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Steve500dancer
09-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Saturday I was running my 1996 Sea Ray 500 at about 1400 RPM when I noticed my port side engine smoking a bit. I checked my gauges and everything was good, 50 PSI oil pressure and 165-170 degrees. I thought that it may have been loading up a bit with fuel. I opened her up to about 1800 RPM and noticed her smoking even more. I also noticed that both water temps were climbing up to about 175 -180. I immediately shut her down and dropped anchor. I have not had any issues with smoke of any color on my port engine, I thought the temp rise may have been due to over filling the coolant the day before. I topped it off and filled the over flow tank 1/3 full. The starboard engine took about 2 gallons to top off and fill the overflow. The port took about 1 gallon to top off and fill the over flow tank.

I let the engines cool back down and checked everything I could think of then fired it back up. No smoke on fire up and the temps both dropped to 160 degrees. When I gave the port engine some throttle she started smoking. The more throttle the more gray smoke. I limped it back to the docks at idle and the temps Bo stayed at exactly 160 degrees and very little smoke from port and none on starboard.

When I got back to the docks I pulled the port air filter and checked the turbo. I thought that it may have froze up. The turbo spun freely and just a little oil on the top of the turbo seal area. I fired it up again this morning hoping that Santas Elves showed up while I slept and made everything all better. Guess what....just another reason not to believe in Santa. I called the mechanic at went through it for me when I bought the boat a few months ago and he thinks it may be a cracked or stuck injector. Says that it is not a big deal at all, he also said not to worry about running it, however, we never left the dock today, I am of the belief that if something isn´t right, no matter how minor...don´t push your bad luck.

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated, if I was dealing with a gas engine, she would be apart and back together by now. I am new to the diesel world and just learning the differences between diesel and gas engines, ordered diesel for Dummy´s on Friday,

Thanks in Advance for any help with this,



Steve

markrinker
09-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Sorry to hear of your woes. Smoke from diesels, broadly stated:

Black - unburned fuel due to insufficient airflow (filter, turbo, etc.)
White - coolant finding its way into combustion chamber (head gaskets, aftercooler problems, etc.)

Since you are reporting gray smoke, and low coolant levels, my first thought is " ...where is all that coolant going? " Possibly this is a starting point for another area to investigate.

fwebster
09-03-2012, 11:31 AM
Add: blue smoke - unburned fuel or oil in the cylinders with unrestricted air flow.

Don't know about gray..........but if you suspect a cracked or bad injector, then don't run the engine if the smoke is noticeable. Excess fuel from a bad injector forms droplets due to the poorly atomized spray pattern. Droplets will "wash out" a cylinder which just means that the excess fuel washes the lube oil off the cylinder walls so the piston is going up and down with no lubricant and that will wear out a liner/piston quickly.

If you needed 1-2 gallons of coolant to top of the coolant tank then you really need to find out where the coolant is going.............the choices are in the oil, or in the cylinder. The oil is obvious is you pull out a dip stick, but there is usually white smoke if you are loing significant coolant into a cylinder....,also you can usually smell hot glycohol in the exhaust water if you are losing it into the combustion process.

Here is a Detroit dealer in your back yard if you are still on Priest:

Covington Power Services
115 Haywood Lane
Antioch, TN 37013
Mail:
PO Box 638


Telephone:
615-262-4141
Fax:
615-262-7413


Email:
bwhite@covingtonpower.com

Steve500dancer
09-03-2012, 12:01 PM
Thanks Guys, the coolant was lower in the starboard side then the port before I topped them up last Thursday. The coolant was a little low when the boat got to me. Both of the overflow tanks were completely empty. It hadn't changed before I added the coolant. No coolant in the oil at all. I checked both engine oils before I left and when I came back in and no difference at all in either engine.

The the smoke is a blackish gray. I thought I saw a blue hue to it when I was on the hook trying to figure it out. But, it was definitely gray with black when I was back at the docks and fired it up the next morning. No smell of coolant anywhere. No oil slick or fuel slick in the water. No sign of suit around the exhaust or in the water. This is going to be my first diesel lesson. I have ordered a trouble shooting book that I should have next week. I guess this diesel education might get a little pricey.

I appreciate the info on the mechanic Frank. I will call them first thing tomorrow morning. I will keep everyone posted. I guess the worst case scenario, I rebuild a motor for 18k


Steve

fwebster
09-03-2012, 12:36 PM
A bad injector is a common issue and is no cause for alarm. Most manufacturers recommend removing injectors and pop testing them every so often, so it might be a good idea to talk to whomever you choose to use about checking them all while you are at it.

I understand that rebuilding a Detroit is now a pricey process. 10 years ago it cost about $1500/cylinder to do an inframe rebuild; now, since the v-series 2 strokes are no longer produced, the rebuild kits are expensive....more like $6000 per cylinder, so your $18K estimate might be a tad low. Remember, this is a boat and they are a lot harder to work on than a bus.

OldSkool
09-03-2012, 01:30 PM
Hey Frank and Steve,

Just want to weigh in here to see what you think.These are '96' 6-92 Detroit's. Old school tech here for these engines. Since only one engine is smoking and the smoke is grayish blue it most likely is not a filter restriction unless each engine has it's own intake filter. Running the rack on these is pretty easy as I have done them on many Detroit powered shrimp boats. I good tech can pull all injectors and have them rebuilt fairly cheaply. I used a company called Test Masters in Savannah that a were top notch when I was in the business.

The gray/blue sounds more like a turbo seal going bad. There should be NO oil in the turbo seal area. If you have the least little bit then the seals are bad. Usually the oil is burnt off at low rpm as your engine oil pressure drops off while at low idle. Then when you come to high idle the oil pressure increases in the engine and pushes past the seal.

This is just speculation as we have no pictures or evidence of the problem to see. Not saying the problem isn't real, just saying we don't have much to go on.

Pyrojodge
09-03-2012, 01:48 PM
This has my vote for best thread title 2012! Lmfao!

Geese Steve, hope you catch a break soon buddy!

fwebster
09-03-2012, 01:55 PM
For injector testing and repair in this area go to Dixie Diesel in Columbia. 1-800-523-4621 or 931-381-1647.......ask for Jim Patterson. They are a certified rebuilder for Bosch, Stanadyle, Roosamaster, Denso, and are a Cummins dealer and are first class, and honest. Jim has taken care of all the fuel related needs on my junk for at least 20 years.

OldSkool
09-03-2012, 01:59 PM
Frank,
I have never dealt with these folks but have heard good reports about them. Us guys in the business keep loose track of such things.

fwebster
09-03-2012, 02:17 PM
Bill,


Dixie is one of those rare shops where you can just drive in, say "Fix it" and don't have to worry about the price. Whatever it is, it will be fair. They started out as an injector/pump reman center, but ,thanks to every guy past puberty "needing" to own a diesel pick up, they now have a 12 bay shop and do all kinds of engine related repairs to diesel equipment.

OldSkool
09-03-2012, 02:30 PM
Thanks Frank,
I always appreciate you're comments on marine application of components. Many dirt machine share systems but are completely different in their applications. Basic principle is good for an overview but you can't replace first hand experience like yours for marine application.
Bill

Steve500dancer
09-03-2012, 04:16 PM
Do these pictures of the turbo help? If you look at the top of the turbo you can see a little bit of oil. I took these Saturday when I got back to the docks? What does a turbo seal entail? Or if it is an injector, what am I looking at. Work and cost that is

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/04/4e4eryty.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/04/gy9amuge.jpg


Steve

OldSkool
09-03-2012, 05:52 PM
Looks like this is your starting point. The area should be dry. The seal must be replaced by a professional re-builder. Have a re-manufactured unit installed. Better to have a reputable shop do this and give you an estimate unless you have a good working knowledge of the components. I'm sure Frank or I could change this out in an afternoon but someone else not so much.

Whats your thoughts Frank?

Lucky's
09-03-2012, 06:24 PM
So I'm not gonna lie. I don't know sh!t about diesels. However, as a funeral director your title made me pee myself a little!!!! Hope you get it figured out and thanks for the laugh!!!!


Shaun
Sent from my iPhone

Steve500dancer
09-03-2012, 07:02 PM
Yep, sounds like a good starting point. I asked the other mechanic in Florida about the little oil on the seal and he says that it is normal to have some oil on the top like that. Do you think that leak could be the cause of the smoke? What would cause the seal to go out like that?

Where are you located Frank.
Thanks in advance
Steve

OldSkool
09-03-2012, 09:13 PM
Oil pushing through the turbo can only be burnt off in the exhaust. This produces smoke gray/blue exhaust smoke. How much depends on how bad the seal leaks.

You are doing the right thing by contacting a qualified technician for this issue. Our policy is if there is oil in the turbo it needs to be remaned. That being said I don't know the exact spec for turbo oil leak for Detroit turbo's so I'll defer to those who are Detroit certified.

Turbo seals can go bad for a number of reasons including hours on the unit, hot turbo shut down (not allowing the turbo to idle down before shutting the engine off), and over speeding to name a few.

fwebster
09-03-2012, 09:29 PM
In marine applications, where the engines run at constant speeds in high torque ranges, Detroit 2 strokes are known to be leaky. Based on the assumption, which you didn't say, I only assumed, that this smoke thing only just occurred and you have run the engine with no smoke, or normal smoke for a Detroit since you've owned the boat, I am leaning toward an injector issue causing the smoke. I don't have an answer as to why your coolant levels were so low.

I'm 60 miles SE of Nashville, on Highway 231 1/2 the time and in Panama City Beach the remainder.

OldSkool
09-04-2012, 07:30 AM
Frank,
I suggest he run the rack and injectors first as this would be the least expense. Then if it still huffs oil, look at the turbo.

BlewByYou88
09-04-2012, 01:50 PM
In marine applications, where the engines run at constant speeds in high torque ranges, Detroit 2 strokes are known to be leaky. Based on the assumption, which you didn't say, I only assumed, that this smoke thing only just occurred and you have run the engine with no smoke, or normal smoke for a Detroit since you've owned the boat, I am leaning toward an injector issue causing the smoke. I don't have an answer as to why your coolant levels were so low.

I'm 60 miles SE of Nashville, on Highway 231 1/2 the time and in Panama City Beach the remainder.

They don't call 'em "Drip-troits" for nothing...IF it ain't leaking, theres something wrong! :lol:

Steve500dancer
09-04-2012, 04:28 PM
Update....ok well after 20 telephone calls and several messages here is what I found out today.....




http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/05/vy2ezuhe.jpg



I hope that wasn't to hard to understand for you not so technical guys. I couldn't get anyone out to look at this motor if it held the answer to world peace. Hhhmm I may want to re think this darn diesel idea again. It's not to late is it?


Steve

tdschafer
09-04-2012, 06:28 PM
Update....ok well after 20 telephone calls and several messages here is what I found out today.....




http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/05/vy2ezuhe.jpg



I hope that wasn't to hard to understand for you not so technical guys. I couldn't get anyone out to look at this motor if it held the answer to world peace. Hhhmm I may want to re think this darn diesel idea again. It's not to late is it?


Steve

Nope, I got it!!:smt043:smt043

fwebster
09-04-2012, 06:58 PM
Don't be dissappointed...............there are 5+ possible causes for every problem, so most diesel service managers will not try to diagnose over the phone.

Steve500dancer
09-04-2012, 07:46 PM
Thanks Frank. I know all about Disappointment. This is my 4th boat and 3rd Marriage, I have also raised a teenage step daughter.

So I here that you are not to far from me Frank, what time would you like me to pick you up?


Steve

Steve500dancer
09-04-2012, 09:11 PM
Just got word from one of the Detroit mechanics. After explaining everything to him, he is pretty confident that we are dealing with a stuck or cracked Injector. Bad news is that he can't get to it until mid to late next week. Seems lie a great guy....I am hoping to find someone that can get to it this week, so we can be be out for the weekend. Not many weekends left till Thanksgiving.


Steve

OldSkool
09-05-2012, 08:32 PM
Steve, Take heart mate. There are techs out there you just need to be persistent. Frank and I are like the service manager you are calling. At least we have a photo to look at while we make suggestions at solving the problem. Keep us posted on the progress.

Hope it works out for you and diesels are the only way to go in a boat that big.

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 06:57 AM
Well bad news all the way around yesterday evening. Had a top notch Detroit guy out and ran several tests. First was a cylinder block off to check for a bad injector and no luck. Then he noticed water on the valve cover. Not a good sign. Then he Checked the coolant level and it was down. Next test was to pressurize the coolant system and check each cylinder. Sure enough the center cylinder o rings are loosing coolant into the cylinders.

He says that he wants to pull it and re build it. He doesn't want to to an in frame. He wants to dismantle everything and pull the motor out of the boat He thinks this should have been caught by the surveyor at Detroit diesel in Jacksonville. Not sure what re course I have with them. However, I am not real happy at all. We are looking at 3 weeks down time and 18-25k depending on how deep we ending getting into it.

I am not crazy about pulling the motor. I would really prefer an in frame re build. He says it says time and money to pull it.


Steve

tdschafer
09-06-2012, 07:02 AM
Holy crap Steve!!!! I am sorry to hear that man. That is a real ball kick. I hope there is some recourse with the Jacksonville guy but I believe they have some legalese disclaimer in the survey that is generally blanket protection. I am not a lawyer so I hope I am wrong for your sake.

copb8tx
09-06-2012, 08:10 AM
$18-25K?! Wow, that horrible! I know you must be sick about it. I'm sorry to hear it and good luck with the repair.

What a great job being a surveyor must be. You get paid for your years of experience to uncover issues the layman would miss but even if you fail to notice the really expensive stuff you have no liability. At minimum you should get your survey fee back sinse it added no value.

markrinker
09-06-2012, 08:26 AM
Well bad news all the way around yesterday evening. Had a top notch Detroit guy out and ran several tests. First was a cylinder block off to check for a bad injector and no luck. Then he noticed water on the valve cover. Not a good sign. Then he Checked the coolant level and it was down. Next test was to pressurize the coolant system and check each cylinder. Sure enough the center cylinder o rings are loosing coolant into the cylinders.

He says that he wants to pull it and re build it. He doesn't want to to an in frame. He wants to dismantle everything and pull the motor out of the boat He thinks this should have been caught by the surveyor at Detroit diesel in Jacksonville. Not sure what re course I have with them. However, I am not real happy at all. We are looking at 3 weeks down time and 18-25k depending on how deep we ending getting into it.

I am not crazy about pulling the motor. I would really prefer an in frame re build. He says it says time and money to pull it.


Steve


#1) Get a second (or third) opinion. Not to re-diagnose the coolant leakage problem (that was obvious from your first post) - but how to best approach the solution. Be upfront and tell everyone involved that money is a big factor as you've just purchased this boat. Get two or three capable Detroit diesel repair shops bidding against one another for your business.

#2) Find out who worked on this boat in the past for the previous owner, and find who has a previous repair invoice sitting on a computer that notes 'exhaust smoking, coolant loss, or leakage'. No need to confront the seller or the surveyor. If you find proof that they knew of problems, and unloaded the boat on you - thats fraud.

Otherwise, lick your wounds and move on.

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 10:26 AM
Here is what I have so far.
1-Detroit Diesel of Florida did the engine survey. And all was fine other then turbo leak and cooling system needed to be cleaned out.
2-Detroit Diesel of Florida had rebuilt both motors at 613 hours due in 2006 due to an injector issue that washed out the starboard motor cylinder. They can not find the receipt for the port motor. previous owner that had it done swears that both were done.
3-I had the entire cooling system cleaned and checked by a former Detroit diesel mechanic that did once work for Florida Detroit Diesel. He says he was also the one that rebuilt both port and starboard on the boat when he worked for Florida Detroit Diesel.
4-motor always ran at 165 for me since I bought it. Never noticed any kind of of heat issue or lack of water.
5-current Diesel mechanic says he pulled the air boxes and can see the coolant poring out of the liners from the o rings. He wants to pull the motor and rebuild it. Says it is about 20% less labor to remove and take it to his shop and rebuild it. Says that it will take 3 weeks to remove, rebuild and re install. 18-25k depending on how far we go with it.
6-spoke to original Mechanic from Florida and he says that he should not need to rebuild. He should be able to replace the o rings if that is what it is. He also strongly suggest a bore scope to find out where water is coming from. He thinks it is a good possibility it is from the after cooler seals. I have no coolant in the oil pan when I check the oil before I went out on saturday and when I came back in.
7-set up another mechanic from Detroit Diesel in Nashville to come and give me a second opinion on Saturday morning at 8 am. (Man this would sure make a good web cast if we had the capability to do it. I do have an I pad and Skype as well as Apple tv on the boat)

All opinions and condolences are welcome. Is there anything else that I should do? Check? Or pray for?





Steve

kkalsch
09-06-2012, 10:46 AM
Hi Steve
I would beg on my knees for Frank W to be there with you on Saturday and pay his way there and home. I am sorry to here about your problems and hopefully there's a happy ending
KK

mvoellinger
09-06-2012, 11:09 AM
Suddenly my $4k new engine saga doesnt seem so bad. Looking forward to the second opinion though. Fingers are crossed for you.

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 11:14 AM
I would not on my hands and knees, I would offer up my first born to see frank out there on Saturday morning.

It has been a rough couple of weeks. The boat is one huge ordeal. However, my 19 Year old dumb ass step daughter that just had the cutest 2 month old baby boy that you have ever seen, hooked up with an idiot druggy that know has her hooked on some real bad dope. We found the baby laying in an absolute mess last week and had to call the police and child protective services. We spent last week and this week in court trying to get custody. So I had to warn the boyfriend that if he came with in 1000' of my grandson I would kick the **** out of him. Saturday night he decided to make an appearance at the restaurant at our docks. Let's just say that he now understands what I mean when I said 1000' and kick the **** out of him. I thought I was all done raising babies. Here I go again....45 years old, working 12 hours a day and changing diapers. Not to mention this damn boat motor. It is my only refuge from the mental drain of this damn teenager. I sure hope God finds this amusing. Life sure seems to be kickin my ass lately.

Sorry guys I was just venting a little there. Not looking for sympathy either. My motto is that you can never go wrong doing the right thing. I think. Am changing that to "no good deed goes unpunished....


Steve

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 11:20 AM
Oops...I was trying to say that I oils get down on my hands and knees, pay frank, by frank breakfast and lunch and offer up my first born. (not my dumb ass teenage STEP daughter) I like frank to much to do that to him.

I also thought you guys might get a laugh out of this picture
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/07/uvaqynas.jpg


Steve

kkalsch
09-06-2012, 11:45 AM
Hey...you could ask Gary for help -but he would only bring brown duck/rescue tape ...but then again- you could use it on the boyfriend :lol:

rszarka
09-06-2012, 11:52 AM
I am so sorry to read of all of the problems you are having with your engine and otherwise! What a hard time for you i can only imagine i would be losing it right now in your shoes!! I really hope something positive happens for you soon! Life can and tends to change on a dime , hopefully something positive will happen for you very soon and turn it all around!!
Hang in there mate!

AMFM3
09-06-2012, 12:17 PM
Steve...hang in there. These things have a way of working themselves out. Use the Size Matters as the refuge. The engine issue will get fixed.

You have my vote for Best Thread Title so far this year!:smt038

Mark

LMBoat
09-06-2012, 12:22 PM
Hang in there Steve!!

CV-23
09-06-2012, 12:35 PM
Don't get charged with assult Steve! You can't help anyone sitting in jail......If there is no coolant in the oil pan, I'd have the O rings changed while the motor is in the boat, Mike.

fwebster
09-06-2012, 02:39 PM
I've already been in Nashville 3 days this week and will be there Saturday, but am committed all day. I'd just get in the way by asking silly questions anyway.........like Why?, How do you know it needs a new wassits?, How can I confirm what you are recommending?


Also, Steve, I don't know how the cockpit deck is set up on your year 500DA, but it is very easy to burn 3-4 man-days tearing a cockpit out of a 'Dancer to remove an engine (2 man job, requires a crane/big lift truck, requires somewhere to store seating and fiberglass where they stay clean and undamaged, requires careful sealing when reassembling, etc.).....Don't let a narrow minded mechanic lose sight of the goal line when he recommends a complete overhaul as opposed to an in-frame top end - look at the total cost vs benefit. Detroits were very popular in 45' & up boats a few years ago, we've got a ton of them running out of our marina in Florida every day and I have only seen one engine ever need a total overhaul. Every other rebuild has been in the boat.

Good luck with it..............

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 02:49 PM
Thank you Frank....I appreciate the help. I do have several questions. I would love to talk to you on the telephone if that is all possible. I certainly don't mind paying you for your time.

I have a guy down at the dock right now and I am having him take a piece of paper and wipe the dipstick o. It. The coolant is red. If I have any coolant in the oil it should show up on white paper I would think. I also think that if I don't have any coolant in the oil, and the oil pressure was good. I can't see the bottom end needing rebuilding. However, I am a gas jockey and not real sure about diesels.


Steve

douglee25
09-06-2012, 03:08 PM
To be sure you don't have water in the oil, it needs to be sent to a lab. Sometimes small traces aren't visible to the naked eye.

I hope all works out well.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Detroit-Diesel-6V92-REBUILD-INFRAME-KIT-/220423672040

http://dieselrebuildkits.com/k2/diesel-rebuild-store/detroit-diesel/detroit-diesel-series-92/detroit-diesel-6v92-rebuild-kit

Doug

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 03:45 PM
Here are pictures of the oil off the dip stick and a copy of the engine survey from may or June. No Water or coolant on the dipstick.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/07/hu6eryda.jpg

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/07/8uja9upe.jpg

Steve

fwebster
09-06-2012, 04:34 PM
The white paper test for coolant in the oil won't work. After a few minutes, the moisture cooks off and ends up as sludge. To know what is going in, you need a fluid analysis. Thompson Caterpillar in Lavergne does the Cat SOS test and the prepaid test kit with analysis is about $14.

Depending upon how old this problem really is, you may or may not have bottom end issues. These would not be the first Detroits sold to an unsuspecting buyer after the owner found a problem he didn't want to fix.

Do you still have my phone number?

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 04:54 PM
Thank you Frank. I lost my I pad in the lake last fall and your number didn't get transferred. Hhhmmm starting to appear to be a common denominator to all my troubles
ME + LAKE = $
ME + BOAT = $
ME + WOMEN = 2 X WIVES + CURRENT WIFE = STEP DAUGHTER + BABY = $

Y + ME + LAKE + BOAT + WOMEN = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Steve

douglee25
09-06-2012, 05:01 PM
At least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Doug

Pyrojodge
09-06-2012, 05:11 PM
At least you haven't lost your sense of humor!

Doug

+1 :thumbsup:

Keep us posted Steve, it can only get better from the bottom...

bahamabreisus
09-06-2012, 05:18 PM
A little late jumping in, but we had similar issue 4-5 yrs ago. Rebuilt the port engine inframe in about 3 days. Detroit had complete cylinder sleeves. Searay and Detriot did an awsome job designing this package, easy to rebuild in place, drop oil pan, pull heads and go. Our work was done by Covington Detroit. We had to buy a new head also. Total job was around 11k. One thing I learned clean fuel, clean fuel, clean fuel. Have injectors checked from time to time. These engines are basically bullit proof. It would probably run for years just like it is.

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 05:23 PM
Don't worry, I will keep you posted. I am also setting up a repair fund website. I will gladly take donations. Thinking about doing a Detroit Diesel telethon. I am going to talk to Frank about a guest appearance.


Steve

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 05:30 PM
Bahama, was it a 500 da that you had the inframe done on? was it doing the same thing as mine. This mechanic seems to think it will be so much easier to do it out of the boat. He says that it will only take him 1/2 a day to pull all the furniture and have the motor ready to pull.

He really doesn't want to do an inframe. Man I would be thrilled with 11k. This guy thinks that I need to do a complete rebuild including blower and turbo or he won't warranty the work. He also says says at if he pulls it next Wednesday, he will have it back in the water by the first week of October. Certainly not 3 days.


Steve

Rob1961
09-06-2012, 05:39 PM
Hi Steve, I've been fixing Detroits for years and they really aren't that difficult to diagnose. You've been getting alot of advise, some right on the money, others not so much. Put simply, white smoke coolant in exhaust and/or oil, grey smoke fuel in exhaust, blue and or black smoke oil in exhaust. Since I can't quite see the smoke from here it seems you should strt with the easy stuff. If there is coolant in the oil your oil will be a thick milky grey color after running the engine(deisel techs call it milkshake). After the engine is cool the oil and coolant separate with the oil floating to the top. If you have bad turbo seals the easiest way to check is to pull the outlet hose off of the turbo and the hose will be oily(a lot of oil, a slight residue is nothing to worry about). An overfueling injector is easily checked with with a computer(assuming this is a DDEC engine) but you can also put your hand in the smoke for a few moments and then smell it, if its coolant it will be sweet smelling, fuel will smell just like deisel and oil will smell putrid. Your best bet may be to pay a tech to tell you exactly what's wrong, this shouldn't cost you more than an hour's labor. Good luck! Break Out Another Thousand!!!!

Rob1961
09-06-2012, 06:12 PM
Oops, sorry Steve I missed a whole page of posts, GET ANOTHER OPINION!! Too much money involved. If you have coolant going into the cylinder isn't this head gasket issues and not overhaul issues? Overhaul issues would be cylinder liner o rings putting coolant into the oil pan(not the cylinder) causing the milkshake condition. Even then they could fix only that cylinder in the boat as long as they can get the oil pan off in the boat. Keep looking for a tech you trust and call a truck shop and ask what they get for the same repair. The price might be a little higher but certainly not 25k. Ouch!!! Find an old timer detroit diesel tech who owns a deisel boat, chances are he'll give you an honest diagnosis and tell you the best way to proceed with the repair.

bahamabreisus
09-06-2012, 06:16 PM
Yes it was 500da with 8/92s. I miss stated, our problem was on one side of the engine, so we really rebuilt half, But yes it was easy, of course I did not do the work myself, but I was there most of the time. The engines are mounted high of the stringers and floor, pleanty of room to drop the pan. With 2 cockpit hatches out there was also plenty of room to work the top end. Our problem seemed the same, faulty fuel injectors washed out 2 cyls. would not stop smoking, loosing some coolant. We opted to to the entire side head and all. Also recently we have a turbo housing wear thru. similar symptoms, loosing coolant and smoking. remove turbo had it welded, not problems since. Diesels are a blast, haha. Still wish we had our 420da. loved those 454s, poof 5 grand new engine. Good luck

Steve500dancer
09-06-2012, 07:28 PM
Thanks Bahama, where is the second hatch. I have only found one hatch in the middle where the ladder is.

Steve

mistercomputerman
09-06-2012, 07:47 PM
Yes it was 500da with 8/92s. I miss stated, our problem was on one side of the engine, so we really rebuilt half, But yes it was easy, of course I did not do the work myself, but I was there most of the time. The engines are mounted high of the stringers and floor, pleanty of room to drop the pan. With 2 cockpit hatches out there was also plenty of room to work the top end. Our problem seemed the same, faulty fuel injectors washed out 2 cyls. would not stop smoking, loosing some coolant. We opted to to the entire side head and all. Also recently we have a turbo housing wear thru. similar symptoms, loosing coolant and smoking. remove turbo had it welded, not problems since. Diesels are a blast, haha. Still wish we had our 420da. loved those 454s, poof 5 grand new engine. Good luck

I am gonna keep my mouth shut....

douglee25
09-06-2012, 07:56 PM
I am gonna keep my mouth shut....

lol

bahamabreisus
09-07-2012, 06:44 AM
Ours is a 1992, we have 3 floor panels that lift out. Each panel is approx 4'x6'. The entire cockpit floor is open. Cant believe they changed that.

Steve500dancer
09-07-2012, 06:58 AM
I have never noticed another hatch. It appears that the 96 opens up only from the center and that is a 2x3 opening where the ladder is. The rest appears to be one piece that goes from the transom to the back of the sofa. It sure makes more sense to have seperate hatches. Damn I might break out my chain saw and fix that little design flaw.

Steve

fwebster
09-07-2012, 07:34 AM
And, that one piece is bedded down in a drain and thru bolted around the edges. After the seating is removed, you have to sling the cockpit deck and lift it out from the rear very carefully with a crane or a big lift truck with a long reach. Your guy says 1/2 a day....? Remember, icemakers, lighting, etc that have wires and plumbing will need to be removed and reinstalled.

bahamabreisus
09-07-2012, 03:42 PM
Sorry, your is so different. We have 3 easily removable panels.

Steve500dancer
09-07-2012, 06:25 PM
Well after many many hours of thought. I think it is time to stop thinking. I had a great conversation with Frank today. He really is a great guy with lots of knowledge.

Tomorrow morning at 8:00 am, I am meeting the lead Marine Detroit Diesel Mechanic for Covington Detroit Diesel. I had a good conversation with him this morning. He understands my concerns with the total overhaul. He is going to Bore scope each cylinder. If we find that the liners are bad or the in bad shape. I will get a couple of bids on an in frame re build. I really have no interest in having the top cockpit deck removed, move the boat to the ramp on one engine, hire a 100' crane to lift the deck and the motor out and then do it all over again when the engine is built. I would rather pay a little more then have to worry about all the moving and damage possibility using cranes. I have access to a lift at my docks that all the guys use for pulling motors. It straddles the fingers on the dock and has a chain hoist. That should help with getting the heads off and anything heavy out of the engine room.

From the research I have done so far, I can figure on 125 hours of labor at about $110.00 per hour. About 8-10k in parts and machine work. Man that sounds bad. You might be seeing pictures of trolling motors hanging off the swim platform next season.

Steve

tdschafer
09-07-2012, 06:57 PM
Trolling motors could be a "Cool Mod"!

Turtlesboat
09-07-2012, 08:06 PM
Yeah but at the end of the day you'll still have a cool 500DA with rebuilt motors.

Steve500dancer
09-07-2012, 08:49 PM
All I can say is that I sure am glad that I got a great deal on the boat, even with a 20k bill on this engine I will still be into it right. I am a little worried about the Starboard side now. Guess I will have them check it tomorrow as well.

Steve

mistercomputerman
09-07-2012, 09:15 PM
Why do half a colonoscopy?

If he has the tools out and is in the bilge, scope the other one too.

fwebster
09-07-2012, 10:21 PM
If you decide to go that route, it is usually better on a boat like this to stop it from moving about when you pull an engine. That means haul her out, block her up and go to work. Please don't tell me you are on a lake with no haul out facilities..........

rcon
09-08-2012, 12:39 AM
Reading this thread is making me rethink my dream of a 44DB :wow:

Good luck!

fwebster
09-08-2012, 06:23 AM
Why would you say that? Unfortunate as they are, the problems the OP is dealing with are specific to 2 stroke Detroit Diesel engines and they were never installed in the 44DB.

Steve500dancer
09-08-2012, 06:27 AM
If you decide to go that route, it is usually better on a boat like this to stop it from moving about when you pull an engine. That means haul her out, block her up and go to work. Please don't tell me you are on a lake with no haul out facilities..........

Ok, I won't tell you that I am on a lake with no haul out facilities. But that it what it is. I just had a quote of 3k to pull the boat, block it and re launch. The good news is that I am in a covered slip and the water is pretty calm most of the time. I can secure my boat well enough with fenders that it won't move. I only have 3" between the dock and my boat.

Steve

rcon
09-08-2012, 06:43 AM
Why would you say that? Unfortunate as they are, the problems the OP is dealing with are specific to 2 stroke Detroit Diesel engines and they were never installed in the 44DB.

My apologies, it was a trite comment aimed only at the "wow" factor of how much maintenance a "big" boat can be. I have zero technical knowledge regarding these matters, but aspire to learn - and that is why I read. And now I'm googling what a 2 stroke diesel is! (I have a 3.0l TDI in my nissan so somewhat interested in diesels)

A 44DB is couple of pay grades away yet anyway ;)

fwebster
09-08-2012, 07:06 AM
Well, hang on, you'll get there soon.............

LMBoat
09-08-2012, 07:51 AM
Good luck today Steve! Let us know how things go

Steve500dancer
09-08-2012, 03:30 PM
Got the news today...definitely collant dripping out under the "o" ring on cylinder number 2. The cylinder looks to be scored and blemished. We also scoped the opposite cylinder and it has a little collant in it as well. That very well could be coming in from cylinder 2 as well. We drained the oil (now I know how the oil change system works) definitely milky at the bottom. We also ran a magnet in the bottom of the pan and the good news is that it came up clean. Hopefully the crank is ok and it won't need to be replaced. We also did the rag test in both exhaust ports and they were both clean as can be. No residue, no oil, no fuel. That is a good sign.

So now the question is how far do we go with this. Is appears that I shut her down in time to not destroy everything. We can pull the heads, liners, pistons and bearings and leave the blower and turbo and save some money. He says best case 100 hours labor and 5-6k in parts. No sense in pulling the heads and not doing all the liners, no sense in pulling the pan and not doing bearings.

What do you guys think about leaving the blower and turbo in place and working around it and saving that labor? Or should I just go for it and open up the check book and let the money fly and do it all? I did learn a lot today. Today's lesson was $712.00. Thank goodness I didn't have to by text books too.

Steve, beaten but not dead

CV-23
09-08-2012, 07:32 PM
Doing all the bearings in the boat would be a pain I think....one or two rod bearings not bad. I'd repair what needs repaired and enjoy, Mike.

OldSkool
09-08-2012, 09:07 PM
I'm surprised the smoke was gray yet there is a coolant problem which usually produces white smoke. Oh well stranger things have happened. I did a liner kit on one cylinder for a customer one time two weeks later the cylinder next to it went. He asked me about warranty and I told him the warranty was in place for the liner we replaced but that wasn't the one that was now bad. Point is if you’re that far into it then make sure you don't need to do it again next season and your warranty covers all the motor not just the hole they repair.

As for the new grandson, we are in the same boat. We have had ours since birth and the money I have spent on him would have financed a much bigger boat and an earlier retirement. But that's what we do. We rescue our baby's and put off our own wants for their good. I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Big Dave
09-08-2012, 10:00 PM
Can u explain what the rag test is.tkx Dave

Steve500dancer
09-08-2012, 10:20 PM
Take a rag and run it around the the inside of the exhaust port and see what you have on the rag.

Steve

douglee25
09-09-2012, 07:45 AM
Can you do any of the work yourself?

How about the tear down?

Doug

OldSkool
09-09-2012, 12:35 PM
Can you do any of the work yourself?

How about the tear down?

Doug

Most technicians don't want to come behind another tech and finish his work. Many times they will charge more for assembly then normal cause you "helped". This is a sign we had in our work shop.

Standard rate technician only
20% increase if you watch
50% increase if you help.
You do it all, no warranty.

If we order the wrong part we will replace it as quickly as possible, no charge.
If you order the wrong part then you now have a spare.

Both were useful and eliminated many question.

douglee25
09-09-2012, 12:38 PM
Yeah, I can understand where you're coming from.

Or if he has the ability to do it all, why not go that route and save yourself a $hit ton?

Doug

fwebster
09-09-2012, 12:56 PM
The OP admitted early-on that he had no experience with diesel equipment and needed help. The first mechanic he called was recommended as a good independent Detroit diesel mechanic, the guy he called in Saturday is the go-to marine Detroit Diesel mechanic in the area and works for one of Detroit's largest dealers. They both recommended an engine overhaul so the second confirmed the first and the only difference between the 2 was the method of the repair. A major overhaul isn't the place to learn "Diesel 101".


You do have one valid point, however. If the OP decides to pull the engine instead of an inframe overhaul, he can remove the seating, icemaker, plumbing and cockpit deck himself and save some money and the diesel mechanic will appreciate the help.

Steve500dancer
09-09-2012, 06:02 PM
I would typically do the tear down myself. However, I am so busy at work right now and on top of that I am raising a 2 month old baby. Time is a little hard to come by right now. I guess that I could let the boat sit until things settle down a little.

The next step for me is getting some firm prices on doing the in frame rebuild. I should have a parts list tomorrow. Everyone seems to be concerned about the time frame to get the parts once they are ordered. I have done a little checking on line and full in frame rebuild kits are available on line for around $1,700.00. I am not sure how the quality of after market parts stacks up to Detroit diesel parts.

Steve

fwebster
09-09-2012, 09:38 PM
You are spending far too much money here to trust "Wong Hung Lo Diesel and Lawnmower Parts" for your liners and pistons..................I'm just saying......

Steve500dancer
09-09-2012, 09:47 PM
Thanks Frank. Do you think i should make sure that everything is from Detroit diesel? I have also looked at Diesel Pro kits and heads. I have heard several guys on here talk about buying parts from them.

Thanks
Steve

fwebster
09-10-2012, 06:54 AM
There will be different views on this, but I prefer to let the guy doing the work source the parts.....for a several reasons: 1) He knows what works for him both from a delivery and a quality stand point. 2) Let him make a margin on the parts and he will be a lot more likely to cut you a break on the total job. 3)You should expect a warranty and performance on the warranty if there is a problem. If you buy the parts to cut the mechanic out of his margin then warranty repairs get to be a "who shot John" with the mechanic and the parts company pointing fingers at each other for responsibility for a problem. Boat repairs are difficult to get done right the first time and I have just found that one source responsibility for a big job works best, even it it may cost a little more.

mistercomputerman
09-10-2012, 07:13 AM
You are spending far too much money here to trust "Wong Hung Lo Diesel and Lawnmower Parts" for your liners and pistons..................I'm just saying......

Old Mister Wong is not going to be happy with the bad press you are giving him...

Steve500dancer
09-10-2012, 07:23 AM
Valid points Frank, looks like I will sit back and relax a little and see what shakes out price wise. At this point it really is what it is. I have both guys telling me that parts availability can be an issue on these Detroit 2 strokes. They must both be talking about genuine Detroit parts. The availability of aftermarket parts appears to be a non issue. I am not willing to take a chance on aftermarket parts if I can't be assured of the quality. I am not willing to go through this again on that engine for a a couple thousand more hours. Hopefully, that will take me I to my retirement days in South Florida where I can really enjoy this boat or a larger one.

Steve

fwebster
09-10-2012, 08:54 AM
Old Mister Wong is not going to be happy with the bad press you are giving him...

I'm not hard to find....he can come discuss with me it if he wants to.

OldSkool
09-10-2012, 08:12 PM
There are many after market parts out there that are stuffed into OEM bags and sold as OEM parts. They are parts that the manufacture does not make but needs to have to build their product. Dana or Spicer, Felpro or Mr Gasket, etc. The point I make is that even though these products are sold by non-OEM companies it's best to let the technician make the call. He has a good idea who is stuffing what into his OEM bags and can match them if need be by will fitters (non-OEM repair companies).

Frank makes 2 good point.

1. Along with an hourly rate the rebuilder makes modest profit on parts. Go with a total quote for the job and let it go at that.
2. You can do non related work to get down to the engine then let the technician go from there.

Just my opinion.

Steve500dancer
09-10-2012, 09:20 PM
Today was a bit better. I spoke with the first guy that wanted to pull the motor. We talked for about 45 minutes about in frame vs a pull. He understands my concern with the pull. He did a great job making me feel comfortable with his ability and knowledge of the 6v92. We agreed on a labor price for an I frame without having to pull the blower and turbo. He will do the labor for $8500.00 providing the air boxes are not dirty and the blower and turbo look ok. Parts will be all Detroit Diesel. Parts being $4300.00 including checking the heads and all the injectors. If the heads need to be done that will add about another $1000.00. If the blower and turbo need to be pulled we are looking at another $2500.00. His labor and parts price also include a double oil change and adding all new engine room gauges for both motors ceiling mounted (I provide gauges)

He will start tear down on Wednesday morning and have the heads in the shop that day so the turn around time will be between 7-10 days. If all goes well, heads, crank and everything else is ok. I should be 13k and sea trial by next Friday or Saturday. I also called two references and he was highly reccomended both for staying on budget and quality of work. I will also be meeting him at the boat on Wednesday afternoon to go through what he finds on the tear down. No parts leave until I inspect them. He will be providing a written one year parts and labor warranty. I searched the Internet and could not find anything negative about him or his company.

I feel as good as I can for a guy that has taken an ass kicken over the past couple of weeks.

I plan on posting several pictures of the tear down and re build. My missfortune may as well be educational for myself and others on this board.

Steve

douglee25
09-11-2012, 07:54 AM
The one thing I still do not understand are the high costs for marine labor rates or the overstated labor hour totals.

At $100/hour for a mechanic - that's 85 hours of labor. At 8 hour days, that's 10.6 days of work. At 10 hour days, that's 8.5 days of work. Even if you doubled the labor rate to $200/hour, that's still over 5 days of work at 8 hour days. I don't know how they charge that kind of money. It seems anything tagged with 'marine' or 'diesel' just gets charged at a premium rate. I'm curious what a large bus or tractor trailer repair outfit would charge for a similar rebuild?

Doug

rcon
09-11-2012, 08:03 AM
You're not paying for just labor tho.

Training
Tools
Vehicle (lease/rego/servicing etc)
Certification
Registration/licensing
Travel
Insurance
Warranty
And then you need to compensate them more than the next best use of their time.

They've just compressed that down into a nice easy number for you. Mighty good of them really ;)

fwebster
09-11-2012, 08:29 AM
There are a couple of factors you might not be considering........the components of a diesel engine are massive and heavy. The head on a diesel engine probably takes 2 men to lift. He is doing an inframe rebuild so the engine has to be jacked up to remove the oil pan......likely takes 2 men to jack/block/etc. An inframe rebuild in a boat means limited space and tight access, so having a helper there might save time in the long run. How much of this is a real 2 man job, I don't know, but more than likely, there will be 2 guys there most of the time.

The other factor is that diesel mechanics typically charge from portal to portal, so you are paying them from the time they leave their home/shop until they get to the boat where the real work begins, and then again, from the time the quit work until they get back to their shop/home. You pay not only travel time, but also travel expenses while they are on your job.

Any way you cut it, having a diesel specialist come out to repair something isn't cheap, whether it is a boat or a track hoe.

moparlvr4406
09-11-2012, 08:56 AM
You are spending far too much money here to trust "Wong Hung Lo Diesel and Lawnmower Parts" for your liners and pistons..................I'm just saying......
I agree totally with Frank from a mechanic's standpoint
our shop DOES allow carry in parts but there is ABSOLUTELY no warranty on the repair
except that the customer supplied parts were correctly installed.

Do you also take your bacon and eggs to Bob Evans and ask them to cook them up for ya ???
and what happens if they are too well done to suit your taste ??

a crude example of the same situation
Give the tech a little markup on the parts and then you know who to go after if something goes south :wink:

douglee25
09-11-2012, 09:06 AM
You're not paying for just labor tho.

Training
Tools
Vehicle (lease/rego/servicing etc)
Certification
Registration/licensing
Travel
Insurance
Warranty
And then you need to compensate them more than the next best use of their time.

They've just compressed that down into a nice easy number for you. Mighty good of them really ;)


Yes, I'm aware of what goes in to calculate a labor rate - just seems high that's all.



There are a couple of factors you might not be considering........the components of a diesel engine are massive and heavy. The head on a diesel engine probably takes 2 men to lift. He is doing an inframe rebuild so the engine has to be jacked up to remove the oil pan......likely takes 2 men to jack/block/etc. An inframe rebuild in a boat means limited space and tight access, so having a helper there might save time in the long run. How much of this is a real 2 man job, I don't know, but more than likely, there will be 2 guys there most of the time.

The other factor is that diesel mechanics typically charge from portal to portal, so you are paying them from the time they leave their home/shop until they get to the boat where the real work begins, and then again, from the time the quit work until they get back to their shop/home. You pay not only travel time, but also travel expenses while they are on your job.

Any way you cut it, having a diesel specialist come out to repair something isn't cheap, whether it is a boat or a track hoe.

Two guys on the job isn't something I considered, but that's a good point.

Doug

mistercomputerman
09-11-2012, 09:15 AM
Lucky it's not a computer network:

And if it is, you better have picked the Platinum Plan


No Plan...........$195/hr.
Basic..............$185/hr.
Gold...............$175/hr.
Platinum..........Service Calls Free/Consulting Free /Projects $125 hr.

Steve500dancer
09-11-2012, 11:22 PM
Covington Detroit was at $116.00 per hour plus $.57 per mile plus tax and bid the job at 125 hours.

I guess that tomorrow will tell the tale of what went wrong with the motor. They start tear down in the morning. It is going to be interesting to see what actually caused the failure. I just hope the crank and heads are ok or this could get bad again.

I have come to terms with this deal now and have just decided to take it in stride. No matter what it is....it can always be worst. So I will put my girl panties back on and put a smile in my face while I am passing out lots of hundred dollar bills. The bigger the toys...the bigger the price tag...such is life.

Steve

Pyrojodge
09-11-2012, 11:30 PM
Steve,
I'm pulling for a light hit in your wallet. Hope you're enjoying the water soon. Keep us posted buddy...

Steve500dancer
09-12-2012, 06:54 AM
Thanks guys, I could use a little good news today. I am prepared for the worst and hoping for the best. Sending the wife down there this morning with about 25' of solid 4" pipe so they can pull some A/C from the cabin and send it to the bilge, a couple of rolling carts for parts to be hauled to the truck, some fans to keep them cool and a couple of cases of water for them.

Stay tuned for the next episode of "As The Prop Turns"

Steve

kkalsch
09-12-2012, 07:16 AM
Stay tuned for the next episode of "As The Prop Turns"

Steve

I think a more appropriate title would be......"As The Diesel Burns"

Hope you catch a break today!!

KK

Steve500dancer
09-12-2012, 07:03 PM
Today's episode begins with a text saying that the mechanic has a service call and will be at the boat between 9:00 and 10:00 am. I load up the wife's car with a large fan and two pull carts. A couple of hours later she calls me and says the she called the guy and he will be another 30 minutes. So he got to the boat about 10:30 or 11:00am. At 2:00 pm I receive a text from a buddy in the docks to ask me what in the hell is going on. He proceeds to tell me that my boat has be totally dismantled and the rear deck was off the boat. So I guess this guy was right. He had the Furniture out and the deck off in less then 4 hours. I guess I better not say anything and just let him do his job. I have not heard anything since then. I have sent him a couple of text messages and no response. I was thinking about making the 45 minute drive to the dock and then I decided that some things are better left unseen. I certainly didn't want to see the video from my colonoscopy a couple of years ago and that doesn't seem to be any different then my motor problems. As long as I find out that everything ends up being ok in the End (punn)

Hopefully I will here something back from him soon. If I do I will post as soon as my tears dry up. This is like waiting for test results from the STD clinic. Dining to know the results. But, to scared to pick up the phone and call or you will jinx it. Would almost trade my motor issues for a good ole fashioned dose of the clap.

Steve

Steve500dancer
09-12-2012, 09:20 PM
I read the news today oh boy....got the call...here is what he found...
Engine definitely was rebuilt in 2003...dated cylinders and bearings.

Bad news is that 3 cylinders had been hot and melted the "o" rings. The blower has a leak and needs to be replaced. That is 16 hours to remove the blower and the heat exchanger. The blower is about $1100.00. The heat exchanger has to be pulled and boiled just to be sure that we don't have any leaks and it is thoroughly cleaned. We are also going to replace the fresh water pressure pump. Another $280 for the pump and a couple of hundred to get the heat exchanger cleaned. The heads are going to be sent off to be checked. They were replaced in 03 when the build was done. Hopefully they will be ok or that is another $1100.00 each. The injectors will be sent off and pressure tested. I also know they were new in 03. 150-170 hours ago.

Good news is that the main and rod bearings still looked great....almost no wear on them. Means that the crank is fine. Still going to replace all the rod and main bearings. Turbo looks good and all hoses, block and everything else still looks great.

So know we are at $16,500.00 and two weeks for all the parts. Hopefully the heads and injectors are all still good. H expects a good overhaul with no worries and full warranty. We are also going to do oil samples on the starboard engine. He also comes back at 40-50 hours and does oil samples to make sure break in is going well.

Steve

HUMPH
09-12-2012, 11:30 PM
Good news I guess? I hope that takes care of all of your issues but you may want to pull the heat exchanger and boil it out as well. What about the other engine? Is it worth the cost to you to pull the aftercooler and boil it as well for peace of mind?

Uplate
09-13-2012, 12:09 AM
Good news I guess? I hope that takes care of all of your issues but you may want to pull the heat exchanger and boil it out as well. What about the other engine? Is it worth the cost to you to pull the aftercooler and boil it as well for peace of mind?

Oh my, I saw your boat last weekend when I fueled up and thought of all the problems posted here. That's a tight slip! aNd your bow is sticking out for anything to come by and slam it. You need to tuck in Steve! Keep those house boaters unable to get you. Best of luck on your engine repairs.

douglee25
09-13-2012, 01:44 PM
Now you're up to the cost of 3 brand new 7.4's!

Doug

Steve500dancer
09-13-2012, 05:10 PM
Well this was definitely an issue that should have been caught on the engine survey that Florida Detroit Diesel did. They are claiming that my broker told them to just do a visual inspection and a sea trial. Even though they say that they did a pressure test, all gauge tests and the sea trial. My paper work shows a "engine survey". No where or at no time did anyone give me an option or let it be known that different depths of a survey were an opton. All I was told was that everything looked good and the engines were strong. They had a page of reccomendations with service cooling system, replace a hose or two,change oil and some little stuff like that. Everything on the page was done.

I would usually take this in stride and chaulk it up to a lesson. However, I was not dealing with backyard joe. I wanted a certified Detroit Diesel tech to survey and with that I should have received warning on the 6v92 issues and been given the opportunity to spend what ever they thought nessasary to do a extensive survey on the 6v92 motors. After all....they were hired to represent me as a buyers expert. I signed nothing that held the harmless or that stated this was not a full survey.

Not sure where I will go with this other then up the ladder at Detroit Diesel, if only to not let this happen to another buyer. Thankfully, I can afford to rebuild this engine and not have to sit around and wait for the money. Not that I want to spend $17-20k. I prefer to spend that on many other important things in my life. It just pisses me off.

Steve

tdschafer
09-13-2012, 08:38 PM
Well this was definitely an issue that should have been caught on the engine survey that Florida Detroit Diesel did. They are claiming that my broker told them to just do a visual inspection and a sea trial. Even though they say that they did a pressure test, all gauge tests and the sea trial. My paper work shows a "engine survey". No where or at no time did anyone give me an option or let it be known that different depths of a survey were an opton. All I was told was that everything looked good and the engines were strong. They had a page of reccomendations with service cooling system, replace a hose or two,change oil and some little stuff like that. Everything on the page was done.

I would usually take this in stride and chaulk it up to a lesson. However, I was not dealing with backyard joe. I wanted a certified Detroit Diesel tech to survey and with that I should have received warning on the 6v92 issues and been given the opportunity to spend what ever they thought nessasary to do a extensive survey on the 6v92 motors. After all....they were hired to represent me as a buyers expert. I signed nothing that held the harmless or that stated this was not a full survey.

Not sure where I will go with this other then up the ladder at Detroit Diesel, if only to not let this happen to another buyer. Thankfully, I can afford to rebuild this engine and not have to sit around and wait for the money. Not that I want to spend $17-20k. I prefer to spend that on many other important things in my life. It just pisses me off.

Steve

I hear you brother. It may pay to consult an attorney at this point.

Steve500dancer
09-13-2012, 10:21 PM
Oh my, I saw your boat last weekend when I fueled up and thought of all the problems posted here. That's a tight slip! aNd your bow is sticking out for anything to come by and slam it. You need to tuck in Steve! Keep those house boaters unable to get you. Best of luck on your engine repairs.

Hey Mike, hope your doing well...believe it or not my boat is tucked as far back as it will go. The 3" on either side of the boat when she is in the slip just makes me look good when I back her in. It also challenges me when we get a good wind blowing and 5-6 kids raising hell while I am parking. I have thought about moving to another dock that gives me more room. However, you were on "B" dock before....it would break my lake family's hearts if I moved. The kids have all grown up together on that dock and who else would fix everyone's stuff when it breaks. I have been gone for 2 weeks now and I allready miss everyone. Well almost everyone.

Steve

Steve500dancer
09-17-2012, 06:16 PM
What ended up in the back of the diesel mechanics truck.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/gu4una4y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/e2yvereh.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/7yha3yqa.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/y7yqy5us.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/tygasu3a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/vedy5uhe.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/7u4ese5y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/e2a5a5un.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/18/qyqype2y.jpg

Steve

CV-23
09-17-2012, 08:38 PM
YIKES!!!! That's a lot of parts. I recognize quite a few of them and that's scary, Mike.

Steve500dancer
09-17-2012, 10:26 PM
Yea, scary is one way to describe it. The first picture shows a stainless steel seal that apparently costs $480.00 because my boat has a "special" cooler that has double tubes coming in to it instead of the much cheaper single tube. How can I be so lucky to have the double tube,,,,


Steve

Steve500dancer
09-18-2012, 12:31 PM
Just got the word the the injectors all test well. However, mechanic tells me that he would replace them with the HP injectors for $174.00 each (x 6) and reminded me that if the engine fails due to a bad injector, it is not covered under warranty.

I do know that the injectors were all replaced in 2003 when Detroit re built the engine. We have approximately 150 hours on them since the build

Any thoughts here

Steve

fwebster
09-18-2012, 12:44 PM
Not replacing the injectors means you go bareback without warranty for one of the leading causes of Detroit Diesel failure......you got the other one.........Is there really a decision here?

douglee25
09-18-2012, 01:57 PM
Not to mention why bother testing them if he wouldn't warranty the engine anyway?

Doug

fwebster
09-18-2012, 02:25 PM
He will warranty his work, but is excluding a failure caused by an injector. Cylinder washout is the usual result of a failed Detroit injector. Care to guess how long a washed out cylinder will run when the lube oil has been washed off by a faulty injector? Right...not long.

mistercomputerman
09-18-2012, 02:25 PM
B=Break
O=Out
A=Another
T=Thousand

Steve500dancer
09-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Good point Frank, what should a good injector cost? He wants to use premium injectors that are about $184.00 each.

I am seriously contemplating letting him go ahead a build the starboard engine while he has everything on the port ripped apart and the back off the boat. What's another 20k among boaters and their mechanics.

I also don't spell boat the same way most do. I spell boat BOATT

B-BREAK
O-OUT
A-ANOTHER
T-TEN
T-THOUSAND


Steve

moparlvr4406
09-18-2012, 02:56 PM
Good point Frank, what should a good injector cost? He wants to use premium injectors that are about $184.00 each.

I am seriously contemplating letting him go ahead a build the starboard engine while he has everything on the port ripped apart and the back off the boat. What's another 20k among boaters and their mechanics.

I also don't spell boat the same way most do. I spell boat BOATT

B-BREAK
O-OUT
A-ANOTHER
T-TEN
T-THOUSAND


Steve
don't forget to tip :wink:

tdschafer
09-18-2012, 05:09 PM
Good point Frank, what should a good injector cost? He wants to use premium injectors that are about $184.00 each.

I am seriously contemplating letting him go ahead a build the starboard engine while he has everything on the port ripped apart and the back off the boat. What's another 20k among boaters and their mechanics.

I also don't spell boat the same way most do. I spell boat BOATT

B-BREAK
O-OUT
A-ANOTHER
T-TEN
T-THOUSAND

Steve

Don't you mean:
B=BREAK
O=OUT
A=ANOTHER
T=TWENTY
T=THOUSAND


Ouch!!! Thank god I only have to deal with gassers for now!! Good Luck bro!

Steve500dancer
09-19-2012, 06:14 PM
Welcome to the Survey was Wrong...joining us again today is none other then our raining champion loser Steve500dancer...

Question - who should survey your detroit diesel engines?

Steve's answer - Florida Detroit Diesel!

Right or wrong - wrong!

Correct answer - anyone else

Next question - what can they miss on an engine survey?

Steve's Answer - nothing they are a Detroit specialists

Right or wrong - Wrong again

Correct answer - any head shop will tell you that the tubes are leaking, the valves have excessive carbon build up on seat area and the guides are worn...

Today's loser will receive a bill from the head shop for $1,500. And let's make that the daily double and multiply his loss by 2 for today's total loss of $3,000.00. This puts our losers grand total for the port side motor at just over $20,000... But he will be back tomorrow for more.

Tomorrow Steve's question will be.

- what does the radiator shop say about the heat exchanger?

Steve

douglee25
09-19-2012, 07:30 PM
Steve!!!! I feel bad buddy! It has to get better soon!

Keep your head up. Maybe you can pass another plate around at church for some donations??

Doug

Steve500dancer
09-19-2012, 07:36 PM
Thanks Doug,...I have a call into Obama.....surely they have some type of stimulus program for old Sea Rays. Funny thing is that I know refer to my diesel mechanic as "The Grim Reaper" every time I hear from the guy I loose a little more life.


Steve

tdschafer
09-19-2012, 08:16 PM
Thanks Doug,...I have a call into Obama.....surely they have some type of stimulus program for old Sea Rays. Funny thing is that I know refer to my diesel mechanic as "The Grim Reaper" every time I hear from the guy I loose a little more life.


Steve

Forget about Obama. You're part of that one percent they always refer to. He wants you to give more than you already do! :grin:

Steve500dancer
09-19-2012, 10:17 PM
Well between taxes and this boat it won't be long before I am on the opposite side of the spectrum


Steve

gerryb
09-19-2012, 10:31 PM
Steve, as a new diesel owner I'm trying to AVOID reading this thread. :smt101

I do wish you luck - maybe a winning lottery ticket is in your future to offset this current losing streak.

Not sure what you do for a living, but have you thought about stand-up comedy? You've got some good material here...:grin:

WarrenG
09-20-2012, 12:54 AM
Steve, as a new diesel owner I'm trying to AVOID reading this thread. :smt101

I do wish you luck - maybe a winning lottery ticket is in your future to offset this current losing streak.

Not sure what you do for a living, but have you thought about stand-up comedy? You've got some good material here...:grin:


Steve, I have been reading along since spider man and duckbills and thinking what to say and gerryb's quote was fitting. That being said, I wish you were not going though this!!
I also am apersheative of you having the guts to go public for the good of the SeaRay comunity!

To the big block gas guys:
Upone lunching my boat by crane it weighted in at 41,000 pounds wet and before we moved our stuff into our secound home. Try pushing that around at 35 MPH with a pair of big blocks even 500 EFI's! Sometimes a man has to go big or go home. I do however relate to lack of cost or the cost of having to do it right.

WarrenG

searay40dad
09-20-2012, 08:00 AM
Same here Steve, very appreciative of you sharing your trials and tribulations and truly sorry to hear about all your pain and suffering. I hate to learn at someone elses expense but this has made it clear to me to not stop at the general advice often given of "have a qualified diesel tech work up your engines as part of the survey process". i, too, have had a recent diesel experience that although was not costly (only because I wasn't charged after I loudly complained), happened because the guy didn't know his a-- from a hole in the ground. I know I'll be asking more questions before, during and after and doing more ref checks on mechanics in the future. When I had my motors worked up by CAT I had my surveyor present as another set of eyes but I now realize I wasn't nearly as involved in the process as I should have been in terms of expectations and follow-up. Trust but verify comes to mind I guess.

Just curious, and maybe I missed this somewhere along the thread, but during your due diligence what did the service records or investigation into the service history turn up? were the rebuild and/or suspect maintenance issues discovered and/or disclosed?

Anyway, good luck with her. She'll be good as new shortly so you'll just then have to go have $20k's-worth of good fun! btw, I still think you need to move that big girl off that lake and to some bigger water where she can open up and breathe a little bit. We've got a covered '60 open on our pier...

Bucit
09-20-2012, 01:26 PM
Steve, I don't know you personally but I really feel for your misfortunes. Someday I would love to have a diesel boat but after reading through your heartaches it may be a while. Hang in there, it has to get better!

rszarka
09-20-2012, 01:59 PM
Steve: You are sure going through one hell of a life experience! Your story is giving me nightmares and probably everyone else that reads it! I honestly have to talk myself into reading this thread each day as I hate seeing you taking yet another hit from the grim reaper! I am sure everyone here really feels for you and what you are going through! From the bits you have written about your life here you are obviously a great guy and don't deserve to be beaten into the ground like this, every tough thing we go through makes us stronger and a better person in some way i believe anyways, im sure somehow in some way you will end up better off after all of this in the end ...maybe something like your boat engines will be in such great shape afterwards you will never have to worry again and face major repairs in the future and have a trouble free many many years on the water! So sorry this is all happening to you and really hope it abates soon and all changes for the better! Your story sure makes people realise how trivial the things they face are! Hang in there Steve like all things this too shall end! You have a whole community behind you here gunning for you to tear through this thing!

Steve500dancer
09-20-2012, 04:14 PM
Thank you Searaydad and the rest of the well wishers. I really thought that I had done everything possible to ensure a quality survey. I new going in that the service had not been done on the boat in a couple of years. They said one year, so I doubled that. I was also told that the boat was sold in 05 to a guy that never ran the boat because he was a drunk and could not find his way to the captains seat. The previous owner to the rich drunk guy (now flat broke and deported) was meticulous in his service and had owned the boat since 1997. The motors were both rebuilt in 2003 at 613 hours (750 hours when I was surveying the boat) to an injector issue on the starboard engine that washed out two cylinders. The owner at the time had decided to overhaul both engines to ensure this would not happen again. When I sowed up to the boat I noticed that the boat was filthy and not what they had said it was. Mostly cosmetic stuff from sitting around. However, I was immediately told by my surveyor to try and look past the dirt to see what potential the boat had for the right price. My engine surveyor was on board and quick to tell me he was happy with what he had seen so far with the exception of the oil filters being dated June of 2007. After an hour or so the oat was sea trialled and all went well. We made it to the haul out site and the next thing I new the engine surveyor was packing up. He told me a couple of things such as the cooling system should be completely flushed and I had a leak at the starboard side blower that appeared to just be a seal. He also told me that our top RPM was 2000 and that was due to the dirty fuel in the system and that it will need filter changes. However, he was very comfortable with the way the ran and considering they had been rebuilt by Detroit Diesel I was in good shape with the exception of the fuel, oil leak and gauges not working accurately compared to his gauges. He apparently had a flight to catch and had to get to the airport and would have me my survey docs that night or in the morning. It took me several days of calling an begging for the paper work before I finally received it.

The survey consisted of two pages. The first page was numbers filled in with the gauge readings and the second page was a hand written recommendations page that listed the items from above with the exception of replacing hoses that were original. I asked this guy several times if we needed to do anything else. He was very confident in both motors and told me it was probably going to be about 7k in service and repair work.

The reason a person hires an engine surveyor is to make sure that you are not buying a boat with troubled engines with out knowing upfront to be able to negotiate the repairs into the deal. Or in most cases just walking away.

My broker hired both the boat surveyor and the engine surveyor. He said that he had used the haul surveyor before and he was great and that Florida Detroit Diesel is who we should use because they know the engines and have serviced this boat. The oil samples were done by the haul surveyor because the engine surveyor was going to be out of town. Those results were sent to the engine serveyor when they were finished as well as the haul surveyor and myself. Yes they did not cme back good. I was assured by the engine surveyor and another mechanic that I sent them to that the levels were elevated in due to the oil sitting and not being changed for 4 years. However, they were both happy that the oil samples did to show any water or antifreeze in either motor. They reccomended changing oil and filters and retesting in 50 hours to get a good base line.

We went back to the negotiating table and based on the engine and boat survey reccomendations renegotiated the price and put the deal together. Granted the deal was great on the boat and it was a big factor in my decision and we love the boat. However, I am sure I would have done more negotiating or walked away from it knowing one or both engines would possibly be in need of an overhaul.

It is what it is and now I have to decide on my course of action. I have spoken with my broker, Florida Detroit Diesel and the boat Surveyor (the guy that surveyed the motors will not return my call) my broker and the surveyor are behind me 100% and both kept telling me how much of a hurry the engine surveyor was in to get n a plane by 1:00pm. Next I will speak with Florida Detroit Diesel and see what they have to say again now that I have all the information. Then I will have to find an attorney in Jacksonville and get him rolling on this. Or I just pay up and chalk it up to good ole fashioned education.

Steve

searay40dad
09-20-2012, 08:29 PM
So the oil sample didn't show high levels of iron or any coolant traces? the blow-by test was in spec as well?

I think I'd give some serious thought to having an attorney send them a formal letter. May be a long shot but You don't have anything to lose at this point.

Steve500dancer
09-20-2012, 08:50 PM
Yes definitely high Iron levels, it was passed off as a lack of oil change in several years


Steve

WarrenG
09-20-2012, 09:13 PM
Steve,
What does high iron usually indicate? If it points to your problum, hopefully you might have a strong case.

WarrenG

Steve500dancer
09-20-2012, 10:20 PM
It was explained to me as a light coat of surface rust inside the motor from a lack of oil on the cylinder walls and other steel parts that loose the oil coating. When the engine was run after the boat sat for some time it would cause the rust to get into the oil as it is worn off the cylinder walls as the rings run up and down the cylinder walls. That made perfect sense to me when it was explained to me by the surveyor.


Steve

fwebster
09-20-2012, 10:29 PM
High iron indicates block/liner wear................but normal engine operation sloughs off some iron so there is going to be iron in any the oil sample. Since the oil in this case was very old, you would expect there to be high iron in the sample. That is why establishing a base line and doing regular fluid sampling is important. It allows you to look for and to monitor wear trends by watching the levels of key contaminants.

The normal course of action with engines known to have old oil in them is to recommend changing the oil and filters then putting them under normal operating conditions for 25-50 hours then re-sampling the lube oil. The concern with making any claim against your surveyor is that there was no water or glycohol in the oil sample. Also, you will also find that any service order you signed contained wording to the effect that the surveyor is limited to his best efforts, and who commissioned and paid for the survey might also put a claim in question.....if the surveyor hired the surveyor and paid him, then you settled up at closing, I'm not sure you have any standing to make a claim. I'm not a lawyer and make no claim to be. I've just never seen a surveyor held liable than any more than the amount of the survey, but I wish you luck in pursuing a claim.

searay40dad
09-21-2012, 07:00 AM
I can understand high iron in his sample because of the old oil, but due to the shape the cylinders were obviously in wouldn't it have been unusually high in this case? I mean, atleast higher than the starboard sample? I also don't quite understand why the sample would not have shown high readings of sodium or potassium since he had a coolant leak.

Since Steve probably hasn't put that many hours on his boat since taking the sample, is this type of breakdown indicative of an immediate failure (not detectable) vs. one that gradually occurs (and would be detected by trend analysis)?

I agree his chances are slim but, at this point, probably worth a shot. I've seen well worded letters from attorneys do wonders. who knows, maybe they'd agree to give him parts at their cost as some form of consideration.

fwebster
09-21-2012, 07:44 AM
Tim,

You hit on the crux of the ability to go back on anyone here.........even with the old oil in the engine, at the survey fluid analysis, there was no water or glycohol in the sample. That can only mean that whatever happened to the engine, happened after the oil sample was taken.

Sea Ray Mark
09-21-2012, 09:13 AM
Steve, you mentioned something a few posts back that jumped out at me when you said "my broker hired the boat surveyor and the engine surveyor". I've always felt that you have to be careful when the broker recommends his buddy for the survey. You can end up in a situation where the people that are supposed to be looking out for you are only looking to make sure the deal goes through so they get paid. Not saying that's what happened or that they weren't honest but you may have been the only person really looking out for your best interest. I hope it all turns out well for you in the end. The 500DA has always been one of my favorites! Mark

Steve500dancer
09-24-2012, 11:12 PM
Hey Mark, sorry it took so long for me to respond. Got to spend the weekend with my stupid 19 year old step daughter at her rehab program and getting pissed off at myself for not killing her when I had the chance, however, I did get a chuckle or two when I sold her 2000 BMW 328 I for $4500.00. Not sure what it was about that...that made me laugh. Oh yea now I remember, she is an idiot and should be driving a PT cruiser with 4 million miles on it.

Anyway, my broker didn't know the engine surveyor, I wanted a Detroit diesel specialist and that is what he got me.


Steve

Bucit
09-25-2012, 09:43 AM
Steve, can you tell us how you really feel about your step daughter? :grin:

CV-23
09-25-2012, 11:45 AM
"When I had the Chance"....oh my. Hope it was not going to be boating related! 19 you say....Do not pass GO or collect $200. That would be a reality check, Mike.

Molson
09-25-2012, 11:47 AM
Damn, I would have bought that BMW for 4500

Steve500dancer
09-25-2012, 05:20 PM
Then you might be interested in my 1970 mustang fastback for 18k for a quick sale
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/26/apatu7uv.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/26/5e2uja4a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/26/meje8ena.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/26/8ahadejy.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/09/26/u7aqa2yd.jpg

Steve

Woody
09-26-2012, 03:52 AM
Steve, your car brings back some memories. They still are a great looking car. I had a '70 Mach I. Unfortunately it left the highway while the needle was pegged, a casualty of a long day of drinking at a local strip joint. I survived, my marriage survived, the car did not.

Steve500dancer
09-26-2012, 05:50 PM
Sounds like a good time was had by all...except the car


Steve

tdschafer
09-26-2012, 09:21 PM
Steve,
That car is hot!!

Steve500dancer
09-26-2012, 09:29 PM
Steve,
That car is hot!!

Thanks, I use to be a car guy and had a pretty good collection going. Now I am an idiot boat guy, funny thing is that my wife use to complain about all the money I spent on buying and building cars. She wanted me to find another hobby since she couldn't park in the garage and I had to add three lifts in the garage just to park them. Just goes to show that you better be careful what you wish for. Now I am dropping money in the boat like it grows on trees.

Now I am getting ready to sell a couple of cars off and sink it into my money pit boat.


Steve

searay40dad
09-27-2012, 07:45 AM
It's a sickness Steve and it only gets worse. We're pulling out for Panama City in a couple weeks and that has meant 7-8k just in new electronics, addl spares and getting things ready. Then we'll need 1,200 gallons of diesel to get to our destination, $700/mo for the next 6 months for slips, plane tickets, running around fuel, extra insurance, etc then fuel to get back in April. I've quit adding it up. All just to squeeze in a few boating weekends over the winter.

Finding a new hobby has been suggested to me several times and with increasing frequency over the past few weeks. In fact, my wife (who has long opposed me getting a Harley) recently even suggested she was both ok with me getting a Harley AND joining the Sons of Anarchy MC if it meant stopping the hemorrhaging. I think she might even be serious.

DaFish
09-27-2012, 08:27 AM
Steve - I have been following your trials and tribulations - both family and boat. On the family side, having a daughter and granddaughter (and fortunate to not have the challenges you are facing), you have our thoughts and prayers that all turns out good - not what you had planned, but good none the less. On the boat side, we were just looking at a 1989 420 with Detroit Diesels - and I think we are going to pass - I dont think I have what it takes to take on the challenges that you have. In the end, it sounds like you will have a solid boat with good power, but what you are going through to get there - God Bless You.

Steve500dancer
09-30-2012, 08:21 PM
Thanks again fellas I appreciate the sympathy and support.

Today was the first time I have been back to the boat since the infamous day I was given the final word on the port side engine. I also had the privilege of cutting a check today for the parts for the engine. The mechanic won't start assembly until I cut him a check for the parts.

So tomorrow after my nephew drops off the check at his shop in KY, he will start assembling the liners and prepping parts. Tuesday, he is supposed to start the rebuild at the boat. The mechanic and his helper are going to stay on the boat until they are done. He says he hopes to be doing the sea trial on Saturday morning. Keep your fingers crossed that all goes ok.

It was good for me to go to the boat and start getting it ready for the guys to stay on it. I have been so focused on this stupid little engine problem that I have forgotten what a great boat it is. My wife did point out to me how much we love the boat and all of our dock family and how lucky we are to be able to afford such a boat along with the repairs that go along with it. While I am worried about rebuilding a engine, people are out there trying to find the money for a child's operation that will maybe prolong their life. Really puts things in perspective when you stop and think for a minute. Why is it so much easier to feel sorry for yourself then be greatful for what you do have?

below are a few pictures of the cockpit of the boat tore apart.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/01/ube5yjan.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/01/sabetuna.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/01/ry5u8aty.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/01/4a8avevu.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/01/vyzavybu.jpg


Steve

WarrenG
09-30-2012, 10:47 PM
Steve, you do have a great way of putting things in prospective. I am going to try to do more of that myself. Boating is a privilege!

WarrenG

Steve500dancer
10-01-2012, 03:58 PM
Thanks Warren. I certainly have to work on it too


Steve

Steve500dancer
10-03-2012, 11:03 PM
Update on the rebuild with pictures.. Today the got all rod and main bearing in, cylinders and pistons. The oil pan was on by 9:30 and they we wrapping it up and headed to sleep on the boat. Heads and blower are on for tomorrow. They think we will be doing a sea trial by Saturday morning.

Spent a couple of hours talking to him tonight and picked them up dinner. Really a good guy with tons of experience and knowledge. Spent several year in the military as a diesel Mechanic, then went to Covington diesel in Nashville for several more years. On his own now and working hard to keep a great reputation.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/yhy9eduj.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/apamuha9.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/ra3yme7a.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/a5y8a3eg.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/u6y6u7y2.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/gatyjada.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/sude6y9y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/sabuja9u.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/6e3uqe9y.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/dazebeha.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/ybuhyzut.jpg
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/04/yhe7unav.jpg

Steve

searay40dad
10-04-2012, 06:19 AM
Glad to hear it's all coming together Steve. Sounds like you're comfortable with the mechanic which is a good thing. Thanks for keeping us Posted as this has been a very informative post. Good luck down the final stretch.
Tim

tdschafer
10-04-2012, 08:24 AM
Steve,

Glad to see it in the reassembly phase!! As stated above, it sounds like you may have done well with your choice of mechanics. I will keep my fingers crossed that all goes well buddy!!

Bucit
10-04-2012, 10:26 AM
It looks like he's earning every penny of the rebuild. Nice to see him working past 4:30 to get things done and you back to boating.

Steve500dancer
10-06-2012, 07:36 AM
Thanks guys, we are sea trailing this morning. Decided to replace the fresh water intake hoses and had to run out and pick hose up at 11:00 last night. No it is 7:20 am and I am headed to the boat. After the sea trial I am headed to the hospital. I am pretty sure I broke my foot the other day. It is swollen up to the point I can barely get my shoe on. Kept me up again all last night


Steve

Prosideus
10-06-2012, 07:49 AM
Good news on sea trial. Bad news on foot. I would say jeez can't you get a break, but you did so that doesn't seem appropriate. Where here in Nashville can you get intake hoses at 11:00 PM?

Hope all goes well today Steve...boat and foot.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Pyrojodge
10-06-2012, 09:42 AM
Jesus Steve, fingers crossed buddy!

AMFM3
10-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Jesus Steve, fingers crossed buddy!

+1. Man, take care of yourself Steve

Carpedmman
10-06-2012, 11:24 AM
I think Steve is going to need a big WHOOP, WHOOP from all his Sea Ray buddies at CSR after this tribulation! Hope the Sea Trial goes smoothly Steve!

Steve500dancer
10-06-2012, 05:29 PM
See trial (lake trial) went fantastic. The weather wasn't great....windy and 58 degrees. Ran her for 10 minutes at 1400 RPM then 1800 for about 10 minutes then wide open for 30 or 40 minutes. Both engines ran great. Temp on he starboard was about 8 degrees hotter then the fresh built port. Everything else was balls on. Both engines hit 2150 RPM at WOT under load as well as 2450 with no load. GPS showed 28.7 mph and that was in pretty choppy waters with a good wind against us, 3/4 full on fuel, 3/4 full on water and half full of waste. I am pretty happy with those numbers or a 50' boat.

I spent about 3 or 4 hours cleaning the outside of the boat in 40 degree weather while the mechanic finished up changing out hoses and engine room gauges, Surprisingly the mechanic completely cleaned and pressure washed both engines and the entire bilge before and after the sea trial. They also washed the entire cockpit area and furniture when they were putting it back on the boat.

We took another oil sample on the starboard motor after the sea trial.and I will drop it off Monday and have results by Wednesday. We decided not to bolt down the furniture until we get the starboard samples back. Just in case we see real high levels of something and I decided to overhaul it as well. In other words...if I loose my freakin mind.

So now I am sitting at the walk in clinic trying to figure out what the hell I have done to my foot.

Below is a link to you tube of the engines running

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=IeLRuVgLBzk&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DIeLRuVgLBzk%26feature%3 Dyoutube_gdata_player


Steve

rcon
10-06-2012, 05:34 PM
I've been a very interested observer of this thread and its great to hear its all back and running.

Also good to hear your mechanic has done the little things that seem to communicate/demonstrate attention to detail.

Good boating!

AMFM3
10-06-2012, 06:45 PM
Hey Steve...congrats on the sea trial. Engines sound nice in the video as well.

Good luck with the foot.

Mark

mistercomputerman
10-06-2012, 07:00 PM
Good job, Cap'n.

You should be able to drive a boat with a cast on your foot.

Steve500dancer
10-06-2012, 07:30 PM
Thanks fellas, well it turns out that my foot is not broken. Just a very serious infection. Sure as heck feels like it is broken. never had this much pain in one foot in my life. I am not sure what happened. It appears to be yet another spider or insect bite. I swear that nature is screwing with me right now. About a month ago I was bit in the face by a brown recluse that ended up being a serious staff infection, then i got stung in the big toe by a yellow jacket. Now my foot looks like I dropped a Anvil on it that I got from Acme Rockets while trying to catch that crazy Road Runner.


Steve

Big Island Lifer
10-06-2012, 09:49 PM
Congrats on getting the boat fixed up. I'm sure your foot will feel much better once you can relax on your newly fixed up boat.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quint4
10-07-2012, 08:05 AM
I have also been following this. Congrats on the sea trial and good luck with the foot!

OldSkool
10-07-2012, 03:08 PM
Great to hear the engines are back on line. Lots of great info in this thread. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Pyrojodge
10-07-2012, 04:15 PM
All Right, Count one for the Good guys, Finally... Congrats Steve, I know it's been a long haul but you've reached the finish!


I hope!http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q305/Katharine4444/thfingerscrossed.gif

Steve500dancer
10-07-2012, 08:59 PM
Well it's not over yet. We will see how the sample turn out on Wednesday on the starboard engine. The port was the one that was just finished with the overhaul on Saturday. I would hate to bolt all the furniture back in, only to have to pull it out again in 3-6 months and start this entire ordeal all over.

HUMPH
10-07-2012, 10:03 PM
Well it's not over yet. We will see how the sample turn out on Wednesday on the starboard engine. The port was the one that was just finished with the overhaul on Saturday. I would hate to bolt all the furniture back in, only to have to pull it out again in 3-6 months and start this entire ordeal all over.


Good luck Steve! I hope the other side doesn't need it but if you do rebuild, at least you have 2 workhorses that you can rely on.

WarrenG
10-07-2012, 10:18 PM
Steve, I am happy for your boat! Please don't forget to take good care of your foot.
I saw your name on the video clip( sounds good )......do you have a Viper?
WarrenG

Steve500dancer
10-08-2012, 08:09 AM
Thank guys, I can't tell you how much I appreciate all the well wishes and support. I get by with a little help from my friends, I am planning on posting all the pictures of the parts that came out of the port engine. I am waiting for the mechanic to send me all that.

Foot update....turns out I got another bite that has become terribly infected. I hate to say it but this is the most pain I have ever felt in my life. this is even worst the the Brown Recluse bite in my face about a month ago. My foot is throbbing like
hell and the swelling will not go down. The doctors filled me with antibiotics and morphine most of yesterday. This will be my first sick day in years. I can't walk even wi the crutches.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/08/nuzaty3e.jpg


Steve

Steve500dancer
10-08-2012, 08:13 AM
Steve, I am happy for your boat! Please don't forget to take good care of your foot.
I saw your name on the video clip( sounds good )......do you have a Viper?
WarrenG

Yes warren I have a 05 Commemorative edition number 84 of 100.

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Steve

WarrenG
10-08-2012, 09:29 AM
Steve, I have a 06 Slate Gray w Silver Stripe vert, 69 mustang and a 500DA .......... Small world!
We have been VCA members for over 6 yrs 2nd Viper. Unfortunately I do not know how to post pictures.

We have always loved boats and I have found it is truly my passion! I like cars, however found boats are we're it is for me.
Again good luck with all!

WarrenG

Steve500dancer
10-08-2012, 11:50 AM
That's great Warren, I have had two Vipers. The first was a 2001 SRT10. Great car except for the A/C could just never keep inside cool enough and it was a pain in the butt to remove the top and put it back on. Love my 05...she hit e DYNO at 556 HP to the rear wheels after a little playing with the chip and Ractive exhaust. I bought that car with 3k miles on it and now it has 9500 miles.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/09/e9ehagyt.jpg

Steve

Steve500dancer
10-08-2012, 11:35 PM
Oh I forgot to give you guys the final talley on the port side motor, after everything including new fresh water hoses on both engines and all new engine mounted gauges the final total was $24,241.17. That is about three gas engines,


Steve

Russ Calasant
10-09-2012, 08:42 AM
Nope, don't feel bad, I just bought a 7.4 for my last boat it was just shy of $14k - so almost two!

CV-23
10-09-2012, 09:49 AM
Oh I forgot to give you guys the final talley on the port side motor, after everything including new fresh water hoses on both engines and all new engine mounted gauges the final total was $24,241.17. That is about three gas engines,


Steve

Wow....what Medical School did the Diesel Tech go to?.....Sounds like a Hospital Bill for a minor procedure. Maybe 3 well built marine big blocks.....not merCruiser, Mike.

WarrenG
10-09-2012, 12:09 PM
Oh I forgot to give you guys the final talley on the port side motor, after everything including new fresh water hoses on both engines and all new engine mounted gauges the final total was $24,241.17. That is about three gas engines,


Steve

1/2 a used Viper! Hope you get feeling better all way round!!

WarrenG

Steve500dancer
10-09-2012, 01:21 PM
Yea thanks warren. I have done the math too. Mine was a little different....nueteak for the entire cockpit, surround sound for the master state room, 4 more cockpit speakers with separate 500 watt amp, and the list goes on and on.


Steve

douglee25
10-11-2012, 05:28 PM
Well it seems I missed the final closing here. My forum notices stopped and I didn't even realize it!

Glad to hear everything is back up and running. I still can't believe the cost though. Amazing how quickly it adds up.

Good luck with the foot too.

Doug

Steve500dancer
10-13-2012, 07:14 PM
Back from e hospital today and all doped up when the report comes in on the starboard motor oil analysis. It came back with a high iron count of 208 parts per million. All other reading were well with-in normal range. The oil has about 25 hours since the last oil change. The mechanic recommends an overhaul.

I am going to have to get feeling a little better before I can start doing some research on what the iron content should be. The reading during the initial oil samples was north of 350 parts per million if I remember correctly. That is a pretty significant drop after 25 hours if you were to ask me. I wonder if there is a detergent available to clean the iron out of the motor on a motor that has been sitting for a few years.

If anyone has any information or research that they would like to share, it would be greatly appreciated. I am not real found of the idea of dropping another 20k on another overhaul.


Steve

AMFM3
10-13-2012, 07:16 PM
I think this is one for Frank to weigh in on Steve. Good luck...

Mark

douglee25
10-13-2012, 07:58 PM
There are several things that could cause high iron content readings on that motor.

From crank/rods, to the cylinder/rings wearing in, etc.

How did the cylinders look on the other engine? How about the bearings on the crank and rods?

As mentioned before, since the engines sat for a while, the iron levels may be high as the rust starts to wear off from running them more often.

Doug

Steve500dancer
10-13-2012, 08:41 PM
The cylinders on the port engine were gaulded and the main and rod bearings were in exceptional condition. Almost no wear. I did have the mechanic do a bore scope on the starboard engine and he did 4 cylinders. 1 of the 4 showed some gaulding the others looked very good from what he could see.

My hope is that a couple more oil changes at 10 or 20 hour intervals would clear oil a any more rust still in the liners from sitting. I wish a detergent was available to clean this iron deposit out and then see what she reads after another 20 hours.


Steve

douglee25
10-13-2012, 09:30 PM
I don't know if this would be an accepted practice or not, maybe boatdiesel would be able to advise one way or another, but a quart or two of ATF in your oil may help clean up things internally. ATF has detergent properties and is sometimes used as an engine flush/cleaner.

Doug

fwebster
10-14-2012, 08:43 AM
High iron typically indicates excessive wear in an engine from ferrous metal components like liners, rings, crank or cam shafts, etc. You can't normally "clean it out". You indicated you thought you had surface rust inside the engines, but unless you saw evidence of on the internal engine parts in the first engine tear down, I think that is pretty unlikely. Until you know the cause for sure, I think it would be a mistake to dilute your oil with ATF, since, if the cause is wear related, diluted oil only accelerates the wear.

The normal standard for iron on 2 stroke 6v92 Detroits is less than 120 ppm; 120-150 ppm is abnormal and above 150 ppm is critical, so you are 2X the usual for a healthy engine. But you have no history on your engines so you can't see any trending, which is the true value of oil sampling. If this were me, and since this engine appears to run fine, run at normal temps, has no weird stuff happening in the exhaust like white, blue or gray smoke and no coolant droplets, I would change the oil whenever the break in oil is changed on the rebuilt engine, then run this engine until its next regular oil change and then re-sample. A few months from now, you will be in a better position to make a $25K decision (another Detroit rebuild) because you will have a better and more complete picture of the facts.

Follow the mechanics recommendation and spend $25K?...... or wait and resample and hope that under normal use and good maintenance practices the iron level drops? The worst that can happen is that the iron levels go up and you do have liner and ring wear and you spend another $25K on a rebuild. I can't see any harm in slowing this money train down...................

Steve500dancer
10-14-2012, 02:11 PM
Thank you Frank. We ran that motor hard on the sea trial last weekend. It wasn't smoking any color smoke nor did the temp get over 175 at wide open throttle. I also have all the rebuild receipts on that motor and everything was done including the heads being replaced. I had quit a bit of my cost in the port rebuild with 3k in head rebuilding, 1k in replacing the blower and stuff like that. I wonder if just doing new liners, pistons and bearings at this point would be the answer. I would think that would cut cost down around 14-16k

This mechanic has me pretty nervous about not doing an overhaul and have a catastrophic failure throwing a rod or dropping a valve and being in the 40-to 60k price range. I really do prefer to leave everything as is and continue to test and get a good base line.


Steve

skylark
10-14-2012, 05:27 PM
Steve glad to hear your back on the water, you have a tough decision on your starboard engine, no weird noises, smoke or oil consumption? how's the compression?

you have had some nice cars...

CV-23
10-14-2012, 06:12 PM
I would think.....if the bearings looked great in the rebuild motor, they should be fine in the other motor. You're not going to throw a rod just because a liner may be rough....leaking coolant into a cylinder or oil would be an issue but you're not seeing that, Mike.

OldSkool
10-14-2012, 08:26 PM
Got to go with Frank on this one. You have no sign of any failure or performance with the engine. Gaulding usually happens when an engine over heats and the piston skirt rubs the cylinder wall yet you state that you are running 175 degrees temp. Were you seeing gaulding in the cylinders? AKA piston skirt rubbing the cylinder wall or wear marks from the rings removing a slight rust glaze on the cylinder. If just rust then run the engine and retest as per Franks advise. If it is truly gaulded, it will not get better and the new sample should show high iron again.

Steve500dancer
10-15-2012, 03:51 PM
The bearings on the port motor were like new according to the mechanic and they were also the original bearings in the engine from day one. They were date stamped 1995. According to the overhaul invoice from Florida Detroit Diesel the Starboard bearing were replaced at 613 hours. The mechanic also said that when he did the bore scope he could see gaulding on of the four cylinders that he scoped. The gaulding on the port engine cylinders was pretty bad. I should be getting all the tear out parts and pictures this week from the Mechanic. I am also supposed to receive the oil sample read out today. When I get all that I will be sure to post it.

Below are the invoices from Florida Detroit diesel overhaul in 2003
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Steve

Steve500dancer
10-16-2012, 03:04 PM
I received the sample readings today. I am going to post them below. Any information from anybody would be greatly appreciated any opinions also would be greatly appreciated

I did talk to a guy hat has tons of heavy equipment today. He swears by Lucas oil. He says adding a gallon of Lucas would do a world of good to that engines. Any thoughts on that?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/10/17/7a4e7yda.jpg


Steve

OldSkool
10-16-2012, 09:28 PM
I see nothing that warrants a rebuild at this time. You have no blue smoke or fuel in the engine oil that prove ring failure. Did you do a compression test? All the elements for bearing material are within normal range so the lower end should be fairly strong.

What say you Frank?

fwebster
10-16-2012, 10:02 PM
What do I say? Seems like I already said it in post #189:

"I would change the oil whenever the break in oil is changed on the rebuilt engine, then run this engine until its next regular oil change and then re-sample. A few months from now, you will be in a better position to make a $25K decision (another Detroit rebuild) because you will have a better and more complete picture of the facts".


And now Thompson Cat confirmed it: "Change oil and resample to establish trends".

Steve500dancer
10-16-2012, 10:06 PM
No compression test. I had the mechanic price another full oil change with a high quality oil. Same oil as he used on the port that he highly recommended. he also stressed not to mix the additional oil I had left over from the last oil change with what he used in the port. I think doing another oil change on the starboard motor will give me a good base line if I have oil samples from the fresh port overhaul with 50 hours and 50 hours with the same oil on the starboard motor. That should help me compare reading to reading.

I also spoke to my mechanic about the Lucas oil and he strongly suggested avoiding it. Says that he has seen more damage to engines with Lucas and has no other products that he recommends.

He did give me a price for doing the liners, pistons, rings and bearings of 13k


Steve

CV-23
10-17-2012, 07:41 AM
I'm not a big fan of additves either! If regular oil does not work, the engine is bad and going to go south no matter what you use. If a motor has tons of wear but still runs good, additives can build some oil pressure and prolong some life, Mike.

fwebster
10-17-2012, 08:06 AM
What is the oil you used in the first oil change?.........and was the oil used after the rebuild Chevron Delo 400? What viscosity?

Steve500dancer
10-17-2012, 08:21 PM
The oil prior to the rebuild on the port engine was Delo Sae 40. After the rebuild the mechanic insisted on Delvac Sae 40. The starboard engine still has the Delo Sae 40 until Friday when he is going to drain it and replace it with the Delvac Sae 40.


Steve

Steve500dancer
10-22-2012, 07:59 PM
I spent part of Saturday at the boat putting the cockpit carpet back in and checking everything that the mechanic had to hook back up. Seeing less and less people at the docks. The restaurant is still open but they have gone to fall hours. Hard to see the summer turn to fall and the fall to winter. Thankfully, I don't have to deal with the winter weather of the " Old Country" (Canada). Here in middle TN we are still seeing mid to high 70s this week and a drop to 60 and rain for this coming weekend. We typically boat off and on till Thanksgiving and then we are out till mid March.

Now the decisions are whether or not to winterize or use the engine room heaters and heat lamps that are everywhere on the boat from the previous owner and what repairs, maintenance and upgrades are in store for next season. Oh crap...I forgot I have to pull the boat at some point to get the repairs done from the accident where the house boat hit my boat three dang times. (Not going to think about the disasters that are in store for me)

This past season was a little tough to say the least.with trying to find a boat, selling the 340, getting hit by a house boat, blowing up a motor, having to take a baby in and last but not least getting bit in the face and foot by spiders and almost loosing a foot.I have a feeling that next year is going to be a much better year for me. I am glad I got all of the crap out of the way this year.


Steve

Pyrojodge
10-22-2012, 08:54 PM
Great attitude Steve,

Best wishes for the rest of this year and the next!

endless seas
10-22-2012, 09:06 PM
Don't forget to spray for those darn spiders. I do my lines,pileings,and boat several times a year.

Steve500dancer
10-22-2012, 10:07 PM
We have a huge spider issue on our docks. We have talked for a few years now about having all the boats pulled out for one day while the marina cleans the ceilings and all the supports, the problem is that we do have several boats on our docks that haven't run in years and will have to be pushed out and pulled back in. Personally I don't give a spiders ass about the people that don't or can't move their boats. I say let the marine clean the ceilings and let the spider **** fall where it may (on the boats that can't move) then we can bomb the entire dock.


Steve

AMFM3
10-22-2012, 11:48 PM
Steve,

good to see you're up and around and back on the boat. I have to say, we have quite the issue with spiders in our marina...I'll be spraying everything a lot next season!

stay well...

mark

Steve500dancer
10-24-2012, 11:47 AM
Thanks AM/FM. Hopefully the weather will cooperate for a few more weeks or a month. It has been 80 here all week and now they are calling for 50's for the weekend and warming up again next week.


Steve

Steve500dancer
11-12-2012, 08:40 PM
Ok so I finally got some pictures back from the diesel mechanic that overhauled my port motor. I need the pictures to document the failure after the "Engine Survey" that Jacksonville Florida Detroit Diesel did for me as they "Represented" me during the purchase of my 500.

I am posting these pictures for you guys that are considering a Diesel engine boat and can't understand why spending big money on a top notch diesel surveyor is so damn important. It is up to you to do the research on the surveyor and to make sure you get the best guy in the area and if there isn't one there... then fly one in.

I just thought that by calling Detroit Diesel for my Survey...I couldn't go wrong. Well I sure went wrong....to the tune of $25,000.00.

I know that education is expensive. So take my advice and learn from my mistake. I can only hope that my experience and my post can save someone the grief and expense that I have had to endure.

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Steve

IanBat
11-12-2012, 08:58 PM
Gee those photos bring back some memories!
I did my apprenticeship as a mechanic and served 5 years as a tradesman, in the Army. Same motor as what was fitted to the Armoured Personnel Carriers, and looks like about the same amount of room to service them !