agreed. Our previous owner but 10k into our engines alone less than a year ago, and it wasn’t even major deferred maintenance. Coolant, impellers, ran overhead on both, replaced one of the injector cups, all filters, etc.
Boat shopping never seems to end. The quest continues.
- Thread starter SeaNile
- Start date
agreed. Our previous owner but 10k into our engines alone less than a year ago, and it wasn’t even major deferred maintenance. Coolant, impellers, ran overhead on both, replaced one of the injector cups, all filters, etc.
This is right on, especially now. I’m really glad I jumped on my new boat last fall. We had sold the last boat and decided on a specific model for the next one. We had planned to wait until the spring to buy, but had a 1 year old model fall in our lap. It was earlier that we planned, but surveyed well so we did the deal. There wasn’t a lot of inventory then, but now there’s NONE listed on YachtWorld. I think we’d be boatless if we hadn’t acted.
Pirate Lady
Well-Known Member
i am not sure i agree, manifolds, risers, outdrives are the same repair cost regardless of age, and the older boats are a lot simpler to maintain for those mechanically inclined, fridge breaks, cost the same regardless of model age.
SeaNile
Well-Known Member
I appreciate everyones comments and although I have not purchased this boat and given many details I might as well do that now. I might kick myself in the ass for this in the future but here it goes.
What I have found is what I believe is the second most well cared for 450 out there with Frank's being first place. This particular boat has been with the same owner since 2004 and has all the maintenance records, receipts, etc. The husband has his captains license as well as being a deep water rescue diver, wife is a pilot for both airplane and helicopter, both have been boating their entire lives and recently both retired. They have had numerous boats before purchasing this one in 2004.
Their goal started with a plan about 2.5 years ago to take about 2-3 years and do The Great Loop with the Sea Ray. This meant going through every possible system on the boat, $4000 in new charger and batteries, Cat going over absolutely everything mechanical starting from the thru hull to exhaust. After coolers, heat exchangers were removed and cleaned, they even went so far as to remove, inspect and clean the turbos as good measure. COVID hit, they postponed the trip and unexpectedly they bought boat with a layout more conducive to the trip, more like a motor yacht with large bridge and a big roomy light cabin. In addition to these two boats they also have a Mastercraft ski boat because who doesn't like to ski at ages 69 (him) and 70 (her).
Boat showed as well as any used boat I have ever seen. Not a blemish to be found, engines perfectly clean, not a stain on the carpet, even all the caulk on the boat was clean and white. It's been keep in a covered slip since 2004, the canvas and isinglass from 2006 is also in perfect condition, not a scratch rip or tear anywhere. Boat is often detailed and even the top of the radar arch is waxed and polished. Dirtiest thing I could find was the bottom of the radar array.
They thought about putting the boat in a warmer climate and using it as a summer home but they decided, as well all know, that neglect and not using a boat is a death sentence. So, with damn near a tear in their eye they have decided to sell the boat. It's not a fire sale and we have not agreed on a price yet but I will let you knows know that final number when we get that far.
So the $5000 check i'll have to write is accurate to get the swim platform fixed. It's not damaged, wasn't slammed into a dock but rather one of the screws from the davit bracket was the area that let the water in. Probably doesn't need to be immediately replaced but so far that is the one thing that needs to be addressed. Oh, the other big to-do on his list is to finish changing the interior bulbs to LED.
Yep, I could buy this boat and something catastrophic could happen just like with any other mechanical purchase. But I swear this is the nicest, well cared for boat with owners who take pride and joy in their boat and it shows. For a 1996 it's literally a show stopper. We spent about 3 hours going over the boat together and it was very obvious they take great pride in this boat.
I'll upload a few pics when I can get to them so you guys can see for yourself. I think I've found the one. Engines are 3116 420hp with 1205hrs, generator has 1400 hrs.
What I have found is what I believe is the second most well cared for 450 out there with Frank's being first place. This particular boat has been with the same owner since 2004 and has all the maintenance records, receipts, etc. The husband has his captains license as well as being a deep water rescue diver, wife is a pilot for both airplane and helicopter, both have been boating their entire lives and recently both retired. They have had numerous boats before purchasing this one in 2004.
Their goal started with a plan about 2.5 years ago to take about 2-3 years and do The Great Loop with the Sea Ray. This meant going through every possible system on the boat, $4000 in new charger and batteries, Cat going over absolutely everything mechanical starting from the thru hull to exhaust. After coolers, heat exchangers were removed and cleaned, they even went so far as to remove, inspect and clean the turbos as good measure. COVID hit, they postponed the trip and unexpectedly they bought boat with a layout more conducive to the trip, more like a motor yacht with large bridge and a big roomy light cabin. In addition to these two boats they also have a Mastercraft ski boat because who doesn't like to ski at ages 69 (him) and 70 (her).
Boat showed as well as any used boat I have ever seen. Not a blemish to be found, engines perfectly clean, not a stain on the carpet, even all the caulk on the boat was clean and white. It's been keep in a covered slip since 2004, the canvas and isinglass from 2006 is also in perfect condition, not a scratch rip or tear anywhere. Boat is often detailed and even the top of the radar arch is waxed and polished. Dirtiest thing I could find was the bottom of the radar array.
They thought about putting the boat in a warmer climate and using it as a summer home but they decided, as well all know, that neglect and not using a boat is a death sentence. So, with damn near a tear in their eye they have decided to sell the boat. It's not a fire sale and we have not agreed on a price yet but I will let you knows know that final number when we get that far.
So the $5000 check i'll have to write is accurate to get the swim platform fixed. It's not damaged, wasn't slammed into a dock but rather one of the screws from the davit bracket was the area that let the water in. Probably doesn't need to be immediately replaced but so far that is the one thing that needs to be addressed. Oh, the other big to-do on his list is to finish changing the interior bulbs to LED.
Yep, I could buy this boat and something catastrophic could happen just like with any other mechanical purchase. But I swear this is the nicest, well cared for boat with owners who take pride and joy in their boat and it shows. For a 1996 it's literally a show stopper. We spent about 3 hours going over the boat together and it was very obvious they take great pride in this boat.
I'll upload a few pics when I can get to them so you guys can see for yourself. I think I've found the one. Engines are 3116 420hp with 1205hrs, generator has 1400 hrs.
Attachments
Last edited:
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,153
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
[QUOTE="sbw1, post: 1198646, member: 506
25 year old boats are always going to have things pop up that need expensive fixes. They are like old airplanes. You can keep them running/flying forever but it gets very expensive as the years pass by. The market is unforgiving when it comes to price, unless there is something unusual about the item being sold. Very old Porsches come to mind. They command a premium. Old Sea Rays, not so much.[/QUOTE]
I don't think not generalizations like this are necessarily true. Now, if the 25 year old boat still has its original air conditioners, freezers, ice maker refrigerator, etc, then it becomes a more believable statement. However, if the boat has been well cared for and kept updated, then the older boat may actually have a lower continuing maintenance cost than a nearly new neglected boat.
25 year old boats are always going to have things pop up that need expensive fixes. They are like old airplanes. You can keep them running/flying forever but it gets very expensive as the years pass by. The market is unforgiving when it comes to price, unless there is something unusual about the item being sold. Very old Porsches come to mind. They command a premium. Old Sea Rays, not so much.[/QUOTE]
I don't think not generalizations like this are necessarily true. Now, if the 25 year old boat still has its original air conditioners, freezers, ice maker refrigerator, etc, then it becomes a more believable statement. However, if the boat has been well cared for and kept updated, then the older boat may actually have a lower continuing maintenance cost than a nearly new neglected boat.
SeaNile
Well-Known Member
SeaNile
Well-Known Member
These 3126 engines sure do cause some sleepless nights. Here are my new findings on the 1996 450 with 3126 420 hp Cats which I am very interested in.
8NM00856
8NM00848
Local Cat dealer only has records for the SN 848 engine although a few of the receipts do mention "work done to both main engines."
The one receipt from 2005 does mention warranty work with replacement of head and long block.
REPLACE LONG BLOCK
PERFORMED SEA TRIAL TEST ON COOLING SYSTEM ON
STBD ENGINE.FOUND COOLING SYSTEM BEING PRESSURIZED
WITH COMPRESSION.REMOVED ALL ASSESSORIES AND
PULLED CYLINDER HEAD.FOUND BLOCK CRACKED
IN 4 CYLINDER.CUSTOMER HAD MARINA REMOVE
ENGINE FROM VESSEL. DISASSEMBLED ENGINE COMPLETELY
.INSTALL REMAN CYLINDER HEAD ON REMAN SHORT
BLOCK AND TORQUED.ASSEMBLED ENGINE USING
COMPONENTS FROM OLD ENGINE.CUSTOMER HAD MARINA
Also had "low power" in 2015 they removed the turbos, cleaned them and all is well.
Boat currently has 1200hrs.
Spoke to the service manager at the local Cat dealer who knows this boat well and said he can't explain why there are only records for one engine but if he cant imagine not checking the other engine during the 05 rebuild. Also mentioned the "low power" complaint is pretty common with these engines and a simple cleaning of the turbos resolves the issue 99% of the time.
He said to take a deep breath and if things have been running smoothly since 05 and we do a good survey I should be confident in the engines.
My next step is to confirm via receipts when after coolers, oil coolers and heat exchangers were cleaned.
FYI- Reading through 180+ threads on boat diesel about these engines (or any engine I suppose) will make you paranoid!!!
Thoughts?
8NM00856
8NM00848
Local Cat dealer only has records for the SN 848 engine although a few of the receipts do mention "work done to both main engines."
The one receipt from 2005 does mention warranty work with replacement of head and long block.
REPLACE LONG BLOCK
PERFORMED SEA TRIAL TEST ON COOLING SYSTEM ON
STBD ENGINE.FOUND COOLING SYSTEM BEING PRESSURIZED
WITH COMPRESSION.REMOVED ALL ASSESSORIES AND
PULLED CYLINDER HEAD.FOUND BLOCK CRACKED
IN 4 CYLINDER.CUSTOMER HAD MARINA REMOVE
ENGINE FROM VESSEL. DISASSEMBLED ENGINE COMPLETELY
.INSTALL REMAN CYLINDER HEAD ON REMAN SHORT
BLOCK AND TORQUED.ASSEMBLED ENGINE USING
COMPONENTS FROM OLD ENGINE.CUSTOMER HAD MARINA
Also had "low power" in 2015 they removed the turbos, cleaned them and all is well.
Boat currently has 1200hrs.
Spoke to the service manager at the local Cat dealer who knows this boat well and said he can't explain why there are only records for one engine but if he cant imagine not checking the other engine during the 05 rebuild. Also mentioned the "low power" complaint is pretty common with these engines and a simple cleaning of the turbos resolves the issue 99% of the time.
He said to take a deep breath and if things have been running smoothly since 05 and we do a good survey I should be confident in the engines.
My next step is to confirm via receipts when after coolers, oil coolers and heat exchangers were cleaned.
FYI- Reading through 180+ threads on boat diesel about these engines (or any engine I suppose) will make you paranoid!!!
Thoughts?
Last edited:
The rebuild doesn’t sound like it was the result of the soft block issue, those were normally high blow by, smoke, and oil consumption. It could just have been a situation where the engine had an issue and cat stepped up. Being so long ago and done by the dealer, I wouldn’t worry about it.
as far as the low power and dirty turbos - cleaning them, along with the aftercoolers, is part of routine maintenance. Mine have about 1000 hours and they we’re not terribly dirty. A light film of black on each that cleaned up easily ( radiator shop did my aftercoolers)
what oil is being used in the engine? If it’s not the CAT SAEO or similar then you’re likely to get fouled aftercoolers and turbos as a result.
The service manager at the local Cat dealer is giving you sound advice. Spending any amount of time on boatdiesel.com will make you question even owning a diesel powered boat no matter what the brand.
Carver370
Well-Known Member
- Mar 30, 2007
- 1,928
- Boat Info
- 2000 Sea Ray 400 Sundancer - Diesel
- Engines
- T-3116 CAT - 350 HP
I’d venture a guess that a good majority of the 1996-1998 3126’s in these boats have been replaced early on. I know of 5 of them that are local to me.
Once that was figured out they all have 700-1600 hours on them without issue.
Once that was figured out they all have 700-1600 hours on them without issue.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,153
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Perhaps true, but there is no way to know how many engines were replaced because Caterpillar never published those numbers. However, there were 2 causes for engine replacements in t hat time period: 1. soft valve stems where the valve stems wore down and caused the valve stem keepers to release and pop out. A Diesel engine that drops a valve usually was a total loss.Most of the valve stem keeper failures fails at 150 or fewer hours. 2. The soft block issue where the engine block just wore out due to cylinder wear. This failure was also covered by Cat's warranty on any engine that evidenced high oil consumption and excessive blow by. Once Caterpillar repaired or replaced the engines, the owners experience no more problems and have enjoyed a normal service life
Like Ray, we has a 7-8 450EB's 400,450 DA's and 400DB's that Cat repaired in our marina alone. One owner had his 3126's fail, Cat replaced the engines with new 3126's and within 3 months,Cat did a break-in Service and found that the new engines also were soft block engines. They replaced the engines with a second set of 3126's which were good engines. The local Cat dealer bored and sleeved the first set of replacement engines, replaced the heads with remanned heads, installed new pistons and then sold them to a charter boat operator who installed them in a 40 customer charter boat. We was out of the water for a bottom job at the same time I was last winter and I asked about the engines. He was right at 12,000 hours a year ago with no problems other th an a couple of alternators and seawater pumps and one fuel pump.
If I were to buy a boat with 3126's in it the engine survey would be a lengthly one and include a blow-by test, and inspection of the turbochargers, and I would need to see 5+ years of old samples (or enough to see any wear metal or contaminant trends.)
Ain’t that the truth? It can be a wealth of knowledge, but any length of time spent there can convince you that your perfectly healthy, well maintained engines are a ticking time bomb
SeaNile
Well-Known Member
I agree, any time spent researching engines, specially diesels, will have you question the entire idea of owning a boat.
Seems like every engine manufacturer and model has weak points. I’m just trying to make an educated decision and in the process not drive myself crazy.
Seems like every engine manufacturer and model has weak points. I’m just trying to make an educated decision and in the process not drive myself crazy.
Stee6043
Well-Known Member
Thoughts? It's not too late to buy another gas boat
lol! It's really a good point. I love our cats, but the 'whole package' was the reason I bought the boat and not just the engines. I wouldn't exclude gas powered 400/410s if I were still looking, especially given the low inventory and ridiculously high asking prices. I saw a 410 listed the other day for $170k...
Carver370
Well-Known Member
- Mar 30, 2007
- 1,928
- Boat Info
- 2000 Sea Ray 400 Sundancer - Diesel
- Engines
- T-3116 CAT - 350 HP
And its sold with two backup offers!
SeaNile
Well-Known Member
Interesting, the boats I looked at a few weeks ago the owners have been emailing this week asking me if I’m still interested as they are now in my price range. I mean the one boat was so very over priced and here he is reaching out. If he was in my ballpark I would have bought that boat a month ago and I’d be a proud Regal owner!
IDK, just had one I was looking at sold out from under me while waiting for owners response to a few questions. Guy bot it sight unseen for full asking price. Must have a rich Nigerian uncle or something.
- Oct 6, 2006
- 12,153
- Boat Info
- 1996 450DA
- Engines
- 3116 Caterpillars
Please don't make a mistake here you will regret as long as you own the gas powered boat.
The boats you are considering, (400DA and 410DA are in a whole different league with diesel engines. More fun to run, easier to handle, much more economical, safer, maintenance is simpler, easier and cheaper. etc. etc. etc. I'm not being a spoiled sport here because you have already passed on our boat because I am not willing to meet your budget, which has absolutely nothing to do with the value my boat represents.
I was in the same spot about 25 years ago that you seem to be in today. I had a hard time spending the money it took to buy my 450 25 years ago, but as I look back on it, it was absolutely the best boating decision I ever made. We never fear guardian mode shut downs, ECM failures, Cool Fuel failures/replacements, etc. and never once have we failed to complete a trip on time due to a part or system failure. We don't have $450 water pump rebuilds because a $64 impeller kit replaces everything that needs periodic replacement.
Try to maintain perspective here. If you are a long term boater and I suspect you are because you've been here as long as I have. What will happen when your kids get to college age? We used our boat as an incentive to keep the family enjoying the beach and the water together and it added a lot of years to our fun activities together as a family. Only as our grand kids are now approaching college graduation has their interest begun too change. Having a big, safe, comfortable boat has added a lot of years to our family time together and you just cannot calculate the value that adds to the decision you are about to make, not only for my wife and, I but also for our kids who are not in their late to mid 40's.......this is why the 450DA has been a member of of our family for 25 years!
The boats you are considering, (400DA and 410DA are in a whole different league with diesel engines. More fun to run, easier to handle, much more economical, safer, maintenance is simpler, easier and cheaper. etc. etc. etc. I'm not being a spoiled sport here because you have already passed on our boat because I am not willing to meet your budget, which has absolutely nothing to do with the value my boat represents.
I was in the same spot about 25 years ago that you seem to be in today. I had a hard time spending the money it took to buy my 450 25 years ago, but as I look back on it, it was absolutely the best boating decision I ever made. We never fear guardian mode shut downs, ECM failures, Cool Fuel failures/replacements, etc. and never once have we failed to complete a trip on time due to a part or system failure. We don't have $450 water pump rebuilds because a $64 impeller kit replaces everything that needs periodic replacement.
Try to maintain perspective here. If you are a long term boater and I suspect you are because you've been here as long as I have. What will happen when your kids get to college age? We used our boat as an incentive to keep the family enjoying the beach and the water together and it added a lot of years to our fun activities together as a family. Only as our grand kids are now approaching college graduation has their interest begun too change. Having a big, safe, comfortable boat has added a lot of years to our family time together and you just cannot calculate the value that adds to the decision you are about to make, not only for my wife and, I but also for our kids who are not in their late to mid 40's.......this is why the 450DA has been a member of of our family for 25 years!
I couldn't agree with this more. We have a young family, my wife and I are in our early 30s with a 2 year old. I made a larger investment on our boat to get Diesel engines and went up to the 410 versus other 360/370/380’s that we looked at. We’re in this boat for the long haul and I hope I can post here in 25 years how good of a decision it was, and I hope the diesel power is one of the reasons why. My biggest complaint (aside from size) on our other boat was the amount of times we cut a trip short because of mechanical failure of some kind. Mostly small finicky mercruiser parts so I ended up with a parts bin that could put a parts shop to shame.
