The "virus" What are your thoughts

I do not believe that Chinese communist doctrine involves taking over the world. It is not religion based so they have no reason to believe that the rest of the world is evil. China does not hate America. I don't know where you would get that view. China wants to make a strong and powerful nation. Economically powerful for the benefit of its people and its leaders. Militarily powerful so it can protect its interests, not expand them. Both of those goals are the same as the US. It is very communist and dictatorial so it also wants a powerful military to control its people and keep it communist. As long as democratic countries do not try to force democracy on China (or what it believes to be China - eg Taiwan, Hong Kong) there is a balance. That could change, but there is balance and the potential for mutual benefit economically with trade (protecting IP and with balanced fair two way trade).

And nations can and do spy on each other all the time. The average internet jockey will never know what is actually going on, nor should they. And it works both ways. We spy on them and they spy on us. We catch them and plug holes, and they find other ways. They catch us, they plug holes, and we find other ways. And on and on. Nothing to start doing because its already being done.

But this virus has nothing to do with any of that. Yes it started there. It could have started anywhere and maybe the next one will be somewhere else.

I do think that the biggest worry all of us should have now is how the next ISIS or Al Qaida that are true enemies of the USA and Judaeo Christian nations are taking notes about what is the best state is to plant some future virus they are developing. Definitely makes sense to start such a biological weapon in the places where governments are slow to react or where a State government believes that the right to freedom outweighs the need to isolate and protect the vulnerable. I think we are past that stage in the US at this point. But it took well over a month. And this virus' death toll seems for the most part mostly in the older demographic. I highly doubt that a true biological weapon will work that way. And the next natural virus may not either.

Creekwood said:

Naming it does not save lives.

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Or does it? Maybe holding China accountable for their despicable handing of this incident could impact their reaction to the (inevitable) next one. Regardless, they own this.

DWABoat said:

As far as getting information out of China, where is and was the CIA? Why are we still waiting for official Chinese statistics?...
Quit focusing on the CCP and start asking the real questions: How did our intelligence community fail to start blasting horns in Washington back in December?

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There is plenty of reporting that the Intelligence Community did warn of the problem as early as November. Here's an example.

Sorry. I don’t trust ABC “sources”. They burnt that bridge years ago. Especially an article ‘today’.

Creekwood said:

I do not believe that Chinese communist doctrine involves taking over the world. It is not religion based so they have no reason to believe that the rest of the world is evil. China does not hate America. I don't know where you would get that view. China wants to make a strong and powerful nation. Economically powerful for the benefit of its people and its leaders.

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The Chinese need a market to sell their junk to. Under past administrations the Chinese made the rules of trade, which gave them unfettered access to western markets while the Chinese placed huge tariffs on anything that was attempted to be brought into their country.

Chinese culture is very racist towards the west, and always has been. They view westerners as beneath them and pawns to be used to further advance the Chinese. Also the Chinese see nothing wrong in lying, about anything, it's just how business is done. Theft of intellectual property means nothing to them, well except, if someone steals from them. Then it's brutal.

Creekwood said:

Militarily powerful so it can protect its interests, not expand them.

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China is slowly expanding their military interest around the world. Take the South China Sea, the Chinese have been building military bases in disputed areas and gaining. Why? The SCS is rich in resources, primarily oil. China has also been expanding in Africa, because of their need for resources, and they aren't there to trade.

Creekwood said:

Both of those goals are the same as the US.

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The US does indeed have a strong military to protect our interest, and our allies. But the US doesn't go around the world and build up military bases in disputed areas then start threatening others to stay out.

The huge difference here is when the US engages in a military conflict abroad, once completed we don't seize the territory and it's resources as ours. And we typically spend billions helping them rebuild.

If we acted like the Chinese, you would see part of Europe, Japan, most of the Pacific, Iraq,Afghanistan and several Central American and Caribbean countries as US territories.

Creekwood said:

It is very communist and dictatorial so it also wants a powerful military to control its people and keep it communist. As long as democratic countries do not try to force democracy on China (or what it believes to be China - eg Taiwan, Hong Kong) there is a balance. That could change, but there is balance and the potential for mutual benefit economically with trade (protecting IP and with balanced fair two way trade).

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China would over run Taiwan tomorrow if it weren't for the US. China would also absorb HKG into the mainland, except it needs the money HKG generates.

And as stated above, in no way does China want "fair trade".

Creekwood said:

I do think that the biggest worry all of us should have now is how the next ISIS or Al Qaida that are true enemies of the USA and Judaeo Christian nations are taking notes about what is the best state is to plant some future virus they are developing. Definitely makes sense to start such a biological weapon in the places where governments are slow to react or where a State government believes that the right to freedom outweighs the need to isolate and protect the vulnerable. I think we are past that stage in the US at this point. But it took well over a month. And this virus' death toll seems for the most part mostly in the older demographic. I highly doubt that a true biological weapon will work that way. And the next natural virus may not either.

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182 Countries signed on to the Biological Warfare Treaty, and China was one of them. Yet, China maintains two research laboratories inside the country researching bio warfare, and one is located in Wuhan.

Bio Warfare is nasty, and IMO worse than chemical warfare.

CaptRonn said:

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You have some good and valid points. But...I do not believe that China hates the west or the US. I don't think they are "racist" towards the US any more than the US is racist towards China. Your own views towards China are not unique.

You said that the China needs a place to sell "junk" to. That is a 50 year old concept. A huge portion of every product you own was made in China. Chinese factories can and do produce very high quality products that go into things around the world. Many of their factories are new and world class. Yes they also have the ability to mass produce low quality products and they do so. Why? Because the rest of the world often wants to buy low quality at low cost. That is what Walmart is. Go to a Walmart and shut it down and remove everything that has 50% or more chinese content. The store would be empty. If you know anything about Walmart, you know that Walmart controls everything about their product cycle. It is Walmart driving that bus, not China.

The US and many other countries also have labs doing research on biological warfare. I presume (naively hope) they want to understand how it works, primarily for the purpose of defending against it. Are you 100% sure that they are not also considering how that defense could turn into offense if it really came down to that? Wouldn't that same research be able to be re-directed if that was desired? Just in case? Once this dies down, maybe that would be a good question to ask the POTUS. He just might answer the question.

alnav said:

There is plenty of reporting that the Intelligence Community did warn of the problem as early as November. Here's an example.

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Good posting. Good discussion. This is the kind of questions we should be addressing, not whether China lied. Can we get our own information and not rely on foreign, hostile governments to provide us accurate and timely information?

If the Trump Admin failed, let’s address that. Whether China lied is not an issue, it’s assumed. That is why we fund the CIA, we know China will lie.

Of course, ABC is Trump-hating trash, so everything must be scrutinized. The first issue you see here is all the sources are anonymous. Tabloid talk. If ABC is willing to hurl the accusations, they better give some actual sources. Otherwise, the article should be disregarded. Next, it says,

“The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images.”

Okay. This tells me the intelligence had no actual US agent verifying crap inside China. No Chinese scientist on the US payroll on the inside telling our intel that the Chinese govt is freaking out and hiding this from the world and we should ban travel immediately. Specific, verifiable, credible. That is what policy makers need to shut down travel.

There are other reports Fauci warned the President there could be a pandemic during his tenure. Gee..I could have told him that. We could also have the Big One in California, so I guess we should evacuate the west coast? I even saw a movie with the Rock. (Not a good movie. Sorry Mr. Johnson - not your best work.)

If there are other articles out there, please post some links. We need to dissect them.

CaptRonn said:

Chinese culture is very racist towards the west, and always has been. They view westerners as beneath them and pawns to be used to further advance the Chinese.

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The U.S. (and other western cultures) are just as racist, let's be honest with ourselves. And make no mistake, we (the U.S. and other western countries) have exploited the massively low labor rate of China to advance our interests.

These comments about cutting off trade with China sound great in terms of "getting revenge," but if we do that, we'll see a lot of empty shelves in Wal-Marts around the country, and to stock them with U.S.-manufactured replacements would have to command much higher prices that the American public will not like.

For goodness sakes, even most of the pine nuts we eat in this country come from China!

I don't disagree we've crawled way too far into bed with China, but unfortunately turning that trend around is more like trying to change the direction of an oil tanker, not a Porsche.

Cmon. The fake news media giving facts? They’re all political.

Come the aftermath of the virus your regularly scheduled bashing of Trump and their latest conspiracies will resume.

The biological warfare research done outside of China is indeed a countermeasure research, not how to develop and deliver. China? Sorry, no trust there.

Having worked and lived with the Chinese, the insights into their culture is an eye opener. If you think they welcome westerners or look at them as equals, I have a bridge in NY you might be interested in.

As far as Chinese quality? Ever wonder why you don’t see Chinese built aircraft in our country, or Europe? The Chinese will tell you their aircraft are world class and equal if not exceed western standards. In reality, not even close. Several aircraft manufacturers here have attempted to have parts supplied from China, only to have to scrap them due to consistent flaws. Other industries experience the same problems. Those World Class manufacturing plants in China use very cheap labor and often stolen or poorly developed techniques and standards.

On the subject of Chinese junk, West Marine would be wiped out if they didn’t buy from China, as well as other marine suppliers.

I am a buy made in the USA if possible type person. However, with years of unfair trade practices our markets were decimated in favor of the Chinese over price to manufacture and sell.

There is a reckoning coming after this, and China will have the short end of the stick.

Blueone said:

So Wuhan gets the virus...it spreads to the US, Italy, India ...all European countries and the rest of the world but just a few cases in Shanghai or Beijing ?.... what doesn't sound right here?

China is back up and running including Wuhan ...the rest of the world is on lock down

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Larry Kudlow just said we're approx. 4-8 weeks from opening for business

FastMarkA said:

The U.S. (and other western cultures) are just as racist, let's be honest with ourselves. And make no mistake, we (the U.S. and other western countries) have exploited the massively low labor rate of China to advance our interests.

These comments about cutting off trade with China sound great in terms of "getting revenge," but if we do that, we'll see a lot of empty shelves in Wal-Marts around the country, and to stock them with U.S.-manufactured replacements would have to command much higher prices that the American public will not like.

For goodness sakes, even most of the pine nuts we eat in this country come from China!

I don't disagree we've crawled way too far into bed with China, but unfortunately turning that trend around is more like trying to change the direction of an oil tanker, not a Porsche.

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See how quickly you are retreating from making China do fair trade? Now they are the victim? Really? GMAFB.

On a positive note, just saw this from Canada. Allstate putting some money back to Canadians. I assume the same in the US.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/bus...llion-providing-car-insurance-rebates-to-all/

CaptRonn said:

See how quickly you are retreating from making China do fair trade? Now they are the victim? Really? GMAFB.

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Yes, because we enabled it. If we weren't buying their products hand over fist, do you really think they'd be producing them?

China used to make cassette tapes, but they stopped. Gee, I wonder why.

DWABoat said:

Good posting. Good discussion. This is the kind of questions we should be addressing, not whether China lied. Can we get our own information and not rely on foreign, hostile governments to provide us accurate and timely information?

If the Trump Admin failed, let’s address that. Whether China lied is not an issue, it’s assumed. That is why we fund the CIA, we know China will lie.

Of course, ABC is Trump-hating trash, so everything must be scrutinized. The first issue you see here is all the sources are anonymous. Tabloid talk. If ABC is willing to hurl the accusations, they better give some actual sources. Otherwise, the article should be disregarded. Next, it says,

“The report was the result of analysis of wire and computer intercepts, coupled with satellite images.”

Okay. This tells me the intelligence had no actual US agent verifying crap inside China. No Chinese scientist on the US payroll on the inside telling our intel that the Chinese govt is freaking out and hiding this from the world and we should ban travel immediately. Specific, verifiable, credible. That is what policy makers need to shut down travel.

There are other reports Fauci warned the President there could be a pandemic during his tenure. Gee..I could have told him that. We could also have the Big One in California, so I guess we should evacuate the west coast? I even saw a movie with the Rock. (Not a good movie. Sorry Mr. Johnson - not your best work.)

If there are other articles out there, please post some links. We need to dissect them.

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Unless they confirmed that this virus spread human to human like nothing we have ever seen, the reported "intelligence reports" are just noise. As of Jan 14, the WHO was reporting it wasn't transferred human to human.

FastMarkA said:

Yes, because we enabled it. If we weren't buying their products hand over fist, do you really think they'd be producing them?

China used to make cassette tapes, but they stopped. Gee, I wonder why.

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Exactly. Our government (previous administrations) opened the door on allowing China to sell whatever they wanted here, while the Chinese placed trade barriers against our products. As the Chinese flooded our market with cheap goods, retailers switched their buying and US goods fell to the wayside.

And the Chinese people loved our products, but yet because they CCP controlled trade, our goods came with heavy tariffs, thus killing that market.

FastMarkA said:

The U.S. (and other western cultures) are just as racist, let's be honest with ourselves. And make no mistake, we (the U.S. and other western countries) have exploited the massively low labor rate of China to advance our inte
These comments about cutting off trade with China sound great in terms of "getting revenge," but if we do that, we'll see a lot of empty shelves in Wal-Marts around the country, and to stock them with U.S.-manufactured replacements would have to command much higher prices that the American public will not like.

For goodness sakes, even most of the pine nuts we eat in this country come from China!

I don't disagree we've crawled way too far into bed with China, but unfortunately turning that trend around is more like trying to change the direction of an oil tanker, not a Porsche.

Click to expand...

You sir have every right to consider yourself a racist, but to make a blanket statement that the U.S. people are just a racist is ignorant at best and racism on your part at worst, not to mention the ignorance required to generalize on over 300M people in the U.S.

I agree corporations in an effort to maximize margins outsourced manufacturing to China but all this was exasperated by our wonderful politicians who by the way also sold out our country.

Perhaps this is the source of the "never Trump" hatred by our politicians on both sides of the aisle as well as the bought and paid for media and other globalists.

As a political refugee myself having witnessed the effects of a communist dictatorship and the devastation it has on a free society, I value what my country has given me and my family and I happily pay my taxes and work hard to buy made in America.

But....I am not a racist and I resent your generalization that we all are.

P.S. I was born in Havana, Cuba. I am a minority and a U.S. citizen. I have never experienced racism in this country. I have however experienced racism when I traveled to Europe.

All of this finger-pointing is just the natural progression of any given crisis. Who knew what and when did they know it? I can imagine how this will play out. There will be a "Covid Commission" that will spend two years, fact-finding. They will write a long detailed report with recommendations on how we can mitigate this kind of disaster in the future. Those recommendations will go largely ignored.

Congress will begin an endless investigation which will culminate in a partisan nothing-burger, but not until after a "bombshell" report with all of the explosive energy of a fire-cracker, is released.

wash-rinse-repeat.

Yup!!

bobeast said:

All of this finger-pointing is just the natural progression of any given crisis. Who knew what and when did they know it? I can imagine how this will play out. There will be a "Covid Commission" that will spend two years, fact-finding. They will write a long detailed report with recommendations on how we can mitigate this kind of disaster in the future. Those recommendations will go largely ignored.

Congress will begin an endless investigation which will culminate in a partisan nothing-burger, but not until after a "bombshell" report with all of the explosive energy of a fire-cracker, is released.

wash-rinse-repeat.

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While I completely agree with your assessment, I am hoping the one wild card in the deck this time has a picture of an orange man on it!

Let the wrecking ball loose!!!!!