Depressed about Moisture

markhpc

Member
Apr 9, 2019
47
St. Croix River, MN
Boat Info
2003 Cruisers Yachts 3970 Express
Engines
Twin Mercruiser 8.1S HO Inboards
Hi Folks,

First time buyer here. My wife and I have spent quite a bit of time looking at and learning about boats over the past two years and I find myself becoming somewhat depressed as we look. I own a thermal imaging camera and a moisture meter (and a metal object to tap with), so whenever we go out to look I bring them with and inspect the stringers, transom, hull, and decks. At first I wasn't terribly confident in my ability to detect anything, but as time goes on I've gotten a better feel for the tools and what things should look and sound like.

Previously we were primarily looking at 80s-90s boats and pretty much all of them had major moisture issues (except amazingly for an old Chris Craft Commander that was really dated but surprisingly dry). The most recent boat we looked at was a 2001 410DA with high moisture and slight (but audible) thud when you tap it on the central starboard stringer aft of the engine mounts. It appeared to have elevated moisture in the transom on the same side. The bow deck near the anchor had high moisture too (and the stanchions all had a small ring of elevated moisture around them, but it wasn't too bad). The 410DA was in far better shape than an early 90s Portofino we recently looked at (debonded fiberglass and parts of the stringers were rotten to the point of being hollow!), but I'm still worried about the high moisture.

Are my expectations too high? Is it possible to find a dry boat from the 90s or early 2000s?

Thanks,
Mark
 

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Dry is an unrealistic expectation for a 20 year old boat. Solid and safe are reasonable expecations, but some degree of moisture is just plain normal.

The Commander is an exception. Fiberglass was a new technique back then, so builders built them thick and heavy.
 
I think the issue I'm having now is that I don't know what my threshold should be for "walk away" vs "Good enough to survey". How well does the marine plywood hold up under high levels of moisture? Do elevated levels now mean rotten stringers in 10 years and a boat that can't be sold?
 
I think the issue I'm having now is that I don't know what my threshold should be for "walk away" vs "Good enough to survey". How well does the marine plywood hold up under high levels of moisture? Do elevated levels now mean rotten stringers in 10 years and a boat that can't be sold?

That is a great question. Many on here will tell you to look for a completely dry boat, which is the perfect option in a perfect world, but we do not yet exist in a perfect world. I too wrestled with these questions as I looked for a boat. My thinking boiled down to any vessel up for consideration that would have any type of "elevated" moisture must have ALL features and options from the required list, almost all from the want list, and be in the condition that would warrant taking on any "elevated" moisture.

Once the vessel checked all those boxes then we are to the question of what is acceptable vs. no go, to even pay for a survey. I would suggest a no go if any major structure part is 40% or above. That is for stringers, transom, deck, and hull. I carried a home model moisture meter then later borrowed my Brokers pro model to do my own testing as I looked and got pretty adept at determining the moisture levels. I personally think anything in the 20-30% range are workable and would try to get some concession from the seller for it. Then get a quote from Dry-Boat or the like so you know what repairs cost in the worst case after you own it.

MM
 
Dry is an unrealistic expectation for a 20 year old boat. Solid and safe are reasonable expecations, but some degree of moisture is just plain normal.

The Commander is an exception. Fiberglass was a new technique back then, so builders built them thick and heavy.
Yeah the old Tim Allen way of building them -- lets add some moooorrreee.
 
Hi Folks,

First time buyer here. My wife and I have spent quite a bit of time looking at and learning about boats over the past two years and I find myself becoming somewhat depressed as we look. I own a thermal imaging camera and a moisture meter (and a metal object to tap with), so whenever we go out to look I bring them with and inspect the stringers, transom, hull, and decks. At first I wasn't terribly confident in my ability to detect anything, but as time goes on I've gotten a better feel for the tools and what things should look and sound like.

Previously we were primarily looking at 80s-90s boats and pretty much all of them had major moisture issues (except amazingly for an old Chris Craft Commander that was really dated but surprisingly dry). The most recent boat we looked at was a 2001 410DA with high moisture and slight (but audible) thud when you tap it on the central starboard stringer aft of the engine mounts. It appeared to have elevated moisture in the transom on the same side. The bow deck near the anchor had high moisture too (and the stanchions all had a small ring of elevated moisture around them, but it wasn't too bad). The 410DA was in far better shape than an early 90s Portofino we recently looked at (debonded fiberglass and parts of the stringers were rotten to the point of being hollow!), but I'm still worried about the high moisture.

Are my expectations too high? Is it possible to find a dry boat from the 90s or early 2000s?

Thanks,
Mark

You might be doing yourself a disservice. Moisture, sounding, surveying is for professionals -- because you don't know what is "good" and what is "bad." It's not the moisture that's the issue. It's more the extent of the moisture and whether the area is structural or not. That's was professionals are for.
 
The anchor is wet too? :) ... That area in a Sea Ray is very subceptable to water from not properly bedded from factory, design and age. Just have a good guy determine extent of damage and repair. You don't say where your from a fresh water board stored for the winter is going to fair better than a year around warm weather salt boat... So look around up north and consider transport would be another option
 
Hi Mike,

Thanks much! I'll update my profile. We are in Minnesota on the west side of the twin cities. Transport from Milwaukee to Minneapolis is pretty cheap but I can't imagine how much of the flybridge you'd have to disassemble to move one of those beasts. We've got a couple mid-80s commanders locally that I haven't looked at yet but to be honest we'd much rather be in something like a 390+ DA/EC or similar. I'm slowly maybe working myself up to looking at Carver aft cabins since most of 90s+ ones have the hollow fiberglass stringers and solid bottoms. Not really excited about them though.
 
You might be doing yourself a disservice. Moisture, sounding, surveying is for professionals -- because you don't know what is "good" and what is "bad." It's not the moisture that's the issue. It's more the extent of the moisture and whether the area is structural or not. That's was professionals are for.

I think that sort of gets to the root of my problem. Surely there's at least some level of due diligence a first time buyer can to do before spending $800 on a survey?
 
One thing to keep in mind about the 410's is they are a solid bottom boat. Best of my knowledge, have not heard any issues with moisture in the stringer/below deck issues. The top sides are balsa cored and can have issues, but from my search, fairly rare.

I'm pretty pleased with my 410, although as with any 20 yo boat, there are issues. A solid boat though.
 
That is a great question. Many on here will tell you to look for a completely dry boat, which is the perfect option in a perfect world, but we do not yet exist in a perfect world. I too wrestled with these questions as I looked for a boat. My thinking boiled down to any vessel up for consideration that would have any type of "elevated" moisture must have ALL features and options from the required list, almost all from the want list, and be in the condition that would warrant taking on any "elevated" moisture.

Once the vessel checked all those boxes then we are to the question of what is acceptable vs. no go, to even pay for a survey. I would suggest a no go if any major structure part is 40% or above. That is for stringers, transom, deck, and hull. I carried a home model moisture meter then later borrowed my Brokers pro model to do my own testing as I looked and got pretty adept at determining the moisture levels. I personally think anything in the 20-30% range are workable and would try to get some concession from the seller for it. Then get a quote from Dry-Boat or the like so you know what repairs cost in the worst case after you own it.

MM

While I don't take too much stock in the percentile readings from my little $40 moisture meter, I was getting about 10-15% on good stringers and readings of about 40-80% aft of the engine mount on the central starboard stringer all the way to a limber hole back near the transom. Hitting it with my metal flashlight produced a slightly more dull sound than the tight ping on the other stringer, though I noticed no debonding and it wasn't nearly as hollow sounding as some clearly bad stringers on another boat.

I did see what looked like very new clear caulk on the engine mount bolts on that stringer.
 

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I asked my surveyor about this when I bought my 310. Basically he said "If it thuds it's a dud". He then proceeded to show me the dull thud by tapping the stringer. He used his moisture meter to back up his findings in the survey, but his well-trained ears were his primary tool.

Ironically, I bought this boat after getting the seller to drop the price by 12k which paid for having the wet stringers rebuilt and the leaky water tank replaced.

So I guess you should ask yourself a few questions. Is it repairable? Will the seller pay for it? and Do I want to hassle with it?
 
I asked my surveyor about this when I bought my 310. Basically he said "If it thuds it's a dud". He then proceeded to show me the dull thud by tapping the stringer. He used his moisture meter to back up his findings in the survey, but his well-trained ears were his primary tool.

Ironically, I bought this boat after getting the seller to drop the price by 12k which paid for having the wet stringers rebuilt and the leaky water tank replaced.

So I guess you should ask yourself a few questions. Is it repairable? Will the seller pay for it? and Do I want to hassle with it?

Do you mind if I ask how the repairs were done? I've heard of everything from drilling holes every 6 inches and injecting seacast to cutting the tops of the old stringers off, grinding out all the wet wood, and splicing in new wood (or simply pooring seacast in the void) and glassing back over the top.

Mark
 
If you like the 410, walk on the “wet” area with bare feet, if you feel give, walk away. If not make an offer, hire a surveyor and if HE says it’s ok, buy it.
When you get it home, pull that hardware and reseal it all. Then go have fun.
 
One thing to keep in mind about the 410's is they are a solid bottom boat. Best of my knowledge, have not heard any issues with moisture in the stringer/below deck issues. The top sides are balsa cored and can have issues, but from my search, fairly rare.

I'm pretty pleased with my 410, although as with any 20 yo boat, there are issues. A solid boat though.

I love the layout for sure. I called Searay earlier today and confirmed that it was solid fiberglass on the bottom. Have you had any cabinet de-lamination? This one had some pretty significant clouding and de-lam on a section near the bow side of the sofa. I looked pretty hard for signs of water around that area but didn't see anything obvious.
 
You might be doing yourself a disservice. Moisture, sounding, surveying is for professionals -- because you don't know what is "good" and what is "bad." It's not the moisture that's the issue. It's more the extent of the moisture and whether the area is structural or not. That's was professionals are for.

I can with 90% certainty identify a boat the surveyor is going to call out "elevated moisture" in the stringers or bulkheads with my moisture meter. Will my levels vary from the surveyor? Yes, but I learned to adjust for that. No, I am not a surveyor but can certainly use my checks to see if I want to pay for a survey.

MM
 
I love the layout for sure. I called Searay earlier today and confirmed that it was solid fiberglass on the bottom. Have you had any cabinet de-lamination? This one had some pretty significant clouding and de-lam on a section near the bow side of the sofa. I looked pretty hard for signs of water around that area but didn't see anything obvious.


Yes, some delamination on some surfaces. The material Sea Ray used in this era was susceptible if you left the cabin un air conditioned, but usually its not from water damage. The worst spot for me is in the companion way on the cabinet holding the TV and Fridge. It just got a lot of sun and humid air over the years.

Almost every boat I looked at in this vintage had it to some degree. There are ways to repair it, or have it resurfaced if it really bothers you, but for me I just dont worry about it too much.
 
I asked my surveyor about this when I bought my 310. Basically he said "If it thuds it's a dud". He then proceeded to show me the dull thud by tapping the stringer. He used his moisture meter to back up his findings in the survey, but his well-trained ears were his primary tool.

That is how many owners ended up in a pickle selling, they used an old school surveyor and got old school results. Then the new buyers used a surveyor that had top level equipment like infrared cameras etc. and they found what was likely there when the seller bought it but did not find.

Technology is allowing buyers information that just a couple of years ago they could not have known and they are holding sellers to a new standard that may not even be fair. This is not just boats but in about any area where professional inspections are the norm.

MM
 
How about calling a 'good' surveyor and buying an hour of his time to discuss moisture readings in boats. When manufactured, wood is dried but not free of all moisture. Most wood products probably start in the 8-15% range. Moisture content can change after that due to environment even before use.

Is a 20% reading much different than a 40%...I think not. Mainly because you usually don't know the history of the moisture level. Is it a new increase, will the area at 20% become 40% next season? Wet is one thing, how much damage/rot is another that is not always clear and further investigation is needed.

Pulling a deck hatch to look at the core, or drilling a transom or stringer to see if it's mush, might not be the worst thing for an otherwise good boat depending on who is picking up the tab for inspection and repairs.
 

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