240 DA Air Conditioning retrofit

[Arizona240DA]

Gentlemen, have any you heard of Mermaid Marine air conditioning units, and/or do you have any experience with them. Unfortunately our 2001 does not have A/C, nor was it an option. We live in Phoenix, and needless to say it is quite warm and we would like to install a more substantial system, vs. a portable unit, Cruise Air, etc. I’d sure appreciate any advice and or wisdom…..unless of course it is something to the effect of move up 4 feet to a 280 with a generator :wink:!!! My apologies if this subject has been brought up before.

Here are a couple of links to their website:

http://www.mermademarineair.com/default.asp?grp=13&cnl=206&itm=248

www.mermademarineair.com

Regards,
Chris

[JAndrewG]

Chris,

Yes, I've heard of them, but I don't know anyone who has one of their systems. I think Boaters World and West Marine have them in their catalogue.

You might try giving these people a call-

http://oceanbreezeac.com/

I did quite a bit of homework before picking them to build a custom system for me. What I really like about theirs is that they don't reverse cycle to get heat.

Up here in the Seattle area, the people who use reverse cycle to get heat complain in the winter that they don't get much. When the surface temp of the water goes below 50 degrees, the BTU output drops drastically.

Instead, Ocean Breeze uses a heat coil in the throat of the fan. This means that when you've switched to the heat side, the only moving part is the fan. The compressor and raw water pump don't run.

I had them put two coils in my system; the second one I can switch on separately if I feel I need it. On the rare week up here when it's below freezing for highs, it keeps the boat at 72 degrees no problem.

A custom built system sounds expensive, but this was the really neat part; in the end it was a few hundred dollars cheaper than a Marine Air or Cruise Air system. And they supplied me with aircraft rated flame resistant duct work as part of the package. I'm tickled with the whole deal.

If nothing else it'll give you another option to look at.

John

[Arizona240DA]

Great, thank you for the tip, I’ll definitely check it out. Out of curiosity, what was/is the ballpark price range and what size of cruiser?

[chazaroo]

Not sure if this helps but we just had an Ocean Breeze 9000 btu ac/heat unit installed on our 1996 250 SunDancer. You can see the install at the following link:
http://s199.photobucket.com/albums/aa152/Chazaroo_album/

The total bill was about $2350 parts and labor.
The only thing not in the pictures is the sump we had put in to take the condensation line to a through hull.

Chazaroo

PS: Ocean Breeze is great as far as we're concerned. When it's 93 outside, it's 77 in the cabin.

-Chazaroo

[Arizona240DA]

The pics are great, thank you for sharing. Was this a DIY project or did you farm it out?

[chazaroo]

Farmed it out to a local marina. It seemed kind of complex and I figured better let a pro do it. As you can see, I lost some storage space but it was a good trade off. The only problem we encountered was a mistake by the original installer (an independent contractor hired by the marina). He ran the condensation drain line straight down into the forward bilge. Unfortunately there was no bilge pump there. The marina then installed a small sump under the V-Berth next to the AC pump. They then installed a through hull for the sump to pump out condensation. This they did at their expense.

-Chazaroo

PS: Other good thing about Ocean Breeze (other than the fact that they are about 20 minutes from our house) is that if you have questions or run into a problem, you can call and talk to their head engineer who really knows marine AC

[JAndrewG]

Chris,

I just found that Chazaroo had replied to your thread, and has an Ocean Breeze unit as well. Neat, it sounds like he's as happy with it as I am.

As for cost, I think my system was something just under $1600. My system was more expensive than yours would be for several reasons.

Our boat had an old CruiseAir split system in it originally. This is where the compressor is in the engine room, and the evaporator and blower is on a separate skid in the cabin. It went DNF after we shipped the boat home. Ocean Breeze built a replacement split system for us, and I did the installation and had a local A/C person come in after to charge it with freon.

Adding the second heat coil to the system was also an extra expense, of course.

What I have then, is 16,000 btu's on the air conditioning side, and 18,500 btu's on the heat (each coil is 9250, I think). On both sides, this is overkill, but I like to open the cabin door and cool or heat the cockpit as well.

For your 240, I would think a 9,000 btu system would be more than adequate. This, and the fact that your system would be simpler as it would be on the same skid, would make it less expensive. How much, I'm not sure, but certainly less than an equivalent CruiseAir or MarineAir.

Another neat thing about the Ocean Breeze unit is that there are no proprietary components in it, except for the digital control. This means that you can buy a new compressor or fan or anything from anyone when the time comes. I sort of liked that, and you know it would have to save you money later.

The digital control does not have a remote like the two big brands, but it is fully programable, and compatable with a home style thermostat if you wanted to go that way. Also, it is powered by two AA batteries, so it is not subject to power spikes, or effected by having the boat connected to shore power in any way. The clock stays on regardless. Mine's been up and running about two years now, and I haven't yet had to change the batteries.

Oh, and on my earlier post, I realized that I went on and on about the heat on our system, but being from Phoenix you really don't have to worry about that, maybe not even in the winter. If not, they can make you an A/C only system, which would save even more.

Man, I talk alot...:)

Hope that might help,

John

[JAndrewG]

All that and I forgot to tell you what size out boat is. It's a 340EC.

John

[JAndrewG]

Oh and Chazaroo- nice photos of your installation. Thank you for taking the time to share them. Do you need heat at all in Stuart? Maybe a little in the middle of Winter?

John

[chazaroo]

John,
Yeah, given the weather here, the heat may have been overkill.

Chris,
Regarding Ocean Breeze, you can see the units for sale on ebay and also:
http://www.oceanbreezeac.com/

-Chazaroo

[Arizona240DA]

Farmed it out to a local marina. It seemed kind of complex and I figured better let a pro do it. As you can see, I lost some storage space but it was a good trade off. The only problem we encountered was a mistake by the original installer (an independent contractor hired by the marina). He ran the condensation drain line straight down into the forward bilge. Unfortunately there was no bilge pump there. The marina then installed a small sump under the V-Berth next to the AC pump. They then installed a through hull for the sump to pump out condensation. This they did at their expense.

-Chazaroo

PS: Other good thing about Ocean Breeze (other than the fact that they are about 20 minutes from our house) is that if you have questions or run into a problem, you can call and talk to their head engineer who really knows marine AC

I just got done taking look at a similar system that was installed on a used 240 at Marine Max. It is currently 113 degrees and needless to say we would like to have a cooler cabin!

[Arizona240DA]

Chris,

I just found that Chazaroo had replied to your thread, and has an Ocean Breeze unit as well. Neat, it sounds like he's as happy with it as I am.

As for cost, I think my system was something just under $1600. My system was more expensive than yours would be for several reasons.

Our boat had an old CruiseAir split system in it originally. This is where the compressor is in the engine room, and the evaporator and blower is on a separate skid in the cabin. It went DNF after we shipped the boat home. Ocean Breeze built a replacement split system for us, and I did the installation and had a local A/C person come in after to charge it with freon.

Adding the second heat coil to the system was also an extra expense, of course.

What I have then, is 16,000 btu's on the air conditioning side, and 18,500 btu's on the heat (each coil is 9250, I think). On both sides, this is overkill, but I like to open the cabin door and cool or heat the cockpit as well.

For your 240, I would think a 9,000 btu system would be more than adequate. This, and the fact that your system would be simpler as it would be on the same skid, would make it less expensive. How much, I'm not sure, but certainly less than an equivalent CruiseAir or MarineAir.

Another neat thing about the Ocean Breeze unit is that there are no proprietary components in it, except for the digital control. This means that you can buy a new compressor or fan or anything from anyone when the time comes. I sort of liked that, and you know it would have to save you money later.

The digital control does not have a remote like the two big brands, but it is fully programable, and compatable with a home style thermostat if you wanted to go that way. Also, it is powered by two AA batteries, so it is not subject to power spikes, or effected by having the boat connected to shore power in any way. The clock stays on regardless. Mine's been up and running about two years now, and I haven't yet had to change the batteries.

Oh, and on my earlier post, I realized that I went on and on about the heat on our system, but being from Phoenix you really don't have to worry about that, maybe not even in the winter. If not, they can make you an A/C only system, which would save even more.

Man, I talk alot...:)

Hope that might help,

John

A lot of good information, thank you! Yeah, I'm not sure if we would ever need heat out here, but for a little more money, it may be a good idea to purchase the dual function system in the spirit of versatility. I just looked at an aftermarket system this morning, very similar to that of yours and Chazaroo's. It doesn't look too complex and I feel confident in it as a project. The only apsect of doing it in-house would be drilling through the hull, especially the intake in the bottom of the bilge. Did you have to do this, or since you already had an existing system and retro-fitted, were you able to avoid cutting below the waterline? Everything else seems to be a slam dunk, but I'm just not feeling too sassy about drilling holes in the bottom of our boat :smt017.

[estebanj]

Usually the only problem with drilling the holes is the blockage that your mind puts into your hands to start the drill and do it. :smt017

Adding a thru-hull and seacock in the bottom is easy, as is adding the thru-hull on the side. The thing to pay the most attention to is a good beading of sealant to make sure no water gets through. I once read as well, to put a thin layer of epoxy in the bare f/glass after drilling for extra protection if water does get through.

Esteban

[Arizona240DA]

It is a scary thought, for a second anyway.....mind over matter, mind over matter! I think epoxy on the rough edges is a great idea, thanks for the tip.

[keokie]

You might talk to Phil, or Craig at Bergeron Engineering. they have installed countless AC's. Very, very reputable organization (I have no affiliation, but have worked with them for at least a decade).

Go 9000 BTU's minimum. My 310 has 12,000 BTU's, and on these days of 110+ degrees, it struggles to get the cabin below 80-84. I will eventually go to 16,000 BTU's.... The current unit will freeze you out at night, though if it is set low.

[NoWakey]

Chris,

A few things that haven't been touched on here that might be noteworthy for you to know:
There is only one place on a 240 that the A/C can be installed and that is behind the starboard cosmetic wall in your aft berth. In your vintage 240 there is no provision built into the boat to isolate the A/C unit from the hull liner. For a proper installation an isolation divider needs to be constructed and installed to prevent air from the hull liner from being pulled into the return air for the A/C unit. If this is not done you will have a very stinky cabin on your hands. Frankly it's a real pain in the butt to put this in and many dealers don't include it in their installation quote unless specified.
There are a lot of cables and wires that have to pass through this area and the isolation divider. Make sure the pass through notch-out/s on the divider are sealed with something like latex expanding foam or you will be right back in the same situation with a vapors being pulled into your return air.
Also be very careful what you do with your condensation drain or you will end up with a wet aft berth. In a factory installation the condensate runs to the shower sump under the steps in cabin. As many will attest this does not work well because the 240 sits quite stern low in the water and you know the #1 plumbers rule, "It Don't Run Uphill". It is much safer to take the condensate drainage back to the engine compartment and install another sump box to collect the condensation and pump it overboard.
One last bit. There is only one place that your seawater thu-hull can be installed and that is between the crankshaft pulley on the engine, and your fuel tank. Make sure the thru-hull plumbng is located far enough forward that it will not restrict the pulling of the engine should it be required in the future.
A good A/C install is a tricky affair in a 240. Make sure that all aspects of the install are well thought out before anyone starts bolting things in place and punching holes.
Good luck on your project, you won't believe how nice it will be to have the A/C when you are done.

Cheers,

Jim

[Arizona240DA]

Thanks for the feedback. Check this little guy out, it is a 5200 BTU unit. There is an option for reverse cycle heating. This one in particular has been installed in a 2000 240 DA. There are two discharge vents, 1 directing into the V-berth and one directing into the mid-cabin. The V-berth storage compartment acts as a return chamber, which I assume avoids some of the issues that you have discussed. As for the condensate line, it drains onto the floor of the head, which isn’t ideal (wet floor), but my assumption is that it works. The thru-hull location that you speak of is exactly where they placed it in the 2000, it seems to be a pretty slick setup altogether. I don't think that we will be hanging beef in the cabin with a 5200 BTU system, but I feel strongly that it will take the edge off for us at night. I’m getting ready to place my order, but am not anticipating starting the project until November.

Regards,
Chris

For anyone that is interested, I have 30 or so pictures detailing each and every aspect of this system installation. I’m not a big fan of reinventing the wheel!

[Cocktail Time]

Hey guys, I have installed a Mermaid 12.5k btu unit myself in a 1991 270 DA and was very happy with the results and the price. (I had to have a cocktail before I could bring myself to use the hole saw). I live outside of Atlanta and summers here are brutal. That unit kept the boat under 70 if that's where you wanted it. My current boat has an M16 (16k Btu ) mermaid unit with RC heat and I find that the heat output is much better than the electric model. Our water temp is usually pretty warm even on cold winter days.

I have run that unit constantly for several years now and find the guys at mermaid to be a pleasure to work with. I recently replaced the compressor and it was under $600. I also like the digital controls. They use a control exactly like what you would find at Home Depot or Lowes (made by Hunter fan company) and even the admiral can operate it. As often as I hear of problems with the controls on marine air units costing big bucks, this can be replaced for under $50 by anybody.

You can buy direct from them and if I remember correctly they have some trade in models that were very reasonable with full warranty.

Good luck...

Dan

[Cocktail Time]

If you are worried about a wet floor, check this out...

http://www.mmair.com/marine_division/accessories/mermaid_condensator

This condensator will remove water from your condensate pan by sucking it out with the discharge line. Very cool idea and I have not seen this anywhere else.

Dan[/img]

[Arizona240DA]

Cocktail, that looks slick.......have you seen one in action; do you have one installed?

[Sorrento 25]

In your vintage 240 there is no provision built into the boat to isolate the A/C unit from the hull liner. For a proper installation an isolation divider needs to be constructed and installed to prevent air from the hull liner from being pulled into the return air for the A/C unit. If this is not done you will have a very stinky cabin on your hands.

This is not clear to me. Isn't there a dedicated return duct anyway? What do you mean by "hull liner?"