MAN diesel experience?

Every engine has its issues, the QSM that was standard in that age/model Sea Ray is about the worst designed Cummins marine engine in the lineup. If it were me I would rather have the MAN's.

At one point last year we were strongly considering the 52DB. If two boats were nearly equal in age/features I would have jumped all over the one with MAN's over the QSM's.
 
I have never owned a boat with MAN engines. So purely opinions based on conversations with MAN owners, not first hand experience. I have considered buying a boat with MAN engines, that's why I did my research.

1. Maintenance on MAN engines appears to be more expensive than other alternatives. Availability of service is not as challenging as Volvos.

2. If I wanted rock solid dependability - cross large bodies of open water type of consideration - a properly maintained MAN engine would probably be the most dependable option out there.

Once again - pure opinion on my part.
 
My CRM MAN's have performed well for the 800 hours I've run them. Bought with 952 and now have 1750. The amazing part to me is the startup - no glow plugs no intake heaters, always smooth,quick starts, no smoke at any temp (well, I probably haven't been out below 40°)! The major service was $18,000, but that included the transmissions and genny. On two separate 80% load runs from Clearwater to Panama City Beach used 535 gallons the first trip and 532 the second a year later- now that's German precision!!

The CRMs, as someone said, have no 1000 hr service. It is 400/800 hour intervals. The non-CRMs DO have a 1000 hr service that includes injector replacement. My dealer once showed me one of my injectors - it was in its own Pelican case and was $1850! Yea baby times 16! Luckily, he said they never need replacing - unless you let them get dirty fuel - eachn engine has a total of 4 fuel filters, and i replace them often!

The no CRM V-8's and V-10' run on half their cylinders up to 1200 RPM, then the rest cut in. They smoke and sound like a bucket of hammers at idle! The CRMs are smooth as silk- perfect 600 RPM idle from the start.
 
We have MANs on our Princess we just bought this year. I did a lot of research before making the decision. We had full service (heat exchangers, intercoolers, and all fluids and filters) done when we bought the boat, and that cost was baked into the sale price. The MANs have performed flawlessly the entire season, including the trip from Ft Lauderdale to Baltimore. The only problem I have had is I needed to replace one of the starters, and the part was readily available and the work was done within two weeks, in the middle of the season. The MANs are smooth, powerful, quiet, and surprisingly fuel efficient. The key for me has been to consult with Performance Diesel at every step of the way. They will advise you on what you need, when you need it, and who in your area should do it, and they strive to be conservative with your maintenance spend. I have found the maintenance necessary for the engines to be far less than what I had heard from word of mouth.
 
SeaNile said:
Ouch. One MAN place says maintenance is about 15k every 2 years. Woa. That’s crazy.
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I wouldn't think so... especially if you do any/some/most of it yourself.

Two MAN dealers have told me the recommended 2-year heat exchanger and charge air cooler service can be extended in brackish (e.g., Chesapeake Bay) and especially in fresh water. One said maybe even extended to every 5 years. (Not that I'd want to push that.)

Changing oil is changing oil. Changing filters is changing filters. Changing hoses is changing hoses. Probably similar costs across engine brands when they're in roughly the same size category. And much of the cost if hired out is all about labor hours and rate.

The OIL ours want is indeed very expensive, though; a synthetic compared to normal petroleum-based oil that I've been used to in the past. Probably the recommended oil varies from engine to engine, dunno what those others might want.

Our heads didn't look like aluminum to me, and I think they weighed a ton.

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
Two MAN dealers have told me the recommended 2-year heat exchanger and charge air cooler service can be extended in brackish (e.g., Chesapeake Bay) and especially in fresh water. One said maybe even extended to every 5 years. (Not that I'd want to push that.)

-Chris
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MAN Dealer from Michigan at FLIBS said FW boats can go 10 years. I would worry about the carbon/oil build up in the charge air coolers and the turbos though.
 
Lots of research these past few days and really appreciate all the info and insight on this site. Although parts are probably a bit more and finding service isn't as easy as calling the local tractor diesel mechanic no one that I spoke to (including 5 or so marine repair places) had anything negative to say and most were surprisingly positive about MAN engines. Especially these relatively small engines. Big picture, these aren't 210hp Cummins or an old 3208 so the parts for any 650-750hp engine are a lot.

Any engine of this size without service records stands to have about 15-20k worth of work done to them, regardless of brand.

I wasn't prepared for a few of the diesel places I called to be so negative on the QSM11. "Worst engine design and engine ever put out by Cummins" was my favorite comment of the day.

Heading out tomorrow AM on a road trip to check out the MAN powered SunDancer.
 
I understand the QSM-11 is a great engine - just a poor dry manifold and turbo issue that works great in a truck with massive underhood airflow, but poorly in an ER on a boat. They used the dry manifold and turbo to purposely develope more power (heat) to the turbo.
 
SeaNile said:
Any engine of this size without service records stands to have about 15-20k worth of work done to them, regardless of brand.
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Yep, seems so.

SeaNile said:
I wasn't prepared for a few of the diesel places I called to be so negative on the QSM11. "Worst engine design and engine ever put out by Cummins" was my favorite comment of the day.
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carterchapman said:
I understand the QSM-11 is a great engine - just a poor dry manifold and turbo issue that works great in a truck with massive underhood airflow, but poorly in an ER on a boat. They used the dry manifold and turbo to purposely develope more power (heat) to the turbo.
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Yeah, Tony Athens at Seaboard Marina (sbmar.com) has been pretty vocal about those for years. OTOH, he also describes exactly how to limit fuel flow so the QSMs perform well and can last long. After reading all that I reckoned I could live with QSMs if they had been serviced and were appropriate for the boat. Some friends have been looking at 48DBs, so I had been looking at the pros/cons on their behalf... but they're tending toward older versions with Cat 3196s instead. Which also have their share of issues, apparently.

-Chris
 
ranger58sb said:
Really? Mobil Delvac 1 ESP 5W40 synthetic? That's a great tip, thanks!

-Chris
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Yep that's it. Get their app and order it on that for either in-store of curbside pick up - makes it easy. They have it in both 1 gal and 2 1/2 gal sizes. The 2 1/2 gal is the best deal. I seem to recall I could get two at a time, then waited a week for two more. I didn't look if they do home delivery.
 
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ranger58sb said:
Yep, seems so.





Yeah, Tony Athens at Seaboard Marina (sbmar.com) has been pretty vocal about those for years. OTOH, he also describes exactly how to limit fuel flow so the QSMs perform well and can last long. After reading all that I reckoned I could live with QSMs if they had been serviced and were appropriate for the boat. Some friends have been looking at 48DBs, so I had been looking at the pros/cons on their behalf... but they're tending toward older versions with Cat 3196s instead. Which also have their share of issues, apparently.

-Chris
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Skip, who opened our 58 thread, had a 52 that was MAN powered (R8 s I think) and it was a real perform,er with no mQSM manifold issues...
 
We met a couple recently who have a 2003 48DB with inline 6 electronic MANs. Not sure which ones. I didn't realize that was apparently an option on those boats back then. Could have been a transition option as SR moved from Cat 3196s to Cummins QSMs, I guess... or maybe it was an upgrade SR offered, that just doesn't show up often (ever?) in yachtworld sales...

-Chris
 
carterchapman said:
Yep that's it. Get their app and order it on that for either in-store of curbside pick up - makes it easy. They have it in both 1 gal and 2 1/2 gal sizes. The 2 1/2 gal is the best deal. I seem to recall I could get two at a time, then waited a week for two more. I didn't look if they do home delivery.
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Maybe if I can identify a likely storage slot in our garage, I'll start stockpiling. :)

-Chris
 
Found these service intervals online. No getting around them as this is straight from MAN.

Technical services

Periodicity of MAN propulsion engines maintenance

Code Service works Periodicity of maintenance
M1, M2 Primary/Annual maintenance Once in 20-60 hours, then every 200 hours
M3 Replacement of fuel filters every 200 hours *
M4 Replacement of oil and oil filters (also M1 and M2) every 400 hours
M5 Valve lash adjustment every 800 hours
C1 Commissioning, warranty, parameter setting, price After mounting of new engines, after current and capital repair
A1 Intercooler and heat exchanger cleaning Once in 2 years
A2 Replacement of cooling liquid and hoses Once in 4 years
A3 Tightening of cylinder lids First 400 hours
A4 Checking of injectors and compression every 1200 hours
R1 Extended diagnostics (also М1, М2, М3, А1, А4) 5 000 hours or upon the customer’s request
R2 Medium engine repair top overhaul (after ending С1) 10-15 000 hours
R3 Capital engine repair (after it С1 is carried out) 20-25 000 hours
P1 Preservation (also М3) Once a year – in the end of season
P2 Depreservation (also М1, М2) Once a year – in the beginning of season
Supervised installation upon request
Installation upon request
* For not CR engines of medium and heavy duty operation – periodicity makes up 800 hours

For engines V-new (V8/V12 D2862.) the regulation differs in М2, М3, М4 parts. Contact the service center for information. For yacht engines CR the M6 regulation (diagnostics and control sailing) are included in M1, M2 regulations.

Periodicity of ZF, Twin Disc gearboxes maintenance

Code Service works Periodicity of maintenance
M1 Primary/Annual maintenance Once in 20-60 hours, then every 400 hours
M3 Replacement of oil and oil filters (also М1) every 400 hours
P1 Preservation (also М3) Once a year
P2 Depreservation (also М1, М2) Once a year – 10 hours + 4 hours of tests after launching
Special services
A1 Heat exchanger cleaning, anode replacement Once in 2 years
R3 Gearbox capital repair including disassembling Upon condition or once in 20-25 000 hours

I suspect MAN engines with no service records is definitely in the 20k range to get them to spec according to the above guidance.
 
That’s what I thought when I saw this list on line. This is what MAN requires for new engines to stay in warranty. I would suggest you talk with Performance Diesel before you draw any final conclusions as to what maintenance you would actually need to do.
 
The estimate to bring our V8-900 CRMs back into service schedule -- plus a 1000-hour service on the Onan genset -- was $26K, mostly because we assumed absolutely NOTHING from the M1-M6/A1/A2 requirements had been done during the previous owner's 5-year possession period. We reduced our offer by $30K. (Then came the sea trial which added more to the estimate, and subtracted more from our offer.)

But note... much of that work is relatively straightforward, and if you do your own diesel work now you can probably just keep doing that... once the engines are out of warranty. In other words, if you can change your oil and lube filters, you can change your oil and lube filters. And then keep good records of your own work, too, so you have the history available.

Given these engines are new to us, and since our upfront price negotiations sorta-kinda paid for it, it was WAY better for us to have Gulf Coast Diesel do our restoration.

But yesterday I learned (mostly) how to change the oil filters. And next time, I'll even know how to do that a bit better. :)

-Chris
 
lawndoctor said:
That’s what I thought when I saw this list on line. This is what MAN requires for new engines to stay in warranty. I would suggest you talk with Performance Diesel before you draw any final conclusions as to what maintenance you would actually need to do.
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Agree with having a conversation with PDI, they'll be doing my annual + intercoolers & coolant w/ hoses in January
 
ranger58sb said:
Given these engines are new to us, and since our upfront price negotiations sorta-kinda paid for it, it was WAY better for us to have Gulf Coast Diesel do our restoration.

-Chris
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Wendel and his team at GCD have maintained mine for me and the PO. And the PO had records from his PO, so I was comfortable in my purchase. Before my purchase, he went over all the records and oil samples and briefed me on upcoming Maint requirements.

He has always been available by phone for questions, and one Saturday, my Dockmate, who had the next to the last 58DB (2013), had an auto shutdown with numerous red alerts, Wendel was there in 30 mins. In fact, Dawn his wife, had come along and we enjoyed having her on our boat for coffee and snacks.
 
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