About to Sign the line: '98 450DA w/3116 Cats

Captain Kirk LOTO

New Member
Jul 25, 2018
13
Boat Info
1998 450DA Sundancer
Engines
3116TA Cat
I'm at the moment, so I should have probably found this forum before now. Have the contract in front of me and looking at a low 300+ hour 450 DA with 3116's and a known single V-Drive that needs to be pulled and repaired - doesn't come completely out of gear as I am told. Fist test fdive coming next week

I'm going to have the closest Cat Service Center do the mechanical. Going to get a full Survey as well. Bottom painted in '16 but going to have to pull the rig out of the water to service the drive so we'll put eyes on the bottom.

Between the Survey and the Cat mechanical, what else should I be doing to make sure I don't get burned?

I am suspicious of the LOW hours on the analog meters - one is at 306, the other 348. I'm also suspicious of the delta. Being told there is no ECM to validate the actual engine hours. Also told I need to have the top racks listened to at the first test drive, and to then have the covers removed if we move forward from there to the mechanical to inspect lash even though the hours indicate the motors are not at the first 500 interval these 20 years later. Also told to send drive and engine oil to the lab as part of the inspection.

Anyone willing to be a guardian angel and advise me?

Thanks!

P.S. Yes I am a Sea Ray NOOB and a SR.COM Noob so be gentle. I'll be around though if we can make the deal work and the boat passes muster.
 
There is a member on here that is the resident expert on diesels and is a 450da owner. Seems you are doing all the right things, I would think Caterpillar could get any service history that was done by them. Past that I have never owned a deisel engine so I can’t offer much there. I can say the 450da of that era is a great solid boat.

I’ll say it first - we like pictures!

Good luck and welcome.
 
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There is a member on here that is the resident expert on diesels and is a 450da owner. Seems you are doing all the right things, I would think Caterpillar could get any service history that was done by them. Past that I have never owned a deisel engine so I can’t offer much there. I can say the 450da of that era is a great solid boat.

I’ll say it first - we like pictures!

Good luck and welcome.
Thank you for the response!
 
If you’re that close to buying I’d love to talk on the phone. I sent you a pm. There is quite a bit to know about these boats so I would get Mr Webster’s thoughts before you sign the ticket.
 
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AS others have said, Get Mr. Webster to help you if he is available. To this day I do not know what I would have done with out him! I owned a 1998 450 DA for 9 years. Good luck with your hunt. GOD bless, JC
 
There is a simple $175 answer to the engine hour difference conundrum. Sea Ray used Teleflex tachs on the 450DA and they are known to fail. The hand starts jumping around and there is no fix other than to replace the tachs. I suspect the tachs were replaced and Teleflex cannot run the hours up on the new tachs. A conscientious owner would have saved the replaced tachs so future owners could keep up with the correct engine hours.........I've got 3 sets in storage. The long term fix is to change to Aetna digital tachs.

Resetting the engine overheads is required at 250 hours then again at 2000 hours. The overheads means reset the valve lash and retiming the injectors. Listening to the valve lash isn't going to do much good because the valves get tighter rather than looser when they wear in.

One way, although not very scientific, to tell if this has been done is to see if the paint is scratched up on the valve cover bolts.

Caterpillar usually does not retain service and warranty records after engines are out of warranty, but you could ask your engine surveyor. Use a Cat mechanic, not a general diesel mechanic. Caterpillar has an internal fluids lab and testing process called SOS. Get the surveyor to bring sample kits for engine lube oil and coolant for the main engines and the generator as well as the transmissions. Thru Cat, the analysis is about $14 for oil and a bit more for coolant.

If your engine hours are correct, I suspect you will have some substantial deferred maintenance to catch up. See if your engine surveyor can estimate what and how much that will entail and cost. The 3116 is a very easy engine to maintain and Cat's maintenance requirements are simple. I have done all the maintenance on my engines since new except for those things requiring specialized tools and things where more than one set of hands is needed. I've had a Cat mechanic on the boat only 2 times since 1997.

The 450DA is one of Sea Ray's best boats and if you have found one with that low number of hours, it is well worth the investment needed to get everything current.

Good luck........
 
There is a simple $175 answer to the engine hour difference conundrum. Sea Ray used Teleflex tachs on the 450DA and they are known to fail. The hand starts jumping around and there is no fix other than to replace the tachs. I suspect the tachs were replaced and Teleflex cannot run the hours up on the new tachs. A conscientious owner would have saved the replaced tachs so future owners could keep up with the correct engine hours.........I've got 3 sets in storage. The long term fix is to change to Aetna digital tachs.

Resetting the engine overheads is required at 250 hours then again at 2000 hours. The overheads means reset the valve lash and retiming the injectors. Listening to the valve lash isn't going to do much good because the valves get tighter rather than looser when they wear in.

One way, although not very scientific, to tell if this has been done is to see if the paint is scratched up on the valve cover bolts.

Caterpillar usually does not retain service and warranty records after engines are out of warranty, but you could ask your engine surveyor. Use a Cat mechanic, not a general diesel mechanic. Caterpillar has an internal fluids lab and testing process called SOS. Get the surveyor to bring sample kits for engine lube oil and coolant for the main engines and the generator as well as the transmissions. Thru Cat, the analysis is about $14 for oil and a bit more for coolant.

If your engine hours are correct, I suspect you will have some substantial deferred maintenance to catch up. See if your engine surveyor can estimate what and how much that will entail and cost. The 3116 is a very easy engine to maintain and Cat's maintenance requirements are simple. I have done all the maintenance on my engines since new except for those things requiring specialized tools and things where more than one set of hands is needed. I've had a Cat mechanic on the boat only 2 times since 1997.

The 450DA is one of Sea Ray's best boats and if you have found one with that low number of hours, it is well worth the investment needed to get everything current.

Good luck........
Frank,

Thank you for reaching out. Some great pointers! I submitted the offer this evening and may know something tomorrow. If that goes well, the initial test drive occurs Friday of next week. I have been told no less than 9 times now by many sources I have reached out to in the Lake of the Ozarks boating dealer/marina community then name of one specific Cat Dealer technician to use and he is scheduled to be on the boat when we go for that first drive.

I'm guessing you are saying it without saying it that the Aetna digital gauges can be made to work on an analog motor? I'm told conflicting data but I think I have concluded that these 3116's don't have ECM's to read to determine hours. You agree?

I am very handy, I do much of the service on our German vehicles and on my Austrian motorcycles and my Duramax so maybe with your and other's help, I can get through this purchase and survive ownership!

So many thanks again to all of you! I'm already very fond of this forum. Thank you for the embrace. It's given me a wind of confidence where I was feeling fairly on my own.

Best,

Kirk
 
Kirk - The engines are simple and robust; all mechanical, no ECM. The only electrical needed to run them is for the starter motor and the fuel shut-off solenoid. Between this site and Boatdiesel.com (requires a small yearly fee) you will need to know little more on the boat, generator, equipment, and engines. Regarding the Gear - if it will not disengage and the linkages are functioning correctly it probably has warped clutch packs which is caused by not fully engaging the levers or low hydraulic pressure. Regardless, new updated ZF 80IV's are about $5K and another $3K to install. You probably have the Hurth HSW800 gears in the boat; the ZF 80IV's are the same but correct some weaknesses in the Hurth design. An area to closely survey also is the generator; it is a Westerbeke and they are very good units however should they be incorrectly started and operated damage due to water ingestion is eminent. One of my focus areas which determine how the boat was taken care of is the bonding system. The bonding system is all of the green wiring that ties the metallic components of the boat together and to the sacrificial anodes. The bonding wiring are terminated at many of the low points in the bilge (valves, strainers, rudders, struts, etc) and as a result tend to corrode and fail if the boat is not maintained. So if the terminations are solid and appear to be well maintained you can be assured the owner was knowledgeable and cared for the boat. On the other hand many of the systems and equipment on the boat if original, which seems to be the case, are well past their lifecycle and replacement will be due; these are things like:
Refrigerator
Icemaker
televisions
navigational electronics
canvas and eisenglass
batteries (no doubt not original however replace as part of your baseline)
raw water hoses
Zinc's
Cutless bearings and packings

Tom
 
Kirk - The engines are simple and robust; all mechanical, no ECM. The only electrical needed to run them is for the starter motor and the fuel shut-off solenoid. Between this site and Boatdiesel.com (requires a small yearly fee) you will need to know little more on the boat, generator, equipment, and engines. Regarding the Gear - if it will not disengage and the linkages are functioning correctly it probably has warped clutch packs which is caused by not fully engaging the levers or low hydraulic pressure. Regardless, new updated ZF 80IV's are about $5K and another $3K to install. You probably have the Hurth HSW800 gears in the boat; the ZF 80IV's are the same but correct some weaknesses in the Hurth design. An area to closely survey also is the generator; it is a Westerbeke and they are very good units however should they be incorrectly started and operated damage due to water ingestion is eminent. One of my focus areas which determine how the boat was taken care of is the bonding system. The bonding system is all of the green wiring that ties the metallic components of the boat together and to the sacrificial anodes. The bonding wiring are terminated at many of the low points in the bilge (valves, strainers, rudders, struts, etc) and as a result tend to corrode and fail if the boat is not maintained. So if the terminations are solid and appear to be well maintained you can be assured the owner was knowledgeable and cared for the boat. On the other hand many of the systems and equipment on the boat if original, which seems to be the case, are well past their lifecycle and replacement will be due; these are things like:
Refrigerator
Icemaker
televisions
navigational electronics
canvas and eisenglass
batteries (no doubt not original however replace as part of your baseline)
raw water hoses
Zinc's
Cutless bearings and packings

Tom
Thanks for the pointers Tom!
 
As I have been trying to ascertain truth around the hour meters, I'm curious if anyone can tell me if these meter are considered digital since they have a digital LED hour meter built into a dial style RPM gauge? When I hear the term Aetna digital replacement gauge, I envision a digital RPM indicator with a digital hour meter. Maybe I've got that wrong and these are in fact replacement gauges which would explain the low hour reading and the differential in hours i.e. they were replaced at different time and certainly no longer represent the actual hours. Here's the link for you to look at them. Anything else you see that is noteworthy, please tell me your thoughts/concerns: https://www.yachtworld.com/core/lis...url=ozarkyachtbrokers&&ywo=ozarkyachtbrokers&
 
The teleflex gauges are analog with a digital hour meter. The Aetna gauges are all digital. If you search on the forum you will see some great installs of the Aetna. It’s almost a no brained to change to the Aetna.
 
The teleflex gauges are analog with a digital hour meter. The Aetna gauges are all digital. If you search on the forum you will see some great installs of the Aetna. It’s almost a no brained to change to the Aetna.
You know what, that my "bad". I should have done a search! Will do that and remember to do that going forward. Now I'm acting like I'm also a forum noob but I'm not.
 
As I have been trying to ascertain truth around the hour meters, I'm curious if anyone can tell me if these meter are considered digital since they have a digital LED hour meter built into a dial style RPM gauge? When I hear the term Aetna digital replacement gauge, I envision a digital RPM indicator with a digital hour meter. Maybe I've got that wrong and these are in fact replacement gauges which would explain the low hour reading and the differential in hours i.e. they were replaced at different time and certainly no longer represent the actual hours. Here's the link for you to look at them. Anything else you see that is noteworthy, please tell me your thoughts/concerns: https://www.yachtworld.com/core/lis...url=ozarkyachtbrokers&&ywo=ozarkyachtbrokers&
Captain Kirk LOTO, Hope this works out for you. We were down last weekend looking a 450 at the Moorings. It appeared to need a lot of work. It was under contract at that time as well but the broker called yesterday and its back on the market-buyers financing didn't work out. Im curious if you looked at the other two 450"s located at the Ozarks, that are advertised on BT?
 
Captain Kirk LOTO, Hope this works out for you. We were down last weekend looking a 450 at the Moorings. It appeared to need a lot of work. It was under contract at that time as well but the broker called yesterday and its back on the market-buyers financing didn't work out. Im curious if you looked at the other two 450"s located at the Ozarks, that are advertised on BT?
We are currently negotiating on the one for sale by Ozark Yacht Broker's. Just got a counter offer back minutes ago. There are some questionable things about the boat but it looks clean for all intents and purposes. However, I am also in the middle of turning a boat we bought last year that I didn't have surveyed that was VERY clean. Been buying boats and haven't ever been without ownership of at least a single boat (usually multiples) since 1979 and I've never been burned on a used boat. This boat was one that was as clean as I keep mine which is saying something (if you knew me you would understand that comment and it's been said to me in not too complimentary of a fashion by close friends who wanted to drink a rum runner on my boat but weren't allowed) and it turned out I had to sink $8K into a rotted transom and a ton of items that the owner was very slick about concealing as we found the signs of concealing post acquisition. Tough lesson on a little $23K deal on an open bow. SO, I'm being rationally cautious on this one with Ozark Yacht brokers. I am working with a revered surveyor and he performed a national survey (has access to databases the consumer doesn't like real estate brokers do on history i.e. days on market, asking versus sold, etc., etc) done on 450's sold in the past 18 months nationally and only 3 fresh water units sold. I'm not trying to screw the buyer down to sell at a salt water sold price (averaging salt water units sold would lower the price point in an unfair manner) but both the 450's on the Lake are well over priced by $20K. I believe in the "counsel of many" and I am being told to hold tight as the next 60 days the boat listings will really sprout and I am seeing exactly that happen daily now. Regardless, I am about to counter the counter and either it'll go to the next step or it wont.

By the way, will this be your first excursion into marine diesel power like it is for me?
 
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We are currently negotiating on the one for sale by Ozark Yacht Broker's. Just got a counter offer back minutes ago. There are some questionable things about the boat but it looks clean for all intents and purposes. However, I am also in the middle of turning a boat we bought last year that I didn't have surveyed that was VERY clean. Been buying boats and haven't ever been without ownership of at least a single boat (usually multiples) since 1979 and I've never been burned on a used boat. This boat was one that was as clean as I keep mine which is saying something (if you knew me you would understand that comment and it's been said to me in not too complimentary of a fashion by close friends who wanted to drink a rum runner on my boat but weren't allowed) and it turned out I had to sink $8K into a rotted transom and a ton of items that the owner was very slick about concealing as we found the signs of concealing post acquisition. Tough lesson on a little $23K deal on an open bow. SO, I'm being rationally cautious on this one with Ozark Yacht brokers. I am working with a revered surveyor and he perform a national survey (has access to databases the consumer doesn't that like real estate brokers do on history i.e. days on market, asking versus sold, etc., etc) done on 450's sold in the past 18 months nationally and only 3 fresh water units sold. I'm not trying to screw the buyer down to sell at a salt water sold price (averaging salt water units sold would lower the price point in an unfair manner) but both the 450's on the Lake are well over priced by $20K. I believe in the "counsel of many" and I am being told to hold tight as the next 60 days the boat listings will really sprout and I am seeing exactly that happen daily now. Regardless, I am about to counter the counter and either it'll go to the next step or it wont.

By the way, will this be your first excursion into marine diesel power like it is for me?
 
Yes, first Diesel. I have guarded optimism. I have never purchased a boat that is over a few years old either. That said, We have been in the market now for over a year. I have had multiple questions answered during this time by very generous people on this site. I feel like I know what Im getting into. I, like you, have different standards than many regarding keeping up a boat. Ive traveled to Florida and been on multiple boats that are "super-clean" where I'm astounded anyone would put a boat up for sale looking like they did. It seems to me that the late 90's Searays appear to be a bargain ASSUMING maintenance has been performed and a survey that detects any issues . I would like the name of the surveyor you speak highly of. We are suspending our search until we return from an August vacation so Ill bet you will have bought your boat by then. I'll be anxious to follow your progress.
 
The only questions others have not already answered are:

Yes, the Aetna tachs are direct plug and play for Sea Ray's wiring harness.....remove the wires from the Teleflex and put them on the Aetnas. The speed sensors are flywheel tooth counters and you don't even touch them. Aetna has 2 internal sets of dip switches that are used to set up the digital tachs for any application.

The only gotcha is that the Aetna is a smaller case than the OEM tachs and you will need to handle that with a new panel or a larger bezel of some type.

The confusion on Cat ECMs probably comes from guys on your dock that don't know the evolution of Cat's 3100 series engines. The 3116TA and 3126TA are totally mechanical, there was a later 3126B and a 3126E, both had electronic controlled governors.
 

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