Rudder Angle working on SC5000 but not on new Garmin 8612

J

Jason_Peters

Member
Jun 15, 2020
46
Bellevue, NE
Boat Info
2004 420 Sundancer
"Naut Flyin' II"
Engines
Merc 8.1's
Gents,

What are we missing here? It has to be something silly. 2004 420DA. My electronics guy did my helm upgrade today, and everything (Engine data, depth, etc.) from the SC5000 is being displayed on the Garmin units (GPSMAP8612 & GMI20) except the Rudder/Steering Angle. But, Rudder/Steering Angle is still displaying just fine on the SC5000...

Thoughts? Why would everything else come across the network, but not the rudder? Thanks!
 
Jason_Peters said:
Gents,

What are we missing here? It has to be something silly. 2004 420DA. My electronics guy did my helm upgrade today, and everything (Engine data, depth, etc.) from the SC5000 is being displayed on the Garmin units (GPSMAP8612 & GMI20) except the Rudder/Steering Angle. But, Rudder/Steering Angle is still displaying just fine on the SC5000...

Thoughts? Why would everything else come across the network, but not the rudder? Thanks!
Click to expand...
How did they get the data from SmartCraft network to NMEA 2k? It’s possible the gateway used doesn’t translate rudder angle on the SC network. Also possible it is being translated, but not understood by the Garmin...
 
My 320 has a rudder position sensor, not sure why, also has a heading sensor, so I think it had auto pilot at one point and it was removed? I might track where it goes, but the data appears on the SC5000, so my guess is the sensor is connected to the Smartcraft network at some point, or maybe NMEA 0183 into the SC5000? That’s why I think the OP has installed a gateway between SC and NMEA 2k, and is expecting it to translate over...
 
The SC5000 System View was retained, but hidden under the helm, as it drives the 4" main gauges at the helm. A Mercruiser Smartcraft gateway was installed in order to translate/receive Smartcraft data to N2K for the new Garmin displays.

Interestingly, the engine data, depth, etc. all come across the new Garmin system, but the rudder angle does not. The Merc gateway does support the rudder angle PGN (127245), but no one seems to know how the data from the legacy Smartcraft rudder sensor, which is plugged into Smartcraft via the starboard engine harness, presents its data. Thus it's displaying normally on the SC5000, but nothing shows on the new equipment. Stumped.

The installer is suggesting I replace the old sensor with a Raymarine M81105 Rotary Rudder Sensor, and a Garmin GRA 10 Rudder Angle Adapter to get it over to N2K on the Garmin's. Obviously, I'd rather save the $$ and figure out why its not translating in the first place.
 
Jason, do you have an autopilot? These normally have their own rudder sensor. If so, you should be able to see that on the Garmins. I think the legacy Smartcraft rudder sensor, which I have, sends the angle over the CAN network along with tank levels and such, all of which are on the same harness. Instead of a gateway, I have a VV4 which displays the Smartcraft rudder sensor angle. But, I also have an autopilot sensor I can see on my Garmins. The VV is translating the Smartcraft data to NMEA 2000, I would think probably the same way as your gateway does. Since I can see the Smartcraft rudder angle on the VV and autopilot's on the Garmin, I honestly don't know whether the Smartcraft rudder angle is coming through but can check the NMEA 2000 data stream the next time I get to my boat. I am thinking it might be suppressed by default because most boats may have an autopilot rudder sensor and sending that over NMEA 2000 might cause contention as both would probably use the 127245 PGN.
If you don't have an autopilot and the data doesn't get translated, another thought would be to get a Mercury rudder angle display. I was looking at some old Smartcraft documentation and saw those were an option, did a quick search and found they were still on sale for about $75. Part number is 79-8M0052851. Looks like they plug directly into the existing sensor. Not NMEA 2000, I think I would argue that's not absolutely necessary in this case as long as you can reliably see the rudder angle when you need it.
 
alnav said:
Jason, do you have an autopilot? These normally have their own rudder sensor. If so, you should be able to see that on the Garmins. I think the legacy Smartcraft rudder sensor, which I have, sends the angle over the CAN network along with tank levels and such, all of which are on the same harness. Instead of a gateway, I have a VV4 which displays the Smartcraft rudder sensor angle. But, I also have an autopilot sensor I can see on my Garmins. The VV is translating the Smartcraft data to NMEA 2000, I would think probably the same way as your gateway does. Since I can see the Smartcraft rudder angle on the VV and autopilot's on the Garmin, I honestly don't know whether the Smartcraft rudder angle is coming through but can check the NMEA 2000 data stream the next time I get to my boat. I am thinking it might be suppressed by default because most boats may have an autopilot rudder sensor and sending that over NMEA 2000 might cause contention as both would probably use the 127245 PGN.
If you don't have an autopilot and the data doesn't get translated, another thought would be to get a Mercury rudder angle display. I was looking at some old Smartcraft documentation and saw those were an option, did a quick search and found they were still on sale for about $75. Part number is 79-8M0052851. Looks like they plug directly into the existing sensor. Not NMEA 2000, I think I would argue that's not absolutely necessary in this case as long as you can reliably see the rudder angle when you need it.
Click to expand...

The boat does not have an autopilot. What I don't get is that the legacy Smartcraft rudder sensor is the only thing from the Smartcraft network that's not coming through the gateway to the Garmin's. Since the old SC5000 is now hidden under the helm, I've got no rudder display readily available. Not a deal breaker for operating the boat, but it's annoying me...
 
I checked my system today and the rudder angle PGN 127245 is definitely being transmitted by the VesselView NMEA 2000 port. So, I've got two instances of the same data since I have a steering sensor for the autopilot. On the Garmin 8612, I was able to create a rudder angle indicator on an engine gauge page. I also found a source selection page for rudder angle that would let me toggle between my two sources.
Did you try to set up a rudder angle indicator on your Garmin?
 
alnav said:
I checked my system today and the rudder angle PGN 127245 is definitely being transmitted by the VesselView NMEA 2000 port. So, I've got two instances of the same data since I have a steering sensor for the autopilot. On the Garmin 8612, I was able to create a rudder angle indicator on an engine gauge page. I also found a source selection page for rudder angle that would let me toggle between my two sources.
Did you try to set up a rudder angle indicator on your Garmin?
Click to expand...

That makes sense if you have the newer Vessel View system. The old SC5000 System View does not have NMEA 2000. I haven't been at the boat to fiddle with it, but last I remember nothing showed up on the sources page. Will have another look when I'm back at it this weekend.
 
Jason_Peters said:
That makes sense if you have the newer Vessel View system. The old SC5000 System View does not have NMEA 2000. I haven't been at the boat to fiddle with it, but last I remember nothing showed up on the sources page. Will have another look when I'm back at it this weekend.
Click to expand...
My theory was that the Mercury Gateway you have uses the same technology to do the Smartcraft-to-NMEA 2000 translation that my VesselView uses. I have no way of knowing whether it's valid but, since the Gateway documentation says it supports the rudder angle PGN, it would make sense. I was just verifying the Garmin could see the rudder angle and display it. I did find out that there is about a 5 degree difference between my two sensors and need to get to ground truth on that issue, so doing it helped me out.
 
So, to close the loop. We could not get the old sensor working, it simply will not show up anywhere else other than the old SC5000. I also noticed the same problem with the air temp. Anyhow, I ended up going ahead with the upgrade to a Raymarine M81105 Rotary Rudder Sensor, and a Garmin GRA 10 Rudder Angle Adapter and its working great on the new displays. I'm researching a replacement for air temperature.

It would seem the upgrade from the SC5000 isn't as plug an play as I'd hoped. By the time I get everything operational, the only thing the SC5000 will be there for is to drive the four old 5" Smartcraft analog gauges.

Old:
Sea Ray 420 Helm Old.jpg

New:
Sea Ray 420 Helm Upgrade.jpg
 
alnav said:
Jason, do you have an autopilot? These normally have their own rudder sensor. If so, you should be able to see that on the Garmins. I think the legacy Smartcraft rudder sensor, which I have, sends the angle over the CAN network along with tank levels and such, all of which are on the same harness. Instead of a gateway, I have a VV4 which displays the Smartcraft rudder sensor angle. But, I also have an autopilot sensor I can see on my Garmins. The VV is translating the Smartcraft data to NMEA 2000, I would think probably the same way as your gateway does. Since I can see the Smartcraft rudder angle on the VV and autopilot's on the Garmin, I honestly don't know whether the Smartcraft rudder angle is coming through but can check the NMEA 2000 data stream the next time I get to my boat. I am thinking it might be suppressed by default because most boats may have an autopilot rudder sensor and sending that over NMEA 2000 might cause contention as both would probably use the 127245 PGN.
If you don't have an autopilot and the data doesn't get translated, another thought would be to get a Mercury rudder angle display. I was looking at some old Smartcraft documentation and saw those were an option, did a quick search and found they were still on sale for about $75. Part number is 79-8M0052851. Looks like they plug directly into the existing sensor. Not NMEA 2000, I think I would argue that's not absolutely necessary in this case as long as you can reliably see the rudder angle when you need it.
Click to expand...
Alnav is it possible to get this and be able to hook it up to a dedicated rudder
Display or gauge?
 
RBB said:
Alnav is it possible to get this and be able to hook it up to a dedicated rudder
Display or gauge?
Click to expand...
RBB, yes, certainly. The simplest and cheapest solution would be a dedicated Mercury indicator. I was looking at some old Smartcraft documentation and saw those were an option, did a quick search and found they were still on sale for about $75. Part number is 79-8M0052851. Looks like they plug directly into the existing sensor and the output is shown on a small gauge.
upload_2020-9-7_7-1-56.jpeg

You could also try to do Smartcraft-to-NMEA 2000 conversion but that is an awful lot of effort and cost just for rudder angle and in the OP's case, it didn't work for rudder angle for some reason.
 
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I know this is from last year. I'm in the same situation. I just got off the phone with Merc and he told me if it's being transmitted through the CAN and I have the gateway it should show up on the Chartplotter. If it doesn't call the chartplotter company. (Garmin). I know they will have no idea! He said to get a NMEA Diag tool to see if its there. Not sure what that is, but will look it up. I did just install an autopilot and would be nice to have it see it. Anyone have any other ideas without spending more like Jason?
 
Shaps said:
@mnm99
a NMEA2k diagnostic is something like a maretron usb100
https://www.maretron.com/products/usb100.php

That coupled with their free software will let you see what is on the the N2k network and what PGNs they are sending.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I cant do $300 to find this out. This is crazy, Its listed on Merc Gateway as a device that will show up Rudder 127245/0x1F10D TX. My chart plotter sees all other gauges. From what I have been researching, I'm not the only one.
 
The Actisense NGT-1 also will do the job quite well. They have a free NMEA Reader application that will display all of the fields in the PGN as well.

I have all three mentioned here (YDNR-02, IPG100, NGT-1), the Maretron is very useful and works great but the Actisense is more comprehensive. The Yacht Device isn't bad in a pinch but doesn't break out the fields like the Actisense does.
 
mnm99 said:
I know this is from last year. I'm in the same situation. I just got off the phone with Merc and he told me if it's being transmitted through the CAN and I have the gateway it should show up on the Chartplotter. If it doesn't call the chartplotter company. (Garmin). I know they will have no idea! He said to get a NMEA Diag tool to see if its there. Not sure what that is, but will look it up. I did just install an autopilot and would be nice to have it see it. Anyone have any other ideas without spending more like Jason?
Click to expand...
Not sure it will help, but here is a rudder angle configuration screen on my VesselView. Mine is set to PCM0 but has several other options. Does the gateway interface have anything similar to adjust settings?
IMG_1392.jpeg
 
If anyone has one I can borrow maybe we can work something out. Thanks
 
did this ever get resolved? im going to be upgrading my SC5000 smartcraft to a vesselview 502 and honestly i use my rudder indicator everytime I dock.
 
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