1998 330 Sundancer Batteries/Charger

Hi all,

So, relative newbie here. Bought our first cruiser a year ago and already upgraded to the above in Sept. We have only had it out once and waiting for this crazy Ontario lockdown to end to start the season. Sorry in advance for a very long post with tons of questions. Feel free to ignore if you don't have the time or inclination to read and reply.

We had issue with the house batteries in the fall and then one of the engines wouldn't start due to dead cranking battery. Had to bridge to get both to start. At first I thought it was the charger and had been preparing to change it out this spring, however, the marina did some testing as part of spring commissioning and said 5 out of 6 batteries were toast (makes sense based on what I noted in the fall). I should note here that the previous owner had 6 of the same dual purpose Total batteries for use as both starting and house.

So, I have a few questions about where to go from here. I've done the flooded vs AGM battery comparison and think I am just going to go with flooded at least for house batteries for now as there are other expenses like a new windlass for this year. I figure when these die I will move up to AGM or maybe even lithium at that time.

1) So, I know one of the cranking batteries is on the same branch as the house batteries, at least two of them (I have 4 house batteries). Can I have a cranking battery and 2 (or 4) deep cycle batteries on the same branch?

2) I still have the OEM charger in there I believe...Pro Mariner 30. I see it is a 3 bank. Am I correct in assuming that one bank would be hooked up to one cranking and 2 (or 4) batteries, one more to the other cranking battery alone, and a third possibly to another 2 house if not part of that first branch?

3) I would further assume that these three banks are not very "smart". As such, I assume they do not detect AGM vs flooded or starting vs deep cycle, nor is there a way to program the charger. Correct?

4) In an ideal situation, I am looking at 4x120Ah flooded cells for the house and probably put a simple battery monitor on them and having them on one bank of the charger, then 2 cranking batteries, either each on their own of the other two banks or set up as now with one of them on the same bank as 2 or 4 house batteries. How would you connect these up? Other questions may influence this answer...

5) It seems to me that most, if not all, AGM batteries are deep cycle and not for starting. I know you can use deep cycle for starting but not recommended. So, are all/most cranking batteries flooded cell?

6) I had originally been thinking of putting 2 AGM for starting and the 4 flooded for house, but if I wanted to have one starting and 2 or 4 house on the same bank as they currently are, can I mix AGM and flooded on the same bank? I know it makes more sense to have AGM for house but, as mentioned, its a cost thing for now.

7) I assume all 4 house batteries need to be the same?

8) Should a put in a new smart charger at the same time? If so, what would be a good basic smart charger for now? I am looking at adding a Magnum or similar Inverter/Charger next year or the year after so if I can make the old one work for now, considering everything above, even better.

Thanks for getting this far and, if you have the time, forming a reply to assist. Much appreciated.

Mike

Yes get a smart charger. Pronautic 1230 is a direct swap.

Not an expert in the 330 battery layout, but you seem to have a hodgepodge of stuff going on. I'd cut to the chase and get two starting batteries -- one for each engine. Then has many deep cycle house batteries you think you'll need. I have had good luck with the maintenance free west marine batteries which turn out to be the same as at farm and fleet for a few $ cheaper. Good luck.

I may be able to simplify this somewhat.

1) replace ALL of your batteries.
2) don't change the existing wiring until you are well familiar with how it is currently configured.
3) upgrade to a smarter charger. I'm partial to the new ProMariner ProNautic series.
4) upgrade to a smarter charger. I'm partial to the new ProMariner ProNautic series.
5) did I mention upgrading your charger?

All batteries in a given bank should be of the same type, size, and vintage. Strongly consider going with AGM. A new smart charger will allow you to set a charge profile specific to the battery type. In combination with AGM, you will no longer be a slave to checking acid levels. That's probably what killed your current batteries; either that or prolonged storage without a charger.

My standard advice for batteries is don't get too hung up on deep-cycle vs. dual purpose vs starting. Just get the biggest baddest AGMs to can physically fit and afford and move on to the next project.

I have not seen a 330 with 6 batteries. Would love to see a picture of how two more house batteries were stuffed into the bilge.

The typical battery setup in a 330 is the two batteries in the port bilge are for the house and starting the port engine. Of the two batteries underneath the aft facing helm seat, one is for starting the starboard engine and the other for starting the generator.

LTD.330 said:

I have not seen a 330 with 6 batteries. Would love to see a picture of how two more house batteries were stuffed into the bilge.

The typical battery setup in a 330 is the two batteries in the port bilge are for the house and starting the port engine. Of the two batteries underneath the aft facing helm seat, one is for starting the starboard engine and the other for starting the generator.

Click to expand...

I appreciate all of the input so far. It does help.

That said, I have no generator (did not come with one) but have two batteries under the aft seat. I had assumed one for each engine and one in parallel with two of the house batteries. Will have to take a closer look when I go up this Saturday.

I'm pretty mechanical having done a lot of my own service last year and always on vehicles so the idea of rewiring isn't that scary to me.

Aside from the wiring conversation I can give a big +1 on the Pronautic chargers. A very easy DIY swap. You can get 'em off Amazon or Defender Marine or a bunch of other places.

Do you have Batteries Plus in Canada? They have great prices on Duracell flooded cell batteries. I've been quite pleased with them. I'd also follow along with the suggestion to replace them all. Imagine the piece of mind you'll have this year with a new charger and all new batteries...

mike519ca said:

I appreciate all of the input so far. It does help.

That said, I have no generator (did not come with one) but have two batteries under the aft seat. I had assumed one for each engine and one in parallel with two of the house batteries. Will have to take a closer look when I go up this Saturday.

I'm pretty mechanical having done a lot of my own service last year and always on vehicles so the idea of rewiring isn't that scary to me.

Click to expand...

I have the same boat, also without a generator. So here are some comments. I am assuming the prior owner left the basic wiring as set up.

The starboard engine and house bank is fed from the two batteries under the cockpit seat. The port engine is fed from the batteries in the bilge. You can verify that by turning off the battery switch on one side and seeing which engine won't get power and whether the house gets power or not.

If you have six total, the I assume that the 4 are in the bilge as the port bank. That is a lot of capacity, but that is OK. It is possible that the prior owner switched the house feed from starboard to port so that the large battery bank was available for the house load. I have done that on my boat. If the 4 battery bank is not the house bank, that makes no sense, but it can be switched over. The house feed comes off the back of the battery switch and can be moved from the starboard switch to the port one (just be careful to connect to the right terminal on the other switch so that it can be turned off when the switch is off)

I also replaced my Promariner 30 charger because it started to overcharge and kill batteries. I went with a Pronautic 1240 to get the extra amps to charge the golf cart bank. I had to upgrade fuses in the charger feeds to the batteries. My boat had 30a fuses that were fine with the 30a charger but not with the 1240 that can push all 40 amps to the one side. I was blowing fuses.

I have a 2x6v Rolls Surette flooded deep cycle golf cart bank in the bilge as my port/house bank. They will handle deep discharge better than AGM and last longer in that kind of cycle use.

If you have 4 in the bilge and its not clear how they are wired, but if there are no switches right near that bank, I expect they are all in parallel. That may or may not be the house bank.

My starboard bank are group 27 dual purpose (cranking and deep cycle- flooded). Its not a house bank but I wanted lots of capacity on that side in case I needed to bridge/emergency start.

All batteries on one bank need to be the same exact battery and the same age (replace them all at once).

I had many of the same questions when I got my 1997 330 last year. I ended up just replacing all batteries with AGM. Prior owner had upgraded to a smart charger already.

The 90's 330DA was available in stern-drive and v-drive, big block, small block, generator or not. I assume that explains why they seemed to have nearly every battery layout possible from the factory. Assumptions of battery config couldn't be made in 1998, so they sure as heck can't be made now!

LTD.330 said:

I have not seen a 330 with 6 batteries. Would love to see a picture of how two more house batteries were stuffed into the bilge.

The typical battery setup in a 330 is the two batteries in the port bilge are for the house and starting the port engine. Of the two batteries underneath the aft facing helm seat, one is for starting the starboard engine and the other for starting the generator.

Click to expand...

Well, I was wrong....there are 8 batteries!!!!! Spent the day up at the boat figuring things out and taking a few pics to post. Now that I can clarify the setup, any further advice is appreciated...



So, all but two batteries are on starboard side and under seat. Blue and green are connected in series, all are deep cycle (all batteries appear to be deep cycle). I am suspecting these are port starting and house. I didn't have a ton of time to inspect in great detail but these are hooked up to the port battery switch under the aft seat as well. Also of note, two are interstate, two are total but all in series....ugly.

Red are connected in series as well but are on their own (two batteries) and connected through the starboard battery switch so I am assuming based on what the original config would have been that these are only for starboard starting.



So, port side, forward bilge, we have two more deep cycles that it appears were only connected to a Xantrex Pro XM 1800 inverter that is mounted in the cabinet space right above the batteries, below the sink. As a side note, there is also a Fusion 2 channel amp mounted in there). As for the output of this inverter, all they have done is installed a power cord with a male 3 prong lug on it, I assume, to back power a circuit or something. Strange.

So, all batteries are shot and will be replaced (in some form) and a Pronautic 30A smart charger installed. I will share my plan below and ask for your input again, however, I think I am 90% settled on flooded 6V for house batteries for now and will upgrade to AGM or Lithium in a couple years. I know it wold be better to go straight there but I need to draw the budget line somewhere considering everything else that needs to be done to the boat.

1) I would like to separate the starter batteries into their own banks, so, one starting battery (not deep cycle) on each of the first two charger banks and have them located where the starboard cranking batteries are now (starboard rear bilge). Will stick with flooded likely here as well or an affordable AGM if I can swing it.
2) I would like to put 4 x6V 230Ah batteries in the starboard forward bilge (where the interstate batteries in the pic are). I will hook these up in two sets of two, hooked up 2x2 in parallel then these pairs hooked up in series giving me 12v 460Ah for house only.
3) I am thinking of having no batteries under the aft seat and sealing off that compartment so no gases can get up into that cubby, and install the Xantex in there, possibly along with the Fusion amp (for subs only). I don't really care about losing that bit of storage as there is still plenty for us on deck. I want to install the inverter so that it has house battery DC in as well as input from the AC panel (shore power) then output to an AC 3 switch subpanel to hook up outlets primarily (may skip this and just run two or three outlets in series if I can run the wiring as such). The inverter does have a transfer switch built in so should make this easy enough. I know its only 1800 watts but that should be good enough for almost everything we need.

So, am I thinking right (or OK at least!) or should I keep the inverter and a couple batteries on a separate bank? If so, not sure how I would manage this with the three bank charger. I am pretty confident just have 460Ah on a house bank should be plenty good enough for direct house load as well as feeding DC to the inverter.

As a side note, I assume the inverter draws a little power even when not outputting. Am I better to install a battery switch for the DC input on it save batteries when not needing the inverter?

Any input appreciated!!

That is a lot of battery capacity!. FYI they are installed in parallel, not series. Installed in series is two batteries installed positive to the other’s negative. That increases overall voltage to 24v. Yours are parallel. Pos to Pos and neg to neg. That increases capacity but leaves voltage at 12v.

You could just leave the set up the way it is as long as you replace all batteries. The smart charger has 3 banks, which is what you have now. Having the house on a separate bank from the inverter is not a bad idea. Inverters will draw a lot of amps so having it on its own is a good idea. I put a switch on mine so I can turn it off competely. You also want to ensure you have a good fuse on 12v in side of the inverter.

Creekwood said:

That is a lot of battery capacity!. FYI they are installed in parallel, not series. Installed in series is two batteries installed positive to the other’s negative. That increases overall voltage to 24v. Yours are parallel. Pos to Pos and neg to neg. That increases capacity but leaves voltage at 12v.

You could just leave the set up the way it is as long as you replace all batteries. The smart charger has 3 banks, which is what you have now. Having the house on a separate bank from the inverter is not a bad idea. Inverters will draw a lot of amps so having it on its own is a good idea. I put a switch on mine so I can turn it off competely. You also want to ensure you have a good fuse on 12v in side of the inverter.

Click to expand...

yes, sorry, completely misspoke. I meant parallel.

so, you think I would be wise to have two batteries feeding the inverter in a separate bank? If so, then I would have to keep one starting battery on the same bank as the house (since the stand alone starting battery would then take the third charger bank). If I did that, I would have to use a deep cycle as the starting battery on that side to keep all in that bank the same.

Can I not keep the house batteries and inverter on the same bank but still have the cut out switch on the inverter in so that I can shut the inverter right off when not using it? With 460Ah for house/inverter, I am thinking I should be ok, or am I missing something?

thanks!!

The downside is that your entire house and inverter bank will not charge from the engines. So if you are not at marinas to connect to shore power then you will run both house and inverter down. That wouldn’t work for me but might be ok for you.

The biggest problem in battery life is really two things - not fully charging them up and discharging too far. It's surprising many of us get even one year from such expensive things with the way they are treated.
Eight group 27 batteries with even a 50 amp multi-stage charger would take literally days to fully charge.
With that many batteries you could have a Pronautic 3/10000 charger (irony) and still not achieve a healthy system if they are discharged too far or not allowed to fully charge. You have so many sick batteries only because they were not taken care of.
How do we know if we are taking care of the batteries? Simply, we don't; Sea Ray doesn't install monitoring or instrumentation to appropriately take care of them... It seems to me that battery problems must be the number one problem folks bring up on this forum.
How does one work around these boat's limitations? Well first, always keep the charger turned on when not using the boat; we have no clue if they are in float or not so we have to trust the charger over time. The volt gauges in our boats do not have enough resolution to understand if the batteries are at float or not (know a State of Charge). Secondly, for lack of anything better, watch the volt gauges and when the inverter or anything else drops the voltage to 11 volts, stop the drain; it's time to recharge. Below 11 volts irreparable damage to the batteries happens.
I would say for the battery bank without the inverter loads that a single or possibly two dual purpose Group 27M batteries are needed; that's it. Anything larger simply can't reasonably be charged. By the way do not use anything but dual purpose batteries for our boats in an OEM configuration; never use deep cycle batteries in an engine starting circuit. On the other bank if you want to add a battery or at most two to support an inverter that would be the limit to achieve reasonable charging and battery life.
So, what to do if larger battery banks are really desired - get the instrumentation to properly monitor like a Victron BMV 712 which is probably the cheapest thing you will spend to save thousands in batteries; it's a 200 dollar investment...

Creekwood said:

The downside is that your entire house and inverter bank will not charge from the engines. So if you are not at marinas to connect to shore power then you will run both house and inverter down. That wouldn’t work for me but might be ok for you.

Click to expand...

Could I not use an isolator switch (or whatever its called) to run one of the alternator leads to then to the batteries?

ttmott said:

The biggest problem in battery life is really two things - not fully charging them up and discharging too far. It's surprising many of us get even one year from such expensive things with the way they are treated.
Eight group 27 batteries with even a 50 amp multi-stage charger would take literally days to fully charge.
With that many batteries you could have a Pronautic 3/10000 charger (irony) and still not achieve a healthy system if they are discharged too far or not allowed to fully charge. You have so many sick batteries only because they were not taken care of.
How do we know if we are taking care of the batteries? Simply, we don't; Sea Ray doesn't install monitoring or instrumentation to appropriately take care of them... It seems to me that battery problems must be the number one problem folks bring up on this forum.
How does one work around these boat's limitations? Well first, always keep the charger turned on when not using the boat; we have no clue if they are in float or not so we have to trust the charger over time. The volt gauges in our boats do not have enough resolution to understand if the batteries are at float or not (know a State of Charge). Secondly, for lack of anything better, watch the volt gauges and when the inverter or anything else drops the voltage to 11 volts, stop the drain; it's time to recharge. Below 11 volts irreparable damage to the batteries happens.
I would say for the battery bank without the inverter loads that a single or possibly two dual purpose Group 27M batteries are needed; that's it. Anything larger simply can't reasonably be charged. By the way do not use anything but dual purpose batteries for our boats in an OEM configuration; never use deep cycle batteries in an engine starting circuit. On the other bank if you want to add a battery or at most two to support an inverter that would be the limit to achieve reasonable charging and battery life.
So, what to do if larger battery banks are really desired - get the instrumentation to properly monitor like a Victron BMV 712 which is probably the cheapest thing you will spend to save thousands in batteries; it's a 200 dollar investment...

Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I will have to re-read and digest I think. I totally get what you are saying about battery treatment. I have no doubt the previous owner did not treat them properly.

Not sure what you mean about only using dual purpose batteries. I am assuming you are referring to banks where cranking and house are on the same circuit? If so, that's why I want to keep the two starting batteries on the first two banks and a house/inverter configuration on the third so I can go deep cycle just for house/inverter. Am I missing something there? Having dual purpose all around seems like a compromise with the config I am proposing.

I was planning to get a battery monitor for sure, though do you know if the remote/monitor that you can get for the Pronautic does the same things as the Victron?