420/44 DB Owners Club

bbwhitejr said:
You might give Norflex Digestor a 3-month chance if you have not already tried it. I had no smell and continue to be smell free. Hoses show some cracks, but no leaks and no smells. Every weekend as I am leaving the boat, I put a small amount down each head with minimal water. This allows the powder to settle in the hoses and do its thing.

Just a suggestion....

Bennett
Click to expand...

In my case, the smell was in the rubber itself. The wet cloth test was the smoking gun. Not sure if a previous owner didn't use the system properly, but there was a definite smell that shouldn't be there if you got up close and personal with the hoses. Now, that said, my slip-mate said I was crazy to spend the money because he thought there was no smell to begin with!

I am pretty picky about how a boat smells. Before buying my current boat I drove 9 hours to check out a 2009 44DB and knew within 10 seconds I wouldn't be buying it. Same slip-mate, who made the trip with me, again thought I was nuts! After doing more research on the boat, I confirmed my reasoning and concerns that my nose suspected.

My goal is to be able to arrive at the boat on a steaming-hot day, with it having been closed-up for a week, and when I open the door all I smell is fiberglass. Same goes for the engine room. If a boat hasn't been cared for, this can become impossible.

No smells and dry bilges...my two OCD items!
 
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AEO said:
Hi Brian, many thanks for all the details. I didn’t realize you had to remove all those items... even the cabinets and washing machine! Do you still have those drawings from Searay? And if you do, would you be willing to share them?

I’ll be definitely taking your advice on the pipe material.

Bevin.
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For sure. Here is what was sent to me:

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Regarding the washer/dryer...you may be able to get away without removing it, but I think it would be tough. You need to remove a ton of sealant where it goes through the bulkhead to the engine room, and you need good access.

Regarding the cabinets, it might be possible to remove the toilet pedestal, remove the old sanitation line, attach it to the new sanitation line, and pull it though, but there are some loose retainers. This is the guest (port side) head:

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bajturner said:
Sorry for the confusion, yes the smell is gone. Areas where it lingered a bit were in the small storage area in front of the cabinet under the seat in the guest room, and under the port side bed. Like you suggested, cleaning with some disinfectant did the trick.

Before replacing them, I would have hesitated to store bedding or towels in those compartments, but no problem now.

What I meant by "improved" is there wasn't much smell overall to begin with, but I even notice the entire space smells fresher.
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I used to feel that this was our issue but I find once we approach 1/2 in the holding tank the odors were much stronger with each flush.
 
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Great thread and I have learned so much reading through this thread. I have been on this forum for quite a few years despite being a Rinker 360 owner. Such a great resource for a guy like me that enjoys fixing and maintaining my own boat. Well our 360 leaves us on Monday and we have an offer that was accepted on a 2004 420 DB in stony point NY. It has the cummins 6ctas which is the engine I was looking for. The boat has 1200 hours on one engine, 350 hours on the other as it was replaced by Wesco in long island back in 2014. It was chalked up to an aftercooler defect and replaced under warranty, so I was told by the previous owner. My hull and engine surveys are next week so I should have more detail on the warranty claim after that. None the less it does make me worry about the other engine. This was a yard maintained boat with lots of service records I have evaluated. Combined with the cleanliness of the engines and the rest of the boat I can only surmise the engine failure was indeed a freak thing. Anyway we are super excited to hopefully be a new 420 owner after next week. If you all have any recommendations I should hone in on next week during surveys please let me know?
The previous owner dropped about 120k in the past 3 years, so lots of fun new gadgets to enjoy (nuteak in the cockpit, sealift hydro extended platform, all new Garmin electronics, all new running gear, new JL stereo system, and more).
Look forward to continuing to learn about this boat and contributing where I can.
 
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bajturner said:
In my case, the smell was in the rubber itself. The wet cloth test was the smoking gun. Not sure if a previous owner didn't use the system properly, but there was a definite smell that shouldn't be there if you got up close and personal with the hoses. Now, that said, my slip-mate said I was crazy to spend the money because he thought there was no smell to begin with!

I am pretty picky about how a boat smells. Before buying my current boat I drove 9 hours to check out a 2009 44DB and knew within 10 seconds I wouldn't be buying it. Same slip-mate, who made the trip with me, again thought I was nuts! After doing more research on the boat, I confirmed my reasoning and concerns that my nose suspected.

My goal is to be able to arrive at the boat on a steaming-hot day, with it having been closed-up for a week, and when I open the door all I smell is fiberglass. Same goes for the engine room. If a boat hasn't been cared for, this can become impossible.

No smells and dry bilges...my two OCD items!
Click to expand...
I, like you , have heightened senses when it comes to smells. Mine does have a distinct sewerage type smell when locked up for an extended time so there’s definitely an issue there.
.
Strangely, you can tell a lot about a boat by the smells. Mould, petrol, diesel, sewerage, fiberglass etc... I lived on a boat for a few years and it was a amazing how my senses of smell, hearing and sight became heightened..
.
Thank you for the diagrams. You saved the day! I’ll keep you posted on how we get on.
 
craigswardmtb said:
Great thread and I have learned so much reading through this thread. I have been on this forum for quite a few years despite being a Rinker 360 owner. Such a great resource for a guy like me that enjoys fixing and maintaining my own boat. Well our 360 leaves us on Monday and we have an offer that was accepted on a 2004 420 DB in stony point NY. It has the cummins 6ctas which is the engine I was looking for. The boat has 1200 hours on one engine, 350 hours on the other as it was replaced by Wesco in long island back in 2014. It was chalked up to an aftercooler defect and replaced under warranty, so I was told by the previous owner. My hull and engine surveys are next week so I should have more detail on the warranty claim after that. None the less it does make me worry about the other engine. This was a yard maintained boat with lots of service records I have evaluated. Combined with the cleanliness of the engines and the rest of the boat I can only surmise the engine failure was indeed a freak thing. Anyway we are super excited to hopefully be a new 420 owner after next week. If you all have any recommendations I should hone in on next week during surveys please let me know?
The previous owner dropped about 120k in the past 3 years, so lots of fun new gadgets to enjoy (nuteak in the cockpit, sealift hydro extended platform, all new Garmin electronics, all new running gear, new JL stereo system, and more).
Look forward to continuing to learn about this boat and contributing where I can.
Click to expand...

We’ve been looking and I had an eye on that boat, looks like a nice one! Good luck!
 
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craigswardmtb said:
Great thread and I have learned so much reading through this thread. I have been on this forum for quite a few years despite being a Rinker 360 owner. Such a great resource for a guy like me that enjoys fixing and maintaining my own boat. Well our 360 leaves us on Monday and we have an offer that was accepted on a 2004 420 DB in stony point NY. It has the cummins 6ctas which is the engine I was looking for. The boat has 1200 hours on one engine, 350 hours on the other as it was replaced by Wesco in long island back in 2014. It was chalked up to an aftercooler defect and replaced under warranty, so I was told by the previous owner. My hull and engine surveys are next week so I should have more detail on the warranty claim after that. None the less it does make me worry about the other engine. This was a yard maintained boat with lots of service records I have evaluated. Combined with the cleanliness of the engines and the rest of the boat I can only surmise the engine failure was indeed a freak thing. Anyway we are super excited to hopefully be a new 420 owner after next week. If you all have any recommendations I should hone in on next week during surveys please let me know?
The previous owner dropped about 120k in the past 3 years, so lots of fun new gadgets to enjoy (nuteak in the cockpit, sealift hydro extended platform, all new Garmin electronics, all new running gear, new JL stereo system, and more).
Look forward to continuing to learn about this boat and contributing where I can.
Click to expand...

Be sure to tell your hull surveyor about the all new running gear. You’ll want him to really spend some time down there looking and tapping around.
What did he hit that he had to put in all new running gear?
Tell your Cummins tech Surveyor about the engine failure and verify if you can that the aftercooler was indeed at fault, like corroded housing that allowed seawater/salt to enter the motor. If you can’t confirm that, ask him what tests he can perform or if there is a way he can assure you the older motor wasn’t run overloaded for the first 800+ hours. Good luck.
 
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craigswardmtb said:
Great thread and I have learned so much reading through this thread. I have been on this forum for quite a few years despite being a Rinker 360 owner. Such a great resource for a guy like me that enjoys fixing and maintaining my own boat. Well our 360 leaves us on Monday and we have an offer that was accepted on a 2004 420 DB in stony point NY. It has the cummins 6ctas which is the engine I was looking for. The boat has 1200 hours on one engine, 350 hours on the other as it was replaced by Wesco in long island back in 2014. It was chalked up to an aftercooler defect and replaced under warranty, so I was told by the previous owner. My hull and engine surveys are next week so I should have more detail on the warranty claim after that. None the less it does make me worry about the other engine. This was a yard maintained boat with lots of service records I have evaluated. Combined with the cleanliness of the engines and the rest of the boat I can only surmise the engine failure was indeed a freak thing. Anyway we are super excited to hopefully be a new 420 owner after next week. If you all have any recommendations I should hone in on next week during surveys please let me know?
The previous owner dropped about 120k in the past 3 years, so lots of fun new gadgets to enjoy (nuteak in the cockpit, sealift hydro extended platform, all new Garmin electronics, all new running gear, new JL stereo system, and more).
Look forward to continuing to learn about this boat and contributing where I can.
Click to expand...
We also looked at this boat when first started our search. Believe it or not we found a few 420 DB and DA that did not have both original motors. Never heard of the defect in the aftercooler but if you have read the 6CTA thread you’ll find a common issue of dropping valves if they’re over propped. You may even be able to call Wesco to see if they can give you some history on the warranty work that was done. At the time he was priced at what we felt is pretty high but I know he has since come down. We owned ours since December and I will say you will love the boat. Just make sure you hit the recommended WOT for the motors. Being the same vintage as ours I’d have your surveyor pay close attention to the hoses. We had to have the raw water pickups and exhaust bypass hose replaced. Ultimate.ly we had no surprises and the boat surveyed well. Not too many unknowns on this model . Good luck!
 
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About overpropping these boats....is there a cutoff, hour wise, that you can get away with the boat being run and then properly propped?

For instance, SR overpropped at the factory, boat has 300 hours, and you reprop then. Has the damage been done or is that acceptable?

That’s a hypothetical. I’m not seeing a boat with that scenario, but I’m curious to what others have done with the 42/44. Probably lots of variables as well...
 
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Appreciate all the feedback. The running gear question is the one suspect thing. The broker basically said it was just time so they replaced everything. Not sure I buy it. I did specifically ask the surveyor to spend a good amount of time down there.
What is a typical life of the shafts, props, etc? I thought so long as you aren't hitting things the shafts last 20+ years. But what do I know as I'm an IO guy that is used to drives that like to disintegrate away relatively quickly...
As for the engine we have our surveyor looking into the warranty work that was done by Wesco.
 
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Irie308 said:
..... Never heard of the defect in the aftercooler but if you have read the 6CTA thread you’ll find a common issue of dropping valves if they’re over propped.
Click to expand...

Dean, I am assuming he was thinking about the fact the after cooler can and will fail without good maintenance.

The after cooler needs to be pulled off the engine, disassembled, cleaned, inspected, lubricated and reassembled at least every other year in salt water. If you don't it will corrode and fail.
 
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The defect was news to me. I am Only reiterating what the owner said. It was actually on the prior to him owners clock when it failed. I thought it strange he claimed it was repaired under warranty. Perhaps some misinformation or general misunderstanding of the failure is what’s being conveyed. I’m aware of the issues if they are not maintained. Looking at the service records it looked like they serviced it every 3 years. They are due as it looks like they haven’t been serviced in the last 5 years. Albeit the last 3 they have been in fresh water. Prior to that it was a life in salt. I already made my offer without a contingency around aftercooler service but if the survey comes back where this is a critical item to address, what do you guys think about asking for him to complete an aftercooler service prior to sale? He wants the boat gone however the boat is priced to sell so he may simply say no. I suppose I could walk and then I’m out my survey dollars. I’m leaning more towards I’ll just do the service myself and ask for concession dollars from the seller. What does an aftercooler service usually run as a baseline for potential negotiations?
 
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craigswardmtb said:
The defect was news to me. I am Only reiterating what the owner said. It was actually on the prior to him owners clock when it failed. I thought it strange he claimed it was repaired under warranty. Perhaps some misinformation or general misunderstanding of the failure is what’s being conveyed. I’m aware of the issues if they are not maintained. Looking at the service records it looked like they serviced it every 3 years. They are due as it looks like they haven’t been serviced in the last 5 years. Albeit the last 3 they have been in fresh water. Prior to that it was a life in salt. I already made my offer without a contingency around aftercooler service but if the survey comes back where this is a critical item to address, what do you guys think about asking for him to complete an aftercooler service prior to sale? He wants the boat gone however the boat is priced to sell so he may simply say no. I suppose I could walk and then I’m out my survey dollars. I’m leaning more towards I’ll just do the service myself and ask for concession dollars from the seller. What does an aftercooler service usually run as a baseline for potential negotiations?
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I own that model 420 SB since new, which is 15 years and probably have some authority with my opinion.
The aftercooler service where they get removed, disassembled etc. is due about every 5 years, not 2 years as someone stated. The job for both coolers including removal and reinstallation cost me about $3k each time. If you are a DIY person you can save some money, but the port side especially is a tough job!
The one thing that can ruin the aftercooler after a short time (with the subsequent engine failure) if you you don’t pay attention to the lower zinc in the aftercooler. On my boat it often doesn’t make it through the season.
The port side again is critical, as on the early boats there wasn’t even enough space to insert a full length zinc. I had Sea Ray come out and drill a hole in the stringer to give access to insert a new full length zinc.
Overall, it’s a great boat and I did have my props readjusted early on as it came a little over propped from the factory. Make sure you can reach at least 2,600 rpm at WOT
 
Turns out the previous owner struck rocks. The broker didn't know what he was talking about, surprise. The struts were ripped out so there was fiberglass damage. What do you think, cause for concern. Harborside Marine in Port Jefferson NY did all the work.
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Well, at least they were forthcoming with the info. You now know what the damage was and what to have your surveyor look out for. I wouldn't be concerned if the work was done right and will hold up over time.
 
Does anyone know if the bottom is solid fiberglass or is it cored? Perhaps this failure is more of an issue, with regards to holding moisture, if it were a cored bottom? Being they ripped the strut bolts out I can only assume some water found its way in. With that said the repair shop has a good reputation so I would think it was done right.
 
After the experience a friend had with his 2004 420SD a couple of years ago at roughly 750 hrs, I would be interested to know if any head work was done on the 1200 hr engine. The 480 CE engines have been known to drop valves and the heads were redesigned at least a couple of times before they discontinued the model. Harold went ahead and had both heads replaced after he dropped a valve. Depending on where you are on price you might consider replacing the head out of an abundance of caution to avoid a possible failure which would result in costly engine removal just for repair. Harold was able to have his engine repaired but it had to be pulled as the 420 hasn't the room under the engine to drop the pan for insitu rod removal. As I remember the cost of replacement of the head was around $8500.
Either way, you are going to love the boat. Always great to find a boat that the previous owner sank unrecoverable boat bucks in!
Carpe Diem
 
Carpediem44DB said:
After the experience a friend had with his 2004 420SD a couple of years ago at roughly 750 hrs, I would be interested to know if any head work was done on the 1200 hr engine. The 480 CE engines have been known to drop valves and the heads were redesigned at least a couple of times before they discontinued the model. Harold went ahead and had both heads replaced after he dropped a valve. Depending on where you are on price you might consider replacing the head out of an abundance of caution to avoid a possible failure which would result in costly engine removal just for repair. Harold was able to have his engine repaired but it had to be pulled as the 420 hasn't the room under the engine to drop the pan for insitu rod removal. As I remember the cost of replacement of the head was around $8500.
Either way, you are going to love the boat. Always great to find a boat that the previous owner sank unrecoverable boat bucks in!
Carpe Diem
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Thanks for the feedback. This is not the CE engine but rather the mechanicals. So from what I have read I don’t think the heads are really an issue. But of course feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
 
craigswardmtb said:
Does anyone know if the bottom is solid fiberglass or is it cored? Perhaps this failure is more of an issue, with regards to holding moisture, if it were a cored bottom? Being they ripped the strut bolts out I can only assume some water found its way in. With that said the repair shop has a good reputation so I would think it was done right.
Click to expand...
I hit rocks with mine and the props bashed several holes thru the bottom with chunks of the rocks. I looked at the area during the repairs and saw no evidence of any core material. There is an inner hull and space between the inner and outer hull. I only had water coming into the bilge due to a pin hole in the walk between the engines. I had no strut or rudder damage and the repairs still cost $35000 including the 35 mile tow to the yard.
 
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