examples includes a engine pic to confirm the type of engines, pic of the seating to verify which seating arrangement the boat has.

Not sure a picture could confirm details on boat condition.. . .unless it was REALLY bad.

Woody
08-21-2008, 07:14 PM
This is what i don't get, the number of pics everyone feels they need. Even though your friend went and snapped 60 pics, you still had to go down and see it for yourself. I would think 3 pics would be more than enough to decide if you wanted to see it in person. outside, inside, ER. that's all I need to see to decide if I'm going to make the trip to see it in person. I don't need a pic of the toilet, each and every seat, the steering wheel.
If you were selling your boat and firecadet(a buyer from 500mi away) asked for more pics what you going to say "I sent ya 3, if you want more take em yourself". What is unreasonable about asking for pics? Granted 60 is overkill but you know what I mean.

Newbie
08-21-2008, 07:27 PM
This is what i don't get, the number of pics everyone feels they need. Even though your friend went and snapped 60 pics, you still had to go down and see it for yourself. I would think 3 pics would be more than enough to decide if you wanted to see it in person. outside, inside, ER. that's all I need to see to decide if I'm going to make the trip to see it in person. I don't need a pic of the toilet, each and every seat, the steering wheel.

I sold my 260 myself in less than one week. When I delivered the boat to him I told him I was surprised it sold so quick. His reply was that my 70+ pics I linked to in my ad was what made him more interested in it than the yachtworld listings with three. Why make a call to ask what airport to fly into if the broke/seller won't give you the time of day? I can understand your logic if the boat is across town but not when 100's of miles away. Work ethics sure have gone to h*ll in our country :huh: SB

CSR_Admin
08-21-2008, 07:33 PM
A broker will make about $3,750 on a $150K sale. Thats assuming there are no survey adjustments the brokers have to kick in for.

If that boat is 500 miles away, and the listing broker is 100 miles away from that boat, do you expect him to go take a few more pics for you? Sometimes sellers sign up for your services and they are in far away places. We get listings from places like Smith Mountain Lake where there are no brokers, we never even see some of those boats. The sellers just use us because of our market knowledge and marketing.

Also, I have a hard time believing that inquiries on boats from sites like Yachtworld are not getting responses. Brokers pat a crapload of money to be on those sites and take those leads seriously. There are hundreds of other sites out there that take listings from Yachtworld, or offer free ads or whatever. If you inquire on boats from these sites you will likeley not get a response as the ad is no longer valid. For example, a bucnh of boats we once had are on seeboat.com. There is nothing I can do about it. They copied the listings and alll of those boats have since sold but are still listed as active on seeboat.

Newbie
08-21-2008, 07:43 PM
[quote=admin;133123]A broker will make about $3,750 on a $150K sale. Thats assuming there are no survey adjustments the brokers have to kick in for.

If that boat is 500 miles away, and the listing broker is 100 miles away from that boat, do you expect him to go take a few more pics for you? Sometimes sellers sign up for your services and they are in far away places. We get listings from places like Smith Mountain Lake where there are no brokers, we never even see some of those boats. The sellers just use us because of our market knowledge and marketing.

quote]

No I don't, I expect him to get the pics from the seller who is assumed to be near the boat and keeping it in good shape to be shown. If the seller wants to sell, he'll send the pics. At the same time do you expect the buyer to go 500 miles on 3 pics? I'm sure you know how misrepresented alot of listings are or just how completely ignorant many brokers are as to what they have listed. If you can't show me pics of whats claimed to be, why should I bother to make the trip? SB

chuck1
08-21-2008, 07:49 PM
This is exactly what I don't understand about brokers. I build custom homes for a living and only make about double per house what a broker will make on a 150k sale.

What kind of custom homes are you building for $150K.

Newbie
08-21-2008, 07:53 PM
BTW, the whole asking for pics and not recieving was my first mistake on buying my 340. I asked for them on an 05 but never recieved them. I really liked the boat though and was told he couldn't make it to get the pics so I took the brokers word for its condition. When I flew in for the survey/sea trial, it was nothing like advertised. Come to find out the brokers office was 15 minutes away, he was lazy. I wasted about 2500 between airfare, lodging, rental car, survey and haulout. And on top of it the broker was pissed that the survey took a full 8 hours and not 3. I was happy he didn't get a cut of my money and he lost the listing from the seller, all from the lack of pics :grin: SB

firecadet613
08-21-2008, 08:00 PM
A pictures worth a thousand words. There was a major difference between the few general pictures the seller took, compared to the 60+ detailed pics my friend took. Those up close pics made me sure I wanted to make the drive, and ended up selling the boat.

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 08:10 PM
it has nothing to do with work ethics. It has to do with time and available resources. Most of these brokers are one man shows. They don't have a staff of people running around answering the phones and snapping pics for every inquiry. Nor do their clients want to pay for those resources. They want their boat sold for a little out of pocket expense as they can get away with. Sure there are crappy brokers and good brokers, but I can guarantee that if you take Franks approach, there will be no mistaking you for a blow off buyer.

See the difference? one approach you rely on the broker to sell you a boat. The other approach is you buy the boat. There is a difference.

Converse48
08-21-2008, 08:17 PM
Redline ...
Ding Ding Ding

vanburen
08-21-2008, 08:19 PM
I've found this to be a lot like the rest of life - a compromise. I've bought three Sea Rays from the same dealer and same salesman.

I think many of us who like boats, sportscars, or other hobby items, want to buy them from someone who:
Loves the product
Owns one themselves
Knows a ton about it etc
Cares about the buyer and understands our situation - kids, wives etc.

Unfortunately, the people selling these items, and those buying, almost by definition, are not the same. So this feel good dream is impossible.

My dealer is certainly imperfect. Knows nothing about diesels. Doesn't know details. DID own a 340 for a while and is a boater himself. HATES my kids (all kids) (I can tell, but he hides it). Does try to connect with us - birthday cards, periodic check ins - and now with the 420DB - is tracking all issues and checking in frequently - very good. He's not perfect, but I know his program, and he is better than many.

CSR has helped tremendously in getting the critical details. But - to someone's earlier point - he asked for some seriousness - and took a 5K deposit (that is like 1-2%) to take the boat off the market. After that- I had his attention even though it was fully refundable.

So, I think if it feels horrible - don't bother. If it feels great, rejoice. If it's ok - get a good deal.

gerryb
08-21-2008, 08:45 PM
Well, since I am on a quest for Red Balls today. . . .

. . .I think pictures can serve two primary purposes:

1) Confirm that the boat is not grossly neglected (i.e.; floating in the slip as opposed to sitting in mud at the bottom of a slip)

2) Confirm major options on the boat. When I shopped, I found that the descriptions could be less than informative, but if you have a PICTURE of the options. . then you know what the boat has. Examples includes a engine pic to confirm the type of engines, pic of the seating to verify which seating arrangement the boat has.

Not sure a picture could confirm details on boat condition.. . .unless it was REALLY bad.

I looked at a boat whose YachtWorld ad said it had cockpit AC but one of the 4 pics showed the vents missing. I asked about this discrepancy. The ad was wrong.

Another boat...I emailed asking for the list of options on the boat as hardly any were showing on the yachworld ad and they were so abbreviated as I couldn't figure out what it meant. The listed broker copied and pasted from the crappy yachtworld ad text and send that back to me. (Another broker sent me the build slip from the manufacturer - the right response to the inquiry..)

But the worst is the complete lack of response to email and voicemail including, I'm sad to say, to some of the brokers who participate on the board here at CSR. Just nuts...:huh:

I think most people selling boats today are stuck with a 70's mentality. It not just the pictures... It's the whole game... Buying a car 20 years ago was similar but that industry changed since then as the foreign cars ate into the business. I was shopping for cars a while back and was very impressed with the sales techniques and processes now employed, including the use of technology and better than expected communication, sales training, attention to detail, product knowledge, etc. I don't agree with the view that the broker is only trying to qualify you as a buyer, hence all the games upfront. That's a sorry excuse for a sales strategy. No offense to the brokers on the board but there is great room for improvement here...

Bel_Mar_Pointe
08-21-2008, 08:48 PM
Bought my first boat last year and found two kinds of brokers in my search. Those who sell boats and those who expect boats to sell themselves. Not sure how some of them actually make enough money to buy groceries with their disinterested approach, nor do I care, but they didn't see my money just land in their lap. Show me you have something to sell and I MIGHT buy.

spimik
08-21-2008, 09:25 PM
After reading all of this, I think I may give up my honest sales job which requires me to respond to each and every inquiry with great enthusiasim and effort and become a boat broker. I mean really, it sounds pretty cool.

You simply stand up and do a little paperwork once a serious buyer plunks down a wad of cash sight un-seen!

And to think, I've wasted 25 years of my life as a hard working, responsive, cross my t's and dot my i's sales professional! Gosh!! I should have joined this site years ago and saved all that hard work getting back to each and every potential client that every took the time to ring my bell, text me a message, call my office or wave me down at the Piggly Wiggly!

A very well respected and well heeled sales pro once talked and wrote about the theory of 21- it takes 21 calls/follow ups/attempts to make a sale. I guess the boat brokers skipped that class.

Good Luck everyone. I think I'll just keep doing factory orders and take the depreciation up the waa-zoo. It's worth every penny to avoid a broker.

gerryb
08-21-2008, 09:30 PM
After reading all of this, I think I may give up my honest sales job which requires me to respond to each and every inquiry with great enthusiasim and effort and become a boat broker.

Mike, it's not too late. Don't believe all this negative talk about the boat industry and lagging sales. MarineMax is looking for a bunch of sales people, $80K to start.

http://careers.vurvexpress.com/joblist.cfm?szWID=16593&szCID=74670&szSiteID=1731&txtFromDate=&txtToDate=&cboTitle=Sales+Consultant&cboDepartment=&cboLocation=&txtKeyWord=

spimik
08-21-2008, 09:32 PM
Mike, it's not too late. Don't believe all this negative talk about the boat industry and lagging sales. MarineMax is looking for a bunch of sales people, $80K to start.

http://careers.vurvexpress.com/joblist.cfm?szWID=16593&szCID=74670&szSiteID=1731&txtFromDate=&txtToDate=&cboTitle=Sales+Consultant&cboDepartment=&cboLocation=&txtKeyWord=

When I finish this current journey that I am on, the next will involve either real estate sales or boat sales.

ylwjacket
08-21-2008, 09:43 PM
I'll give you a little seller perspective.

First, every buyer out there right now thinks that, regardless of your asking price, they are going to buy your boat for 50k less than the asking price. After awhile, you get jaded with the "can I get a few more pictures of this and that" inquiries. It is no small effort to run to the marina to do that. I personally am tired of the "I am in the area, and would like to see your boat in an hour" BS. I can not drop everything I am doing at a moment's notice to drive an hour to my boat whenever some idiot asks me too.

I have spent more time with people than I care to mention that are "serious" on the phone, then when they show up, they "have never been on this model before" and are comparing a bridge boat to cruiser or something. God that pisses me off. I waste my tikme, driving over there, to deal with some fool is there because their favorite cartoon is over on Saturday morning.

Or, after wasting 2 hours of my time, the best question "you wouldn't be willing to trade for a 1989 30 Sundancer?". Are you kidding me? Why the hell did you show up and waste my time with that as your last question?

I had a buyer from Mexico who showed up. I had to leave my office to go meet him, which I told him. I told him I had about 45 minutes with him, and had to get back to work. After an hour, he asked to for me to run it out. I refused, and told him to make me an offer first. He persisted, saying this was his only trip to the states to look. I relented (huge mistake), and went for about a 20 minute ride. I told him before he came that I had already rejected 2 offers at xxx,xxxx, and he had to do better than that, because I didn't want to waste his time. After the joyride, he took another 30 minutes to try to negotiate an offer for 25k less than I had told I had rejected. This turned into a 3 hour total waste of my time - time I could not spare from my work.

I imagine that brokers, who deal with more than 1 boat, have these issues as well.

You don't have to be jerk about it, but you have to differentiate yourself as a buyer. If you are serious, you think they owe you something because in your mind, you are serious. On my end, I am ready to get lost at sea or crash into a jetty for a total loss and an insurance claim. Buyers, on the whole, are pricks, and I'm sick of them.

The problem is, for every 1 serious person, there are 20 that are out killing a day, and killing my time with it. I hate those people for wasting my limited God-given heartbeats to indulge their stupid fantasies.

It is very difficult to tell over the phone which you are. You have to make yourself stand out.

Just a seller's perspective, that may help you buyers understand why, after awhile, people don't jump to attention because the guy on the other end of the phone is "serious".

I forgot, so I might as well add - Why do you care why someone is selling? I have reasons, but after explaining it 30 times, I just now say "I'm getting out of boating". Inside, I'm thinking "it's none of your business". I am sick of answering that one too. Probably seems like casual conversation to you, but to me, that's like saying "I'm not serious, and I'm going to offer you half of your aksing price, just to see if you're desperate". Come up with a new opening line. I'd rather someone said "I think you're an a@$%^, but your boat is the model I've been looking for". I'd have more respect for them, and probably take them more seriously.

So, there's your answer as to why everyone doesn't heed your beckoned call. Act real, and they'll treat you real back.

Newbie
08-21-2008, 09:55 PM
After reading all of this, I think I may give up my honest sales job which requires me to respond to each and every inquiry with great enthusiasim and effort and become a boat broker. I mean really, it sounds pretty cool.

You simply stand up and do a little paperwork once a serious buyer plunks down a wad of cash sight un-seen!

And to think, I've wasted 25 years of my life as a hard working, responsive, cross my t's and dot my i's sales professional! Gosh!! I should have joined this site years ago and saved all that hard work getting back to each and every potential client that every took the time to ring my bell, text me a message, call my office or wave me down at the Piggly Wiggly!

A very well respected and well heeled sales pro once talked and wrote about the theory of 21- it takes 21 calls/follow ups/attempts to make a sale. I guess the boat brokers skipped that class.

Good Luck everyone. I think I'll just keep doing factory orders and take the depreciation up the waa-zoo. It's worth every penny to avoid a broker.

Do you really have Piggly Wiggly's in Kingston? SB

CSR_Admin
08-21-2008, 10:05 PM
But the worst is the complete lack of response to email and voicemail including, I'm sad to say, to some of the brokers who participate on the board here at CSR. Just nuts...:huh:



Which ones? Let's "out" them! :grin::smt038 What model were you looking to move up to that has cockpit air?

Turtlesboat
08-21-2008, 10:12 PM
hahahaha this thread is awesome. We should make this a sticky

keokie
08-22-2008, 12:00 AM
Some great comments here. Ultimately, I do believe some effort needs to be made to demonstrate you are a serious buyer (I differ significantly from Frank W in what that effort should be).

However, I have been in sales at various levels for all of my professional career. There is a difference between selling and order taking. If I pay a broker to list my boat, they better be willing and able to answer detailed questions to a prospective buyer. I would grant modest leeway in regards to buyers that appear insincere. But beyond that, I would expect good faith effort.

mwph
08-22-2008, 01:11 AM
I just read and enjoyed the entire thread and although my purchase was far less than the $150k examples, the principals remain the same and there are valid points on both sides of the deal.

Why would you ask the broker the reason the seller wants out? Are you going to believe his answer? Really? What value is there in the answer anyway? "Oh, he's moving up in size". Does that mean he wants to take a acid bath on this deal? Its like asking your wife if she needs all those clothes. No matter what her reply is ..............so what!

Keep in mind I am a realitively new to boating but lets not fool ourselves into thinking that boats are this unique and mysterious world in which outsiders could never understand. Boats, houses, airplanes, race horses. These things are bought & sold everyday. Hell, I even heard of one deal going down with out a broker!

Two things I suprisingly found lacking though were these...

1. Broker is an upscale word for salesman. A broker, sellers OR buyers, is a salesman. There is a reason he is not called a fair-deals-man or a show-n-tells-man. He is a salesman. He does not want to hold your hand while you decide which layout is right for you. He prospers when boat deals go down. Not when boat deals are talked about. Sure some are hungrier than others and will be more accomidating. So what.

2. As far as setting the tone to let him know you are serious, check this out... when he was "feeling me out" on our first encounter he suggested I might want to talk with a finance guy to establish a true price range. I looked him dead in the eye and said "No need. I am the finance guy. This will be a cash deal". He retrieved some cold waters from the fridge and proceeded to show me three boats that day.

Yeah, he "brokered" the deal...........At the end of the day, He helped Bob "sell" the boat & he helped me "buy" the boat.

JCSAM
08-22-2008, 04:15 AM
The problem with brokers is just like any other customer service employee. They have none I walk in to a place of business and they look at you and decide weather they want to do business with you. It should be the other way around. Don't judge me by how I look or the questions I ask. It took us a year of boat shows and dealers and lots of questions before we made our decision. Treat eveyone the same. Customer Service is something most business in this country lack.

spimik
08-22-2008, 05:57 AM
Do you really have Piggly Wiggly's in Kingston? SB

No, but on while on vacation in the States a few years ago I was approached in the parking lot. (I always letter my company vehicle.)

It was just someone looking for some "advice" and we chatted. I had no chance to make so much as a dime from this individual and I was on vacation with my family. It doesn't hurt to be nice.

spimik
08-22-2008, 06:06 AM
I'll give you a little seller perspective.

Buyers, on the whole, are pricks, and I'm sick of them.

The problem is, for every 1 serious person, there are 20 that are out killing a day, and killing my time with it. I hate those people for wasting my limited God-given heartbeats to indulge their stupid fantasies.


Ahh- my theory of 21! 20+1=21 Not sure what you do for a living, but I bet it ain't sales. (And if it is, I bet you are enjoy a monopoly in whaterver it is you do sell) In selling this is an accepted ratio. The reality is, when you stick a for sale sign on anything, be prepared for everyone from nosey neighbors to tire kickers to ex cons stopping by for a look. It is part of the "sales process". As they say in real estate, every house will eventually sell. There is a buyer out there. It just may take time. When we sold our first home years ago, we had over 115 visits, plus 4 Open Houses. It was a unique little home that required the right couple. They finally showed up. Showing a home/boat 100+ times is alot of work. It needs to be clean and it will be a hassle, however, the right buyer will eventually show up.

If you don't want to invest the time showing the boat, then why not hire a friend, a retired neighbour, etc. to do the showings. You can take the call, but tell your friend that you will toss them some coin when the boat sells. They may love the idea of having something to do.

You can't sell from an empty wagon.

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 06:56 AM
"The problem with brokers is just like any other customer service employee. They have none I walk in to a place of business and they look at you and decide weather they want to do business with you. It should be the other way around. Don't judge me by how I look or the questions I ask. It took us a year of boat shows and dealers and lots of questions before we made our decision. Treat eveyone the same. Customer Service is something most business in this country lack."

Should be? Customer service? They are selling man, commisions. Not new friendships, or engagement to be married, they have something to sell and its not theirs So if you walk, you may miss a good boat.When buying you must deal with the crap, but the sellers reps deal with the same crap. My boat is listed on yachtworld, so far there has been over 2000 hits, imagine if 25% of the lookers asked for additional photos.

Rich122
08-22-2008, 07:03 AM
Great thread, so here's my 02 cents. There is "precieved" fault on both sides of the sale. That being laziness on the sellers part in not knowing the product, and laziness on the buyers part in not knowing what he wants. The best advise I read today was Turtle's "lessons learned via Frank W). Shop on your own and know what you want prior to contacting a broker or private seller. And this works for used and well as new boats. With each boat I bought and with each trade up I would hit the boat shows and spend hours looking and feeling, then would ask a few key questions to the salesperson that was aboard. When I was ready I had a detailed list of options in a prioritized order. When I bought Fra Diavlo last October it was through the dealer I have bought all my boats from so they know me. I don't like wasting my time and I don't waste others, they had 3 hulls all varying in price. (close price) I gave them my priorities (white hull/black canvas on top down to TNT on bottom) and they picked the one hull that fit. Deal was done in 20 minutes.

The best waste of time...being on the boat you love. (until the next one comes along).

Rich

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 07:11 AM
I think everyone really is missing Franks point here.

One of my favorite movies of all time is Glenn Gary Glenn Ross. When Alec Baldwin is talking to the sales team and he repeats the saying "Always be closing". If you haven't seen the movie, it's fantastic.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 07:36 AM
"Shop on your own and know what you want"

So if I think I like a new car based on the commercials I should not visit the dealer until I am prepared to leave a deposit and buy? I cannot go to look at the car to see if I like it? Interesting.

The boats we like simply do not exist in our area. So how do I see them other than photos and the internet to decide if this model interests us? How do I know the differences between model years without asking questions?

It appears obvious to me there is a price point somewhere that puts the buyer in a position where they need to reveal a little more information than they would below that price point, in order to get the broker to talk, heck just to get the broker to listen. Example, we purchased a 1998 Center Console 3 weeks ago. The seller never asked me what my budget was. He never asked me for a deposit to look at it. Same thing when we purchased our 330, listed at $85,000. I was never once questioned on my budget nor was I ever asked for a deposit first. The broker showed me the boat, answered my questions and, get this, he actually knew the boat and it's history....image that.

So, what is that price point? $100K? $150K? At what price point does a broker actually take the time to learn the boat, take pictures and respond to inquiries? Or, is it more "does this guy have money" ?

And, you will never be able to sell me the "I am too busy" answer. We all have the same 24 hours...it's about priorities. If it's a priority to you you will find the time. "I don't have enough time" or "I am too busy" is a lame as it gets. Then find another job/career because the one you chose is obviously not for you.

William Miller
08-22-2008, 07:44 AM
This may be a little off topic, but:

How buyer's brokers work?
Is it like in real estate where the commission is split? Co-op?

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 07:45 AM
Greg, Watching the process of you buying a boat is like having my fingernails ripped out. I mean that in a loving way.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 07:47 AM
Greg, Watching the process of you buying a boat is like having my fingernails ripped out.

You have a choice, don't watch. :-)

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 07:59 AM
but I already bought the popcorn.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 08:02 AM
Yeah, but you can close your eyes when it's gets ugly or scary.

comsnark
08-22-2008, 08:18 AM
I'll give you a little seller perspective.

First, every buyer out there right now thinks that, regardless of your asking price, they are going to buy your boat for 50k less than the asking price.

<snip>

I personally am tired of the "I am in the area, and would like to see your boat in an hour" BS. I can not drop everything I am doing at a moment's notice to drive an hour to my boat whenever some idiot asks me too.

I have spent more time with people than I care to mention that are "serious" on the phone, then when they show up, they "have never been on this model before" and are comparing a bridge boat to cruiser or something. God that pisses me off. I waste my tikme, driving over there, to deal with some fool is there because their favorite cartoon is over on Saturday morning.

<snip>

I imagine that brokers, who deal with more than 1 boat, have these issues as well.

You don't have to be jerk about it, but you have to differentiate yourself as a buyer. If you are serious, you think they owe you something because in your mind, you are serious. On my end, I am ready to get lost at sea or crash into a jetty for a total loss and an insurance claim. Buyers, on the whole, are pricks, and I'm sick of them.

<snip>



I really, really sympathize.

But. . . aren't all these hassles the reason you hire a broker? And I would expect the broker to be local to the boat so the broker COULD take care of inquiries easily and in an efficient manner.

- - - - - --
And yes. . . some shopping has to be speculative. Visiting boat shows are not enough. I went to a number of shows to gain information. Shows are a great help. . .but only a few models show up to the shows. And then you have to deal with the 35 other people who are poring over the boat while you are onboard.

I was leaning towards 25+' cuddies. . I saw exactly TWO at shows. Neither was a SeaRay. And I saw these boats 12 months apart! If I was looking for a 240SD or some other small boat. . .yeah, boat shows would have been enough. But for something larger? Leg work -by the buyer- is required. Some of that legwork involves asking brokers to see boats.

Alex F
08-22-2008, 09:06 AM
IMO majority of brokers have very laid back attitude. This must just something that related to the nature of the boating industry. This thread had many very good and educational points. I think that in the end the process comes down to few major points:

Is this the boat you see yourself owning?
Does the boat fits your budget?
Do you feel comfortable making the deal with this broker/seller (level of professionalism, attitude and communication)?If all three answers are “Yes”, I’m proceeding with the attempt to purchase the boat, providing that everything on it checks out fine and we agree on the final price.

If I read correctly, in mrsrobinson’s case the issue is with #3. This is huge downside. If you don’t have communication and you have hard time getting simple information like extra pics, how do you expect anyone to feel comfortable attempting to purchase anything from this broker/seller?
From my experience, it’s a screening process for both parties. Brokers want to get “hungry” buyer and we want to get “hungry” broker/seller. I work only with brokers that are willing to treat me as a potential buyer, have good communication and respond to my questions. If we have communication, I can wait a day or two to get more pics or any other info that I need, b/c I understand that it’s a process and the info has to come from another party(the boat owner). But, the main thing is if the broker is willing to work with me I’ll give him the time to get me what I need.

I’ve read many posts here defending brokers in different areas. Granted that sometimes there’re technical issues like no IT department and storage issues, but this is not an excuse not to provide the information asked by a potential buyer. It may just take longer. Yes, it’s part of the job and buyers expect that from brokers. I’m from NY/NJ area and I have been involved in sales. Things have different pace here and being treated as a serious buyer is expected anytime. For me, any person in front of me, on the phone or via email is a potential buyer. I will always give everyone a chance to show me how serious they’re and take it to the next level (a step closer to making a deal). But, I would do anything to make them feel comfortable to make that step. So, it’s very frustrating to see how majority of brokers work. I alsways wander how they stay in business.

Mrsrobinson,
I had very hard time finding a combination where I could say “yes” to those top questions while searching for 320DA. I searched the whole east coast. I made hundreds of phone calls. Then, I’ve found one broker in FL that was very different from all other laid back (super screeners) brokers and he communicated with me constantly. This guy didn’t have exact boat I wanted at the time, but he felt that I’m serious and it’s a bout finding a boat that I like for the price. The key was COMMUNICATION. This guy took his time and after proposing few boats, there was one I liked and proceeded with the purchase. The only way I can see buying a boat from any broker that’s giving me hard time on simple things is if the boat is extremely cheap. At this point you just have to ask yourself what’s more important, save chunk of money and deal with the pain or move on?

Best of luck in your search,
Alex.

douglee25
08-22-2008, 09:13 AM
Another thing to keep in mind is can you afford a boat at the present asking price, or are you hoping that you can afford the boat after you negotiate on the price?

A broker will more than likely be able to tell this from his/her past experiences. If you can afford it before negotiations, it puts you in a better position.

Doug

chuck1
08-22-2008, 09:15 AM
This may be a little off topic, but:

How buyer's brokers work?
Is it like in real estate where the commission is split? Co-op?

Yep, but as in real estate not always a 50/50 co-op.

When I first started looking at Sea Rays I was thinking of a 30+- foot cruiser and keeping my 16' run about. Based on my budget I know I would be in the used market. I meet with a couple brokers and the one that know the product and I could work with became my buyer broker. He was with MM. I was very honest with him and told him my spec and budget. He lined things up for me that was worth driving 2-3 hours to see and keep me informed as new deal came on line. Sometime he was there with me sometimes he was not. As my plans changed and I decided the cruiser was not right for me at the time. He made adjustment in what he showed me. I ended up buying a new 240SD from MM that he could not sell, but part of the deal was that he got a split on the commission.

Being a realtor I understood the value he brought to the table.

Greg - Have you ever dealt with a broker you liked?

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 09:17 AM
my typical conversation that i like to have with a broker when I look at boats.

Me: Hello, do you have xyz boat for sale?
broker: yes
Me: where's she at?
Broker: over there (points in general direction)
Me: thanks (I walk towards boat)

quality time
08-22-2008, 09:19 AM
For me, the broker does nothing more than the paperwork. I know exactly what I want and if I want to pursue his boat before making contact. I could care less if he is an a$$ or not. I can deal with that for the small amount of time the deal takes compared to the length of time I will own the boat.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 09:24 AM
"Greg - Have you ever dealt with a broker you liked?"

Yes, there was one in FL, sellers broker, who impressed me. He went out of his way to share details on the boat, most of which I did not even asked for. I felt like he answered every question honestly. He usually got back to me within 1-2 days. I actually felt bad not moving forward with a purchase.

I have asked questions as simple as "Is the interior cloth or vinyl?" when there are no photos and I get "I do not know". "Is it cherry\maple veneer or the white". "Don't know, I'll have to ask the owner". I even had one tell me the owner was not responding to his calls so he could not help me.

Pakmule
08-22-2008, 09:28 AM
my typical conversation that i like to have with a broker when I look at boats.

Me: Hello, do you have xyz boat for sale?
broker: yes
Me: where's she at?
Broker: over there (points in general direction)
Me: thanks (I walk towards boat)

If I could find out the location of the boat without even talking to the broker I would do that.

chuck1
08-22-2008, 09:33 AM
I have asked questions as simple as "Is the interior cloth or vinyl?" when there are no photos and I get "I do not know". "Is it cherry\maple veneer or the white". "Don't know, I'll have to ask the owner". I even had one tell me the owner was not responding to his calls so he could not help me.

If the boat was local to the selling broker that is not acceptable. The selling broker/agent should have knowledge of the product he is selling. If the boat was not local a simple I'm not sure but will find out and let you know. A good broker/agent should ask what type of interior are you looking for, along with your other specs. so he can find your perfect boat.

Woody
08-22-2008, 11:32 AM
So if I hear you correctly I should volunteer my budget, let them know I have secured funds and I am ready to buy today? I thought the first rule of negotiating is to give as little information as you can while getting as much back as you can? Why would I offer my budget?

Me: "I have $150k to spend"

Broker: "heck, we would have taken $130K but lets take his $150K"
If your afraid of this scenario there are alot of other ways to get let him know your position...how about this as a response to their budget inquiry....I'm looking for a 20xx 45' Dancer and am aware of the price range they're in, do you have any of them to show me. I never felt buying was that hard. Sometimes you deal with jerks, sometimes you don't. If they have what I want I really don't care what their personality is(there have been a few exceptions).

comsnark
08-22-2008, 11:44 AM
The way I have always answered is simple:

"My budget varies based upon the boat."

If I am looking in detail at the boat, then that means I can afford it. Of course. . .nowadays that may not be the case, since from other posts on this board it appears common to offer 70% or less than the asking price even on used / brokered boats.

I don't mind working with Jerks. . . however, if the broker is a jerk it will be an impediment. For example. .if a broker won't return your calls, it will be much more difficult to make an offer if you actually want to do things like "see the boat".

Rich122
08-22-2008, 11:53 AM
Greg

You missed the part where I said shop of hours looking. No you don't buy on commercials. you go and do the field work yourself, and when you know exactly what you want, then you look for that vessel and can contact a broker and say I'm ready, done my reserch and the vessel you have seems to fit my needs, give me your time.

And boats are not cars, the money involved reguires you to do as much research yourself as you can. Why? Because I'm sure like the rest of us, us trust your own judgement best when it come to your own needs.

comsnark
08-22-2008, 12:10 PM
Well of course you need to do research. . .but how do you do that research? For me, it would involve calling brokers and visiting boats. The internet is fine to understand specs and values. Boat shows are fine to understand basic features of whatever boats a dealer choses to bring to a show.

But if you want to see how you and the admiral fit in the salon of an older boat. . .how else are you going to do it other than calling a broker and making an appointment?

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:16 PM
Greg

You missed the part where I said shop of hours looking. No you don't buy on commercials. you go and do the field work yourself, and when you know exactly what you want, then you look for that vessel and can contact a broker and say I'm ready, done my reserch and the vessel you have seems to fit my needs, give me your time.

And boats are not cars, the money involved reguires you to do as much research yourself as you can. Why? Because I'm sure like the rest of us, us trust your own judgement best when it come to your own needs.

From your last post

"Shop on your own and know what you want prior to contacting a broker or private seller. And this works for used and well as new boats. With each boat I bought and with each trade up I would hit the boat shows and spend hours looking and feeling, then would ask a few key questions to the salesperson that was aboard. When I was ready I had a detailed list of options in a prioritized order. When I bought Fra Diavlo last October it was through the dealer I have bought all my boats from so they know me. I don't like wasting my time and I don't waste others, they had 3 hulls all varying in price. (close price) I gave them my priorities (white hull/black canvas on top down to TNT on bottom) and they picked the one hull that fit. Deal was done in 20 minutes."

Show me a boat show where I can find 3 1996 - 1999 Sea Ray 400DBs where I can select my canvas color and I will go. We went to the Annapolis Boat Show this year, but, unfortunately a new $500k+ boat is not in our budget. I am glad for you that one was and your dealer takes such good care of you. Perhaps if I flashed $500K in front of him he would talk to me. Please, take a look at your boat, it's a 2007 48 Dancer..not even close to used and not even close to our price point. Of course you are going to get the brokers/dealers attention. Plus you have purchased from them in the past so they know your financial situation. IMHO, you cannot even compare the 2.

This goes right back to my earlier post...there is a price point where a broker needs a little more from you to give you the time of day.

I think it's funny, that in general, the big expensive boat owners replying to this thread have all suggested this is my issue, not the brokers. Basically saying "Well if you had the big bucks you'd get special attention". "If you showed them what's in your wallet they will talk to you". "Why are you making them work when you may not even buy the boat".....gee, let me see, cause it's their job maybe?

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 12:28 PM
. . .I think pictures can serve two primary purposes:

1) Confirm that the boat is not grossly neglected (i.e.; floating in the slip as opposed to sitting in mud at the bottom of a slip)

Sorry Comsnark, no way. old photos, sisterships. Only best photos shown.

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 12:36 PM
yeah Greg, it's just the big boat buyers that get to buy boats they want.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:47 PM
yeah Greg, it's just the big boat buyers that get to buy boats they want.

Never said that.

I am saying Rich122 walking into a dealers office and me walking into a dealers office are two different cases. He is walking in with a history of buying boats from that dealer, probably more expensive ones than I, so the dealers knows him and knows his situation.

If I were to walk into the same dealer, 1 hour after him, I guarantee you I would not get the same treatment even if I used the exact same words/comments he did. They do not know me, I do not have a history with them and they are busy trying to size me up in 30 seconds or less so they can get back to their coffee.

Now I bet you the fact that he has purchased boats from them before, probably ones more than $150k, got him some special attention.

comsnark
08-22-2008, 12:47 PM
. . .I think pictures can serve two primary purposes:

1) Confirm that the boat is not grossly neglected (i.e.; floating in the slip as opposed to sitting in mud at the bottom of a slip)

Sorry Comsnark, no way. old photos, sisterships. Only best photos shown.

Fair point . . .but I don't think I insinuated in any way that photos take the place of visiting the boat. The photos are only for *initial* screening in my mind.

In general, the photos *should* represent the actual condition of the boat. You are always vulnerable to seeing a photo of a boat in a show room and upon inspection finding the boat at the bottom of a slip. . .

Woody
08-22-2008, 12:48 PM
Useing the price point theory the same thing should have happened to Rich122 because he wasn't looking at $2 million boats. MrsRobinson there has been good advice given.

keokie
08-22-2008, 12:50 PM
Wow!!! I think we have thoroughly beat this topic to death.

I'm pretty certain that buyers who can demonstrate they are willing and able to buy will get better attention.

I am very certain that responsive brokers will sell more boats.

Excuses by either party will not help. The thing is, our excuses only work on us. Brokers don't care if a buyer finds it inconvenient to demonstrate seriousness. And buyers don't care if a broker thinks it is too difficult to learn about what he/she is selling or be attentive to possible buyers.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:50 PM
Useing the price point theory the same thing should have happened to Rich122 because he wasn't looking at $2 million boats. MrsRobinson there has been good advice given.

So you are disagreeing with me? It's not about the price of the boat? So if I call one of these brokers now asking questions on a $10,000 boat I should be prepared to give them my budget and a deposit BEFORE they will talk to me or show the boat? Please.

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 12:52 PM
"Why are you making them work when you may not even buy the boat".....gee, let me see, cause it's their job maybe? NOT!
__________________
Greg, their job is to sell a boat. Not entertain every inquiry. odd as it may sound, not every call is a lead. Again, boats are unique and a "qualification" takes place. good or bad thats the way it is. sometimes they make a mistake, but if the inquiry was valid they will be back.

Rich122
08-22-2008, 12:54 PM
Greg you original thread was an observation (and a true one for you and most) about what seems to be a non interested broker, and has turned to a debate off track. All I was trying to say is both sides (seller/buyer) can't do the work for the other. The broker wants to make his sale with the least amount of effort, and there are some buyers (not you) that want to be spoon fed, and most likely be PITAS later when things aren't "just so".

And on a last note, if you or anybody is dealing with a dealer that treats you in direct relationship to the amount you spend, then walk away. The reason I have stayed with this dealer is they treated me like gold from the first boat I bought (under $100k). They had no idea what my future plans were. I expect that, because that's how I treat my customers. the smallest gets the same service as the largest, the newest as the oldest. They get my very best effort, and I want the same in return.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:54 PM
"I'm pretty certain that buyers who can demonstrate they are willing and able to buy will get better attention."

I am professional and respectful enough to not waste anyone's time, including my own, unless I am willing and able to make the purchase. I do not spend my days Googling boats I cannot afford only to email the brokers and bother them.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:56 PM
Greg you original thread was an observation (and a true one for you and most) about what seems to be a non interested broker, and has turned to a debate off track. All I was trying to say is both sides (seller/buyer) can't do the work for the other. The broker wants to make his sale with the least amount of effort, and there are some buyers (not you) that want to be spoon fed, and most likely be PITAS later when things aren't "just so".

And on a last note, if you or anybody is dealing with a dealer that treats you in direct relationship to the amount you spend, then walk away. The reason I have stayed with this dealer is they treated me like gold from the first boat I bought (under $100k). They had no idea what my future plans were. I expect that, because that's how I treat my customers. the smallest gets the same service as the largest, the newest as the oldest. They get my very best effort, and I want the same in return.

Well said and I agree.

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 12:57 PM
You're right Greg, do you feel better now?

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 12:59 PM
You're right Greg, do you feel better now?


I feel fantastic, thanks for asking

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 01:03 PM
"Treatment", "gold", "attention" who gives a damn, its not a popularity contest, i'm not looking for a new "friend". Wheres the boat, I want to look at it, show me the boat. make offer or walk away.

To much glamour

Woody
08-22-2008, 01:04 PM
Yes I am. I bought three boats in three years and never once did anyone ask me what my budget was. I knew what I wanted, I knew I was willing to spend what they cost and I let the sales people know those two things. I put it on them to show me what they had.

Still LauCo
08-22-2008, 01:05 PM
Greg you original thread was an observation (and a true one for you and most) about what seems to be a non interested broker, and has turned to a debate off track. All I was trying to say is both sides (seller/buyer) can't do the work for the other. The broker wants to make his sale with the least amount of effort, and there are some buyers (not you) that want to be spoon fed, and most likely be PITAS later when things aren't "just so".

And on a last note, if you or anybody is dealing with a dealer that treats you in direct relationship to the amount you spend, then walk away. The reason I have stayed with this dealer is they treated me like gold from the first boat I bought (under $100k). They had no idea what my future plans were. I expect that, because that's how I treat my customers. the smallest gets the same service as the largest, the newest as the oldest. They get my very best effort, and I want the same in return.

I completely agree with this logic.

And more importanty, what I read was that at one point you had a <$100K boat, and that gives me hope to own one like yours! And yes, I am CERTAIN that would get my dealers attention!:smt038

MrsRobinson- I think you are in line with expectations, and I think also it is a good gauge to what future issues and service would be like. Whoever the broker is should be trying to knock your socks off with service if you are showing sincere interest.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 01:07 PM
"Treatment", "gold", "attention" who gives a damn, its not a popularity contest, i'm not looking for a new "friend". Wheres the boat, I want to look at it, show me the boat. make offer or walk away.

To much glamour

Bingo

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 01:11 PM
Stilllauco, what issues or service are you referring to, were talking brokered boats. Once its yours its all yours. No more broker involvement.

Newbie
08-22-2008, 01:11 PM
Greg, heres how I got their attention. Once I found a broker I liked and was willing to work with, I made a deposit to their escrow account. He didn't even have a boat I was considering but I decided to use him as a buyers agent. From that point on you would assume there would be no question whether or not I was serious, but in this business, most are lame as the corner used car salesman. A few didn't care to deal with my broker at all because they didn't want to split commissions and many who didn't have time to answer questions or prove with pics what was stated in the add. It was more of the "fly 700 miles to see for yourself because I don't have time" attitude. In the end, my broker busted ass to get me what I wanted and made his money. In return I got one hell of a deal on a near perfect 03 340. My approach worked out good for me since there were nearly 200 boats to choose from, I didn't have to deal with the lazy ones because there were several other boats in the sea to choose from. Because of my good experience with him, he will also sell a boat in the 45-60ft range to my father in the next year or so unless he buys new.
I am amazed at those here who defend the lazy ones out there. You either have a wide variety to choose from in your area, money to burn, or havent yet been burnt with misleading ads. Out of 2000 hits to an ad, if 500 asked for additional pics, is it really that hard to send them? If you don't have them ready then yes. If you are prepared, not at all. The first thing that should be done when selling is a file of pics ready to be e-mailed at any given notice or a link to something like photobucket with a slideshow. Sending out 5 or more links or files a day is not at all hard with the great internet given to us by Al Gore. Expect what you'd like from your broker as long as its not your boat sold quickly because you don't have higher expectations of him. When I sell my boat, if my broker can't take the time to make mine stand out from the crowd, I'll find another. SB

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 01:45 PM
I feel fantastic, thanks for asking

Great!

Keep us updated on your perfect broker hunt.

But don't sell the 330 just yet, you may need it for awhile.

Four Suns
08-22-2008, 02:02 PM
Someone needs to stick a fork in this... it's done...

Why not one of you photoshop guys take this picture:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/341015423_a2868c2ec4.jpg

and put it on the bunny head.

comsnark
08-22-2008, 02:02 PM
"A boat in your slip is better than two at the dealer's dock"

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 02:02 PM
Great!

Keep us updated on your perfect broker hunt.

But don't sell the 330 just yet, you may need it for awhile.


I was not looking for the perfect broker, however, if I find one, I will be sure to post the details for the group.

Still LauCo
08-22-2008, 02:12 PM
Stilllauco, what issues or service are you referring to, were talking brokered boats. Once its yours its all yours. No more broker involvement.

Dancin Dave,

For instance, on my boat the GPS antenna went bad within the first month I had it, and they came out and replaced at no charge. Same thing with the genny battery.

This was not something written in the contract, but my dealer realized this was not my first nor last boat, and has tried very hard (even 2+ yrs after owning it) to make sure I am very satisfied with THEIR service... That's all...

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 02:12 PM
Let me see, is 12 > 9...yup

http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11237&page=9

So at 12 can we stick a fork in this one too? ;-)

GJarrett
08-22-2008, 02:28 PM
Yeah, and besides I just ran out of popcorn..... time to get back on with our lives.

jg300da
08-22-2008, 02:32 PM
I think what this thread needs is my own unique perspective....and as soon as I find it I'll be sure to share.
Until then feel free to keep repeating yourselves.

chuck1
08-22-2008, 02:46 PM
What, I go away for 3 or 4 hours doing some real work and there is 3 more pages. I need more popcorn.:lol::smt043:lol:
Now where is that bunny, here bunny, bunny:thumbsup:

Dancin Dave
08-22-2008, 03:00 PM
Stillauco, nice relationship! Stick with them. Very unique dealer. Generally with a brokerage you will not see this. Kudos to them

Pakmule
08-22-2008, 03:08 PM
We're going to need more popcorn.

First Born
08-22-2008, 03:11 PM
I am not even going back to read 13 pages of this, if you said something to offend someone oh well don't let it happen again. :grin:

I think it is pretty simple. If you don't like the way the broker is handling the sell then don't use them. If someone like Frank tells you how they have helped many people on this board buy a boat all of which come back and say numerous times how much they appreciate it and how easy and impowering it was, and you don't like the advice don't use it, if you don't like the boat don't buy it, if you don't like this board, don't use it. Everything in life is a choice, you choose it.

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 03:14 PM
I am not even going back to read 13 pages of this, if you said something to offend someone oh well don't let it happen again. :grin:

I think it is pretty simple. If you don't like the way the broker is handling the sell then don't use them. If someone like Frank tells you how they have helped many people on this board buy a boat all of which come back and say numerous times how much they appreciate it and how easy and impowering it was, and you don't like the advice don't use it, if you don't like the boat don't buy it, if you don't like this board, don't use it. Everything in life is a choice, you choose it.

Who is this directed at?

mrsrobinson
08-22-2008, 03:15 PM
Dancin Dave, what's the calendar/note with the push pin under your name all about? Just curious.

First Born
08-22-2008, 03:18 PM
Who is this directed at?

Everyone :huh:

330DA
08-22-2008, 03:18 PM
My last boat was located about 4 hours away. I told the broker this was the boat/model that I had been looking for a few years. I asked the broker to send me a few pics of the ER. I got my ER pics and about 20 pics in total with very good detail. Ultimately, we bought it. Service means something different to everyone, I guess.

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 03:45 PM
Yeah Wes, someone posted nude pics somewhere in the middle of the thread.

Pakmule
08-22-2008, 03:50 PM
Yeah Wes, someone posted nude pics somewhere in the middle of the thread.

Well not so much nude as containing a banana hammock

Nehalennia
08-22-2008, 03:56 PM
I saw nasty pics of my boat from the Craigslist ad I saw. My First instinct was to pass, it looked pretty haggard. This was not a brokered boat but my point is that boat "DOES" need to be looked at first hand regardless of the amount of pictures.

Once I saw it, and made my serious offer, is when the real negotiations began. Some may remember that thread, but it was YOU GUYS(especially Frank) that kept me in the game that this one was worth pursuing, saved me a ton of money....and a "taking Pants Down" class.

I agree that making it clear you're interested in buying a specific boat or buying a boat in general, rather than tire kicking to get the attention you want.

Best of Luck

My 260DA is For sale for $785,000. Jim, will you take my boat on brokerage contingent towards that 52' you just listed?....then I'll just have to figure out a way to afford to propell it through the water.

comsnark
08-22-2008, 04:18 PM
I am not even going back to read 13 pages of this, if you said something to offend someone oh well don't let it happen again. :grin:

Actually, the debate has been quite mellow in my mind.

At least this is boating related, as opposed to discussing something like, say, Olympic Level Women's Beach Volleyball.

CSR_Admin
08-22-2008, 04:20 PM
My 260DA is For sale for $785,000. Jim, will you take my boat on brokerage contingent towards that 52' you just listed?....then I'll just have to figure out a way to afford to propell it through the water.

I will not deal with you until you are a serious buyer Mr. :wow: :grin: No soup for you!

Nehalennia
08-22-2008, 04:41 PM
I will not deal with you until you are a serious buyer Mr. :wow: :grin: No soup for you!

You sell my boat for $785,000.00 I'll give you 50%



Sign HERE:

X_________________________________________________ ___

(I may not buy the 52' after that though, if you want me to buy that one, standard brokerage fees apply.)

keokie
08-22-2008, 05:41 PM
This thread is a train wreck. I don't want to keep looking. I just can't help it.

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 05:50 PM
Hey, where did everyone go? hello? Is it friday?

fc3
08-22-2008, 08:16 PM
Everyone :huh:

Never worked with a broker. Bought my boats new and traded the old ones as part of the deal. So... no thanks! Leave me out.


Someone needs to stick a fork in this... it's done...

Why not one of you photoshop guys take this picture:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/341015423_a2868c2ec4.jpg

and put it on the bunny head.

I don't photoshop anymore, but how about this (http://www.worthalaugh.com/2008/08/07/stick-a-fork-in-him-hes-done/) for sticking a fork in? That had to hurt!

Can't say which is more painful. This thread or a fork up the nose. Gotta go find a quarter and toss it.

Best regards,
Frank

ylwjacket
08-22-2008, 08:23 PM
You know, I wish you well in your search, honestly.

Truth be told, I need to sell because I am addicted to Guitar Hero, Aerosmith edition. Now you know. I hope that somehow factors into your buying decision.

I do have a broker on my boat, but that doesn't mean it's painless for me all the time. In my examples before, some of those were me, some were the broker. If he blew off leads, as a seller, I would find another broker. He keeps me informed, and I'm aware of every inquiry, no matter how ridiculous. And some of them are.

As for the rule of 21's - there is a big difference. As a SALESMAN, you are calling on people, trying to sell them your item. They say yes or no, and you move on. If you are a salesman, you are qualifying your leads so you don't waste your time.

As a SELLER, people who have no intention whatsoever of actually doing anything other than wasting my time show up for the pure hell of it because they are bored at home, which is wrong.

Just yesterday, I was set to advance to Level 6 on expert, and I had to run for a showing. I was in the groove, and I can't quite get my fingers limber enough to get back there today. Dammit. I was ready to unlock some more songs too.

It is easy to get jaded. You don't have to show your Platinum Card, but some questions are more meaningful than others, and tend to point you into whether this buyer is meaningful or not.

In fact, I have found some of the most insincere buyers to be the ones who show up under the pretense of "this is a cash deal". Guess what - they are all cash deals to me, it's just a matter of who writes the check. That doesn't impress me a whole lot.

The broker absolutely should be responsive, but a buyer should not be wasting their time either. They are trying to sort out the posers from the knowledgable buyers.

Boats are different from other commodities you buy, at least in some classes of them. Almost nobody buys a 50 foot boat on a whim as their first boat. If the buyer has a clue, they get credit. If they act like they are looking at a ski boat, and have never seen anything larger than an innertube, they are worthless.

If someone says "I'm comparing Sea Ray's Express Bridge to a XXXX", that's OK too - at least I know what I'm dealing with. Lying to get on my boat and waste my time is unforgivable. Steven Tyler, Joe Perry and the boys get angry when I am away too long.


Not sure what you do for a living, but I bet it ain't sales. (And if it is, I bet you are enjoy a monopoly in whaterver it is you do sell) .

Actually, you don't know.

Turtlesboat
08-22-2008, 08:42 PM
I don't photoshop anymore, but how about this (http://www.worthalaugh.com/2008/08/07/stick-a-fork-in-him-hes-done/) for sticking a fork in? That had to hurt!


Best regards,
Frank

Kids a little cross eyed, or as the say in Nantucket "He was born on a Wednesday looking both ways to Sunday".

Four Suns
08-22-2008, 08:42 PM
Truth be told, I need to sell because I am addicted to Guitar Hero, Aerosmith edition. Now you know. I hope that somehow factors into your buying decision.




:smt043

fc3
08-22-2008, 08:45 PM
Not sure what you do for a living, but I bet it ain't sales. (And if it is, I bet you are enjoy a monopoly in whaterver it is you do sell) .

I did sales.One does not sell boats the same way one sell houses, or the way one sells airplanes, or the way one sells enterprise software. Totally different approaches for each despite that they are all large 5 to 7 figure deals. What do you sell, since you seem to profess expertise in all aspects of sales?

Best regards,
Frank

Four Suns
08-22-2008, 08:47 PM
He sells insecticides to Michiganders

fc3
08-22-2008, 08:51 PM
Interesting

No not really

First Born
08-22-2008, 10:25 PM
I didn't know Gary had a blog when he was a kid too, and he was still getting hurt. :huh:

Carver370
08-24-2008, 02:29 AM
I read all 15 pages of this.

I am a boat broker.

I feel for the poster of this thread because the reason that the company I work for was started is the exact reason for the posting.

All of our brokers are boat owners and have been burnt or not impressed by some of the other brokers out there and figured we could do it better. Our company is only 5 years old and 2nd largest on Lake Michigan. That says enough.

Returning calls, in all honesty there should be a broker there to answer the phone. Hell even our cell phone numbers are posted on the website to get a hold of us any time, I frequently get phone calls at all hours of the night or out on my personal boat and have to come in to show a boat. I am not going to lie and tell you its a pleasure to show a 300K boat to somebody who is only willing to pay 140K for it. This also goes for all of the other unreasonable requests we get either but at the end of the day it still needs to be responded to in a timely fashion.

Being a broker myself please take it from me, we hear fromm "Market Experts" daily about what they think the boat in question is worth. In all honesty we may feel the same as you do on certain occasions but at the end of the day WE do not price the boat, the OWNER prices the boat at what he wants it listed at. We give him soldboat data as well as whats on the market right now but if he wants it listed 40K higher than the others then thats his decision not ours.

Chances are if you are looking for a boat in Illinois, Michigan, or Indiana you have run across our listings. We believe in a ton of pictures, DETAILED information on that exact boat (not one like it) and we even do virtual tours on some of our boats to give you a real walk through of it. Does this sell our boat before another? Probably not but if you are even remotely interested in that model you better believe that you know everything about that boat before you even get there!

Regarding when you call a broker, do what you want but take some tips from me with a grain of salt.

-Immediately asking why the seller is selling or saying that the price is way too high and should be X amount is disqualifying you as a buyer in the brokers mind.
-The broker literally has NO control over the listing price of the boat, like I stated earlier if the owner wants it listed at a certain price you better believe thats what its listed at. If it were up to the brokers you know the prices of the boats would be VERY competitive and probably the lowest out there so they will make a sale.
-I myself understand that if there are no pictures or info that you should be able to get it in a timely fashion. However we have usually 100 or so pictures and detailed information online ready for your review, if its not online we dont have it. If it is something that you particularly want to see and we don't have it, I will get it.

As for putting a certain amount of pictures online on yachtworld, that is complete BS. I place all of my own listings online as well as a few computer illiterate brokers that work for us online. It takes just about a full day to get 1 boats pictures and information on yachtworld alone. VERY time consuming but it pays off in the end.

This is by no means a plug for my company but I felt the need to add my own two cents. As in any business there are good ones and bad ones out there, you just need to weed through and get comfortable with 1.

I became a member of this site because I am in the process of buying a Sea Ray Sedan Bridge but also to gain knowledge from some of the members for my own use as well as using this knowledge when showing or selling a particular Sea Ray. Most brokers are not just sitting around drinking coffee and watching youtube!

Bel_Mar_Pointe
08-24-2008, 11:02 AM
What a difference from the "buyers are a pain in the ass" post from a previous broker.

Turtlesboat
08-24-2008, 11:05 AM
did you see the YouTube stripper pole video?

Carver370
08-24-2008, 11:50 AM
Yes, with a cup of coffee in hand.

Actually just saw it at Michigan City boat show, I walked by another booth and a broker was watching it.

ylwjacket
08-24-2008, 02:10 PM
What a difference from the "buyers are a pain in the ass" post from a previous broker.

That was probably from me, but I am not a broker. Brokers should not get tainted on my account.

fc3
08-24-2008, 05:27 PM
So having never really spoken to a broker, I thought I'd go and check out Mr. Lazy Pants. Just so happens that I pass a brokerage near my marina on the PWC going between my marina and the ramp I use. They had a nice blue-hulled 420 on the lot right near the water, so... watch out birds! I have a stone.

Told him I wasn't ready to buy, just looking to get a feel of what's on the market. Also said that I was afraid that I'd take a beating on my 330, since people probably don't want gas hogs. He went out of his way to offer to show the 420, despite that I didn't ask him, he gave me information and a couple sheets about the boat, gave me a run-down on the market, told me what's selling and what's not. Then today he left a message on my cell phone with the selling prices of other 330s.

So for my survey of boat brokers (OK one boat broker) I found 100% to be knowledgeable, out going, and hard working. I also was looking like crap when I went in. Just back from a 60 mile ride on the PWC, running up to 70 MPH and still wearing my shorts, Aquapalooza tee shirt, water shoes, and driving my 300,000 mile Navigator with the Sea Doo on the back. So not looking like I had a few grand, much less a few hundred grand to spend.

Best regards,
Frank

PS
The 420 was nice. Clean inside and out. Needed some buffing of the blue hull since there were some light white scratches. Otherwise in nice shape. $269k

Bel_Mar_Pointe
08-24-2008, 05:41 PM
That was probably from me, but I am not a broker. Brokers should not get tainted on my account.

Well.....we all know that buyers can indeed be a pain in the ass, especially boat buyers. We just don't like being told so. There is a sense of connection with a boat, unlike most other products, so we search for that boat that we connect with. Then we upgrade it, polish it, name it and develope a relationship with it. Maybe not the best way to descibe it, but for many it is their "baby". Thus, we CAN be a pain in the rear in our search for the "right" one. :smt001

fc3
08-24-2008, 08:23 PM
Well.....we all know that buyers can indeed be a pain in the ass, especially boat buyers. We just don't like being told so. There is a sense of connection with a boat, unlike most other products, so we search for that boat that we connect with. Then we upgrade it, polish it, name it and develope a relationship with it. Maybe not the best way to descibe it, but for many it is their "baby". Thus, we CAN be a pain in the rear in our search for the "right" one. :smt001

Mistress would be a better word than baby. My wife has suggested mistress. Seems fitting. Hmm. Might name my next boat that.

Best regards,
Frank

CSR_Admin
08-24-2008, 08:31 PM
Told him I wasn't ready to buy, just looking to get a feel of what's on the market. Also said that I was afraid that I'd take a beating on my 330, since people probably don't want gas hogs. He went out of his way to offer to show the 420, despite that I didn't ask him, he gave me information and a couple sheets about the boat, gave me a run-down on the market, told me what's selling and what's not. Then today he left a message on my cell phone with the selling prices of other 330s.


Sounds like a typical visit to our office. Any broker I am personally friends with would handle you the same as well. Too bad there are some bad apples out there.

Four Suns
08-24-2008, 08:39 PM
Some will even let you borrow their truck!

fc3
08-24-2008, 08:45 PM
Sounds like a typical visit to our office. Any broker I am personally friends with would handle you the same as well. Too bad there are some bad apples out there.

..and they all have Greg's phone number.

Four Suns
08-24-2008, 08:53 PM
What you really need to do now Frank is go back and introduce yourself as "Greg Robinson" and see if they run for the door.

Pseudomind
08-25-2008, 05:41 AM
So if I hear you correctly I should volunteer my budget, let them know I have secured funds and I am ready to buy today? I thought the first rule of negotiating is to give as little information as you can while getting as much back as you can? Why would I offer my budget?

Me: "I have $150k to spend"

Broker: "heck, we would have taken $130K but lets take his $150K"


I have to completely agree with you mrsrobinson

I also am one who whole heartily endorses having a survey, performed. I found a 2002 for lets say for $110,000.00 which had after market manifolds installed which were shot. This was discovered in the survey.

The owner was willing to replace the aftermarket manifolds with another set of aftermarket manifolds. Which I did not want to have done, so we haggled and reached an agreement. I agreed to pay $114,000.00 and we have the aftermarket manifolds replaced with the original Mercruisers.

At first look it may seem as if I am losing on this deal, but the Mercruiser parts are for each engine $2,970.00 approximately, with a flat period of labor for 7.4 hours. The labor for both engines actually worked out to just under 14 hours @$115.00 per hour

:thumbsup:

fc3
08-25-2008, 07:33 AM
I also am one who whole heartily endorses having a survey, performed. I found a 2002 for lets say for $110,000.00 which had after market manifolds installed which were shot. This was discovered in the survey.

After seeing how third party manifolds perform, I would have had the jugs bore scoped to ensure there was no damage. Those manifolds and elbows are worse than junk because they'll take the engine with them to failure-land.

Best regards,
Frank

mrsrobinson
08-26-2008, 08:15 AM
I have to completely agree with you mrsrobinson

I also am one who whole heartily endorses having a survey, performed. I found a 2002 for lets say for $110,000.00 which had after market manifolds installed which were shot. This was discovered in the survey.

The owner was willing to replace the aftermarket manifolds with another set of aftermarket manifolds. Which I did not want to have done, so we haggled and reached an agreement. I agreed to pay $114,000.00 and we have the aftermarket manifolds replaced with the original Mercruisers.

At first look it may seem as if I am losing on this deal, but the Mercruiser parts are for each engine $2,970.00 approximately, with a flat period of labor for 7.4 hours. The labor for both engines actually worked out to just under 14 hours @$115.00 per hour

:thumbsup:

"I have to completely agree with you mrsrobinson"

Thanks, looks like I have at least one friend on this post ;-)

osd9
08-26-2008, 08:35 AM
.....I called a particularly high strung broker in New Jersey to inquire about a boat he had for sale. My first question after identifying the boat I was inquiring about was “what is the depth of the swim platform”

He barked back, “that is the stupidest question that I have ever heard!”

He went on to tell me that I could not be a serious buyer with such a stupid question, I didn’t know what I was talking about, and I was wasting his time as he “sells 9 out of 10 boats that he shows”.

.....

Go ahead....call on this one....ask a few questions and record the call.....then put it up on youtube.....:smt043

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=1950474&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=redlinemarine&&ywo=redlinemarine&

hack4alivin
08-26-2008, 08:43 AM
Go ahead....call on this one....ask a few questions and record the call.....then put it up on youtube.....:smt043

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=1950474&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=redlinemarine&&ywo=redlinemarine&


Too late.... alreay SOLD. Darn:smt021

Turtlesboat
08-26-2008, 08:57 AM
Go ahead....call on this one....ask a few questions and record the call.....then put it up on youtube.....:smt043

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?&units=Feet&id=1950474&lang=en&slim=broker&&hosturl=redlinemarine&&ywo=redlinemarine&

hahahaha. that's funny.

CSR_Admin
08-26-2008, 09:31 AM
Redline is not a broker so he doesn't really count. He's a wholesaler, you basically only call guys like that if you want to buy something in their inventory. They are not the type to help you find a boat or answer Q's as to what is the right boat for you.

beernutz
08-18-2009, 03:18 PM
A broker will make about $3,750 on a $150K sale. Thats assuming there are no survey adjustments the brokers have to kick in for.

If that boat is 500 miles away, and the listing broker is 100 miles away from that boat, do you expect him to go take a few more pics for you? Sometimes sellers sign up for your services and they are in far away places. We get listings from places like Smith Mountain Lake where there are no brokers, we never even see some of those boats. The sellers just use us because of our market knowledge and marketing.

Also, I have a hard time believing that inquiries on boats from sites like Yachtworld are not getting responses. Brokers pat a crapload of money to be on those sites and take those leads seriously. There are hundreds of other sites out there that take listings from Yachtworld, or offer free ads or whatever. If you inquire on boats from these sites you will likeley not get a response as the ad is no longer valid. For example, a bucnh of boats we once had are on seeboat.com. There is nothing I can do about it. They copied the listings and alll of those boats have since sold but are still listed as active on seeboat.

Well believe it. I have been shopping for my first ever boat over the summer (I'm 50) and responded via email to 2 different yachtworld ads asking for more information such as number of engine hours if it was omitted or the gelcoat or interior condition and never got a reply. After not getting a reply to an email on the boat I was most interested in on yachtworld, I called the broker and left a voicemail telling them I was a cash buyer and wanted a return call to answer some basic questions about the boat. That call is still unreturned over a month later. Maybe the fact that I was looking at boats in the $20K-$25k range made me not worth their time, but then why run the ad? Heck, even if the boat had already sold aren't I worth at least a courtesy call or email?

Another broker story: I called a broker in a costal city about an hour away a couple of weeks ago wantingto look at a particular boat they had on boattrader. We got there early Saturday morning and it had been pouring down raining all the way over. I don't know if it was because of the rain or the economy but the entire hour we were there I saw no other customers. So we walk to the warehouse and look at the boat I'd called about and the broker count not have been more disinterested if he tried. I knew more about the boat than he did. He could not use the excuse that I didn't look like a serious buyer because I was driving a one week old brand new car still with paper dealer tags (thank you cash for clunkers!) and my wife and I were nicely dressed. Better than he was anyway. His non-caring attitude and total ignorance about the boat was baffling.

I ended up dealing with a great salesperson at a local MarineMax who found me a nice used Sea Ray well under my stated budget but which fit my needs. This guy called me at least once a week for almost two months and was never pushy or abrupt with me once.

mawyatt
08-18-2009, 04:07 PM
When we went to get our first SR185 at MM they treated us like we had purchased a million $ boat! We took delivery on Sat and they had our names on the big billboard, took pictures of the family under the billboard and boat, took us out to go over everything on the boat and let everyone drive, hooked up the trailer to the van and sent us off with a full tank of gas and a spotless new SR185...and they handed us our pciture framed in a nice frame! They have been very helpfull after the purchase as well.