Face Shields..

Great Lakes said:

Got it. So you selectively use his advice. Birx also recommend it too but you’re right it’s fake news..

Do you own goggles or a shield? If so then you should wear it cuz science and data says it protects you.

Click to expand...

I can't find the reference where Dr. Birx recommended face shields. When asked on F&F, she went into a long answer describing how face shields work and might be helpful under some circumstances, but no recommendation.

The night before the controversy, I was speaking with a friend (a retired Navy O-8) we take vacations with. He brought it up and we decided we would probably get face shields if and when we get on an international flight again (both of our wives are more at risk than us although all of us are up there in years). So, I don't own any face shields but am looking.

BTW, I've seen face shields in use in my area since the beginning of the pandemic. Some were cleverly integrated with ball caps and look to be quite comfortable. I suspect these folks are merely trying to protect themselves and others and are not intentionally intending to trigger others.

JVM225 said:

Your two points above highlight the difference between a “conservative” Canadian and most Americans.

While a Conservative Canadian will endorse a government run healthcare system, even Centrist Americans object to it because they want freedom of choice even if it costs a bit more. That freedom is more important to them.

While some Canadians, and citizens of other countries around the globe, seem to follow US politics closely, most Americans don’t care enough about other countries internal political affairs enough to follow them as closely and often resent it when non US citizens outside the US pass judgement or interfere with American politics.
They often disagree when their own government interferes with governments of other countries without provocation or absent a threat to American security.
I’ll bet that most Americans couldn’t name the person your current Prime Minister ran against in his last election or could tell you much else about him without resorting to Google.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. I think that that fierce defense of freedom of choice is one of the best things about the USA.

But.... I will say that Americans (and this is very much a generalization, so bear with me) generally care less about other countries ways of doing things, and that limits perspective of alternatives. Health care is a good example. From outside, we see that health care as a hot button issue in the US. Its one of the top issues for Americans. But there is a strong reluctance to look at what works in other places and get some ideas. I believe that some politicians do that, but the general population react very negatively to any view that there may be some ideas outside of the US that might work. The angry reaction on this site to any comments about what is working outside the US is an example.

alnav said:

I can't find the reference where Dr. Birx recommended face shields. When asked on F&F, she went into a long answer describing how face shields work and might be helpful under some circumstances, but no recommendation.

The night before the controversy, I was speaking with a friend (a retired Navy O-8) we take vacations with. He brought it up and we decided we would probably get face shields if and when we get on an international flight again (both of our wives are more at risk than us although all of us are up there in years). So, I don't own any face shields but am looking.

BTW, I've seen face shields in use in my area since the beginning of the pandemic. Some were cleverly integrated with ball caps and look to be quite comfortable. I suspect these folks are merely trying to protect themselves and others and are not intentionally intending to trigger others.

Click to expand...

If a mask doesn't protect the wearer, then face shields certainly won't protect the wearer. This is getting ridiculous.

Creekwood said:

I agree completely. I think that that fierce defense of freedom of choice is one of the best things about the USA.

But.... I will say that Americans (and this is very much a generalization, so bear with me) generally care less about other countries ways of doing things, and that limits perspective of alternatives. Health care is a good example. From outside, we see that health care as a hot button issue in the US. Its one of the top issues for Americans. But there is a strong reluctance to look at what works in other places and get some ideas. I believe that some politicians do that, but the general population react very negatively to any view that there may be some ideas outside of the US that might work. The angry reaction on this site to any comments about what is working outside the US is an example.

Click to expand...

Look healthcare is simple. Healthcare is rationed, as nothing is in unlimited supply. In countries that have government supplied healthcare, it is rationed by wait times. In the US it is rationed by cost. Pick your poison.

Changing directions, it was great to watch a hockey game last night, even if the Leafs lost to Columbus in game 1.
Wierd seeing the stands empty and the seats covered.

Watching the game I had a great idea for the NHL and for any other pro sports league to bring the crowd back into the games. They should build an application that will stream audio from a large number homes and bars around the country(ies) and in particular from the cities where the teams are from. Then the app would combine all the audio into a crowd sound, and stream it over the airwaves (and maybe even in the arena/stadiums for players to hear). As long as there was not much audio delay, it would bring some aural excitement that is missing now.

Golfman25 said:

Look healthcare is simple. Healthcare is rationed, as nothing is in unlimited supply. In countries that have government supplied healthcare, it is rationed by wait times. In the US it is rationed by cost. Pick your poison.

Click to expand...

Healthcare is far from simple. If it was simple, everyone in the US would be 100% satisfied with it and it would not be a hot topic for people. It is not a simple trade-off of wait times vs cost. It is much more complex than that.

The only way to really know is to truly do a detailed examination of all developed countries' systems including all parameters, and look at all of the criteria that are important and find the right balance that the voters will agree is the right answer. If you were there already there would be no issue. Even if you believe Obamacare is the work of the socialist evil empire, there was change that many Americans wanted done. And its not simple.

When I worked I had a lot of welders working for me. They all wore face shields when cutting. grinding, welding. These were not what you see on health care workers. We had problems with material getting in the eyes as the top lip was a dust collector and when lifted up the material would fall in eyes some times. Each new item is going to cause problems. In 20 years one wonders if there will be a mass class action suite over the effect of hand sanitizer.

Creekwood said:

Healthcare is far from simple. If it was simple, everyone in the US would be 100% satisfied with it and it would not be a hot topic for people. It is not a simple trade-off of wait times vs cost. It is much more complex than that.

The only way to really know is to truly do a detailed examination of all developed countries' systems including all parameters, and look at all of the criteria that are important and find the right balance that the voters will agree is the right answer. If you were there already there would be no issue. Even if you believe Obamacare is the work of the socialist evil empire, there was change that many Americans wanted done. And its not simple.

Click to expand...

Don't confuse simple with easy. We ration goods and services, including health care, in the USA by price. It's that simple.

northern said:

Question for those that have purchased masks and face shields.
Did you pay a sale tax?

Click to expand...

I dunno. The application of sales tax if there is one, is variable down to the county or even municipality across the US. I paid for some with my handy FSA debit card which I am in danger of not using up this year.

Golfman25 said:

If a mask doesn't protect the wearer, then face shields certainly won't protect the wearer. This is getting ridiculous.

Click to expand...

My understanding is the faceshield protects the wearer from droplets that may sprayed towards their face (like in a medical setting) while masks protect those around the wearer. Same goal, but different purposes for different settings, so sometimes both might make sense. 100% protection even with both? Absolutely not, but I'm of the opinion that it might help so why not? Actually President Trump said almost exactly the same thing the other day. Back in the day, I would always wear my helmet, flash and MOPP gear when going into actual or simulated combat, even though the type of warfare I was involved in would most probably lead to instant incineration if we were hit. That cost me untold amounts of sweat and discomfort, especially in the Persian Gulf. Was I being foolish/ridiculous?

alnav said:

My understanding is the faceshield protects the wearer from droplets that may sprayed towards their face (like in a medical setting) while masks protect those around the wearer. Same goal, but different purposes for different settings, so sometimes both might make sense. 100% protection even with both? Absolutely not, but I'm of the opinion that it might help so why not? Actually President Trump said almost exactly the same thing the other day. Back in the day, I would always wear my helmet, flash and MOPP gear when going into actual or simulated combat, even though the type of warfare I was involved in would most probably lead to instant incineration if we were hit. That cost me untold amounts of sweat and discomfort, especially in the Persian Gulf. Was I being foolish/ridiculous?

Click to expand...

So then you'll be wearing a mask and a shield when you go outside?

Great Lakes said:

So then you'll be wearing a mask and a shield when you go outside?

Click to expand...

As I said, we're looking at it for use during travel.

I'm not taking sides in this debate but here's a true story....My father was in the Army infantry during WW2, he said all his buddies laughed at him because he never took his helmet off. He said he figured he only had two things to protect himself with and he was going to use them all the time, he even slept with his helmet on, gun at his side because 'somethin' was better than nothin'.

To make a long story short, he was hit/wounded badly. His most vivid memory of that moment was seeing his helmet go spinning, on it's edge, like a top it spun down the street occasionally ricocheting off the curb.

He had injuries in his left side, leg, chest, ribs, collapsed lung, arm, and his head. He came home but his left arm from the shoulder down stayed in Germany. When we were kids we used to get a kick out of feeling the dents in the side of his head. If it wasn't for that helmet those dents would have been something worse and CSR would have one less member.

Golfman25 said:

Don't confuse simple with easy. We ration goods and services, including health care, in the USA by price. It's that simple.

Click to expand...

That is the outcome, not the design. But I get your point. When it comes to health care if you can pay you get better care. Lots of places decided that more universal access to health care was something government can do for the people to provide better health care for all. That is why regulated utilities exist. Last I checked they exist in the US too. And highways and roads are built and maintained for the benefit of all. The rest of the world has concluded that health care can be done the same way. They are not wrong any more than the US model is right and vice versa.

alnav said:

My understanding is the faceshield protects the wearer from droplets that may sprayed towards their face (like in a medical setting) while masks protect those around the wearer. Same goal, but different purposes for different settings, so sometimes both might make sense. 100% protection even with both? Absolutely not, but I'm of the opinion that it might help so why not? Actually President Trump said almost exactly the same thing the other day. Back in the day, I would always wear my helmet, flash and MOPP gear when going into actual or simulated combat, even though the type of warfare I was involved in would most probably lead to instant incineration if we were hit. That cost me untold amounts of sweat and discomfort, especially in the Persian Gulf. Was I being foolish/ridiculous?

Click to expand...

The problem isn't droplets, it's aerosols. I suppose if your next to someone coughing and sneezing right in your face, a face shield may help. But how often does that happen. Aerosols will go right up the inside of that shield and right thru you cloth mask.

Creekwood said:

That is the outcome, not the design. But I get your point. When it comes to health care if you can pay you get better care. Lots of places decided that more universal access to health care was something government can do for the people to provide better health care for all. That is why regulated utilities exist. Last I checked they exist in the US too. And highways and roads are built and maintained for the benefit of all. The rest of the world has concluded that health care can be done the same way. They are not wrong any more than the US model is right and vice versa.

Click to expand...

It's not about ability to pay, it's about rationing. American's don't like their healthcare rationed via wait times. "Free" government healthcare has to be rationed. Just like in places when there isn't enough power, they ration it with brown outs. Roads are rationed via the "rush hour."

Blueone said:

What is going on here ??


https://news.trust.org/item/20200803034958-vm6ei

The devices will track wearers' movements, and any attempt to leave home will trigger an alert to the authorities

Click to expand...

Look at the settings on your phone....there is a COVID tracker setup already on there....they updated the software in the background a month or so ago...when everyone was having phone "trouble"

Blueone said:

What is going on here ??


https://news.trust.org/item/20200803034958-vm6ei

The devices will track wearers' movements, and any attempt to leave home will trigger an alert to the authorities

Click to expand...

Singapore is a very authoritarian country, and Hong Kong is China. Very different. You will love this one though. Canada has developed a contact tracing app for devices. It is totally voluntary. It does not use GPS, but uses Bluetooth to communicate with other phones. There is anonymous tracking of who you have come into Bluetooth range of and that history is on your phone. Not names, just an identifier number/code. If you are tested positive, you enter that in the app. Then system will alert others that you have been near in the past 14 days that they may have been in contact with someone that had/has COVID. It just says you have been exposed. Not where, or who. The purpose is to help people know when they have potentially been exposed so they can watch for symptoms or get tested.

You won’t be surprised to hear that I have installed the app and have no concerns with the privacy aspects.

Creekwood said:

Healthcare is far from simple. If it was simple, everyone in the US would be 100% satisfied with it and it would not be a hot topic for people. It is not a simple trade-off of wait times vs cost. It is much more complex than that.

The only way to really know is to truly do a detailed examination of all developed countries' systems including all parameters, and look at all of the criteria that are important and find the right balance that the voters will agree is the right answer. If you were there already there would be no issue. Even if you believe Obamacare is the work of the socialist evil empire, there was change that many Americans wanted done. And its not simple.

Click to expand...

You know the ONLY thing that hasn't been tried? Letting doctors and hospitals set their prices just like every other service in the US and letting us pay for it? I don't need to have the government provide my hair cuts, automobile service, marine service, laundry service, grocery service, or any other service or product. I pick all of those using my freedom to do it on my own. The very definition of freedom. Why does it have to be more complicated than any of those? Let the government regulate the standards and practices, but get out of everything else. Bad doctors will fail, the government can regulate it to stop maliciously bad or incompetent people from practicing, and the good ones will grow their businesses like everyone else. It is very bloody simple.

The reason it is a hot topic? Some people want other people to pay for theirs. "It's a right", they say. I'll translate that for you. "If I don't go to work, you go to work and pay it for me so I can go to the beach.". Going to work to support someone else under coercion is the literal definition of slavery. If the government is the middleman using the tax code as a mechanism, then that coercion is the threat of going to jail for not giving another person some thing of value that you don't want to give them. Without the government in the way (and the resulting insurance situation) the problem could easily be solved. Look at Space X as an example. They made it look easy while clearly advancing Americas space capabilities right back to the top of the stack. NASA was failing to innovate. They switched from exploration to observation and lost that American pioneering spirit. Our government is now just a customer, and Space X is the innovator and explorer.. That is absolutely perfect, and how everything is supposed to work here. We do not exist to support our government. The government exists to support us. We don't need them to put us in space, and we certainly don't need them to fix a broken arm.

What about the poor? Let's see. We have 'professional' athletes that make enough money in their signing bonus to build hospitals in their old neighborhoods. Do they do it? Very few do, and kudos to them. More need to step up. We have the musicians and Hollywood good for nothings that could easily provide healthcare for unknown thousands of people just throwing checks in the cocktail party salad bowl. Do they do it? A little, but they absolutely must spend hundreds of millions on TV ads bashing the snot out of Trump all year instead of putting it to good use buying healthcare for poor people. The rich can do it. If they want to. Too bad a lot of them don't. I think Jeff Bezos can actually pay for all of it. The social justice crowd has that bunch's ear right now. Maybe they should ask? er... request... er.... threaten