Canvas Situation

[Soulshine]

So the canvas enclosure on my 360 needs to be replaced after nursing it for a few years. In my area there’s only one guy doing this and he’d done my previous 2 boats over the last 7 years or so.

He built the current one in 2011 for the PO so I asked him to have a look at the end of last season and his quote blew me away. It was beyond my budget at the time and I told him that I’d have to wait since I didn’t have that much on hand at the time.

He got a bit crabby with me and suggested that he should just bring all of the materials down and I could do it myself. He left in a huff and left me there in shock. Now it’s one thing to have a monopoly and dig in on your price but it’s another to treat a repeat customer like that.

I shopped around and met a guy on the north end of the lake that I really liked. The work is slightly better but this would require a 40 mile trip north to have the work done and then a return trip. No big deal and would be fun with a friend along.

I’m awaiting the second guy’s quote and got a sense that it’s going to be higher still but I’m hoping for a surprise. He uses Strataglass and Teflon thread in addition to producing slightly more refined work.

So faced with a second whopper quote would you try to mend the fence with the 1st guy, keep it local and save money or pay the increased cost and incur the expense of the trip north.

I realize that the second quote is still an unknown and I should have it today, but it would be hard to give the business to the first guy after the way he behaved. How much is that worth?

A secondary concern is that if small repairs are needed in the future it would be less convenient to have them done if I go with the second guy.

My annoyance vs. questionable business acumen = what?

 

[Craig]

Full camper canvas in my area could easily be 8-10k. Its just plain expensive! I would prefer the local option if it were me.

 

[boatman37]

My boats are much smaller but on our 1986 250DA we had the canvas reconfigured to have isinglass above the windshield. They used all new hardware, including tubing. They used Sunbrella and it was $2200. Had our Crownline done by the same shop. It's also a 25'. Had a new cockpit cover made also. Used all existing hardware but this time we got the biminis lined with the backing so we don't need to treat it every season and also used teflon thread. All Sunbrella again. Cost was $2800. We got 2 other quotes from 2 ohter shops for the 250DA and they were $4200 and $4300 so we got it almost 1/2 price. Shop was ran and owned by Mennonites so not sure if that is why it was cheaper or not?

 

[Stee6043]

I wouldn't care if it cost me double...I would not reward the first guy with your hard earned dollars if he reacted that way. I'd use tarps from Wal-Mart before I called that guy back Seriously....

 

[CaptRonn]

Do business with someone who actually values you as a customer.

When I had my 400EC I had a local shop come out and give me a quote on just the camper back. I waited most of the morning at the boat and she finally showed up and waddled her way down the dock. Her attitude was I should be happy that she would grace me with her time and a quote. I told her there was no rush to get it done. She didn't write anything down, made a few snide remarks and left.

Texted me the next day with a quote for $5000.

I bought a sewing machine, about $800 in material from Sailrite, watched their videos and did it myself.

 

[Express 390]

So the canvas enclosure on my 360 needs to be replaced after nursing it for a few years. In my area there’s only one guy doing this and he’d done my previous 2 boats over the last 7 years or so.

He built the current one in 2011 for the PO so I asked him to have a look at the end of last season and his quote blew me away. It was beyond my budget at the time and I told him that I’d have to wait since I didn’t have that much on hand at the time.

He got immediately nasty with me and suggested that he should just bring all of the materials down and I could do it myself. He stomped off in a huff and left me there in shock. Now it’s one thing to have a monopoly and dig in on your price but it’s another to treat a repeat customer like shit.

I shopped around and met a guy on the north end of the lake that I really liked. The work is actually better but this would require a 40 mile trip north to have the work done and then a return trip. No big deal and would be fun with a friend along.

I’m awaiting the second guy’s quote and got a sense that it’s going to be higher still but I’m hoping for a surprise. He uses Strataglass and Teflon thread in addition to joust producing slightly more refined work.

So faced with a second whopper quote would you try to mend the fence with the 1st guy, keep it local and save money or pay the increased cost and incur the expense of the trip north.

I realize that the second quote is still an unknown and I should have it today, but it would be hard to give the business to the first guy after the way he behaved. How much is that worth?

A secondary concern is that if small repairs are needed in the future it would be less convenient to have them done if I go with the second guy.

My annoyance vs. bad business acumen = what?

I figure an additional grand is OK and the first guy will drive by my boat every day realizing that his behavior cost him $2000 a minute.

I wouldn't give the first guy the right time of day! Before i would ever let him do anything for me it would be a cold day in hell! I'd learn and experiment myself before he got my business again.

 

[Chris-380]

Full camper canvas in my area could easily be 8-10k. Its just plain expensive! I would prefer the local option if it were me.

Same ballpark here, i am curious what the first quote was...

 

[Henry Boyd]

Soul, you didn’t mention the price region the first guy quoted. Be that as it may, I have a policy of not doing business with those who don’t want to do business with me. If the first guy couldn’t explain his pricing and had to resort to the comments he made, m guess you are better off without him.

As I said you didn’t mention price, so I have no idea what your expectation was. Sea Rays have a lot of canvas and it costs a lot. I replaced the complete canvas with camper enclosure on our 280 and it was about $4000 when it was done with the changes, strataglass and increased rear window with zipper and screen. In contrast, I had a rear Bimini with frame made for our new boat last fall by the same maker who did our rear enclosure. It was quite a bit more than the 280 complete canvas. This was largely because of the level of finish, frame is made with larger tubing, fittings are not simple captured clevis pins, but enclosed mechanism, and zippers are hidden and so forth.

The point is not to run down the Sea Ray canvas, but to point out that canvas is an area where the old adage about time being money is very true. If a 280 canvas set was made with the same materials and features as our Sabre canvas, it would probably cost five times what vendors like Great Lakes sells it. It also means the price of a custom job can vary widely simply because there is no set specification other than fit. After that it’s a function of what the maker considers necessary.

As for distance from your vendor. After it’s completed it should be years before you see him again. Go to where you get the best balance of price and quality, you will be happier in the end. My canvas guy is located in Portland, Maine, two hours by car (three by boat) away. He arrives when he says he will, the work is quoted quickly, it is completed on time, and is top notch. The company in town, in contrast, never shows up on time and has to be chased to give a quote. The woman who runs the business never says she’s too busy, always tells you it will be ready when you want (it never is). But her work while reasonably priced and OK, just involves too much drama.

 

[GoodVibes]

Charlie when we picked up our boat up at Barrett where it was winterized for 10 years, i noticed a canvas trailer measuring another boat in the marina being measured. I had a quick conversation with the guy just saying hello and he seemed super nice and down to earth. I am sorry i forgot his name and the name of his company. I will check the maintenance records i have for our boat from the prior owner who had replaced the canvas roughly 4 years ago(and still looks brand new) and pass the info along. I would assume it was this guy i ran in to.

Not to drag anyone's name through the mud, but who was the person that was a complete jerk? I will make sure to NOT bring any of our business to him in the future when we need anything. That's just ridiculous. I agree 100% with @Stee6043 on this. I'd run to the walmart in watkins and tarp the thing before giving a penny to someone like that. Good luck. Like i said, i will pass on the information tomorrow. Stupid me, i left the records on the boat and won't be back until tomorrow evening.

So the canvas enclosure on my 360 needs to be replaced after nursing it for a few years. In my area there’s only one guy doing this and he’d done my previous 2 boats over the last 7 years or so.

He built the current one in 2011 for the PO so I asked him to have a look at the end of last season and his quote blew me away. It was beyond my budget at the time and I told him that I’d have to wait since I didn’t have that much on hand at the time.

He got immediately nasty with me and suggested that he should just bring all of the materials down and I could do it myself. He stomped off in a huff and left me there in shock. Now it’s one thing to have a monopoly and dig in on your price but it’s another to treat a repeat customer like shit.

I shopped around and met a guy on the north end of the lake that I really liked. The work is actually better but this would require a 40 mile trip north to have the work done and then a return trip. No big deal and would be fun with a friend along.

I’m awaiting the second guy’s quote and got a sense that it’s going to be higher still but I’m hoping for a surprise. He uses Strataglass and Teflon thread in addition to joust producing slightly more refined work.

So faced with a second whopper quote would you try to mend the fence with the 1st guy, keep it local and save money or pay the increased cost and incur the expense of the trip north.

I realize that the second quote is still an unknown and I should have it today, but it would be hard to give the business to the first guy after the way he behaved. How much is that worth?

A secondary concern is that if small repairs are needed in the future it would be less convenient to have them done if I go with the second guy.

My annoyance vs. bad business acumen = what?

I figure an additional grand is OK and the first guy will drive by my boat every day realizing that his behavior cost him $2000 a minute.

 

[Express 390]

I'm pretty lucky where i'm from canvas shops are a dime a dozen. I just had an Aft cover remade went to three shops the first one wanted $1600.00 , The second $1150.00, The last one Was $800.00 and did a good job So competition is good . Its unfortunate you don't have it

 

[Soulshine]

I don’t thinks it’s appropriate to name the 1st guy. I did meet with him just now and it was a pleasant conversation that included an apology and a tentative plan to go forward. I’m not the first person to be shell shocked and won’t be the last according to him and I believe it.

As far as the quotes go the local guy quoted me $6000 for a direct replacement with existing framework. I figured the design was established and a build strategy in place from the initial fabrication.

The second quote came in this morning at $8200 plus the $500 in fuel I’d burn getting back and forth. So $2700 more. In fairness this included Strataglass, but I can’t justify the difference.

We’re it not for the very different tone of today’s meeting I’d be less inclined to go with the local guy. We talked about it in a friendly but frank manner, got both of our opinions out in the open, had a few laughs and shook hands smiling.

There’s only so much water in the well here so I’ll have to ruminate over this for a week before I commit.

 

[b_arrington]

I would not give business to the 1st guy. Even if he comes through, it seems like too much trouble for someone that doesn't seem to want your business. I'm with Henry - I don't want to deal with drama.

I'm a bit surprised a serious canvas maker won't travel 40 miles to a boat. It seems like the travel would not be too bad. Send him some photos for a ballpark. He comes out to confirm and make templates. Fabricates and then installs. Seems like 2 trips, maybe 3 if he has to fabricate a frame then do templates. My canvas guy will go all over Long Island. Heck, he LIVES 50 miles from his shop!

That said, I'm very happy with how my canvas guy operates. I've used him on several projects both major and minor. He comes when he says (sometimes it takes a while to schedule him), does the work, and installs it on time. He even tosses in some freebees for me - like adhesive snaps for a totally unrelated project. Some examples: He made me a back seat cover in 3 days; $400. I needed my drop canvas modified and a zipper added to a big window; 3 days and $120. Same day I gave him my inlaw's fastback for a window replacement; also 3 days and $100. The big project was a new camper canvas and replacement bimini / windows. That one was about $5000.

 

[Dabble]

Great Lakes had the template for my ‘97 330DA. Did you check them out?

 

[Stee6043]

Well if you go with the first guy I hope you don't have to make any changes or request any corrections once he's complete. I can only imagine how he gets when customers aren't pleased with his work.

Make sure you don't pay in full until you're 100% pleased with the install!

 

[CaptRonn]

I would not give business to the 1st guy. Even if he comes through, it seems like too much trouble for someone that doesn't seem to want your business. I'm with Henry - I don't want to deal with drama.

I'm a bit surprised a serious canvas maker won't travel 40 miles to a boat. It seems like the travel would not be too bad. Send him some photos for a ballpark. He comes out to confirm and make templates. Fabricates and then installs. Seems like 2 trips, maybe 3 if he has to fabricate a frame then do templates. My canvas guy will go all over Long Island. Heck, he LIVES 50 miles from his shop!

That said, I'm very happy with how my canvas guy operates. I've used him on several projects both major and minor. He comes when he says (sometimes it takes a while to schedule him), does the work, and installs it on time. He even tosses in some freebees for me - like adhesive snaps for a totally unrelated project. Some examples: He made me a back seat cover in 3 days; $400. I needed my drop canvas modified and a zipper added to a big window; 3 days and $120. Same day I gave him my inlaw's fastback for a window replacement; also 3 days and $100. The big project was a new camper canvas and replacement bimini / windows. That one was about $5000.

To do a great job on canvas fitting, sometimes it takes multiple trips to the boat to measure, install, trim, adjust, final fit, etc.

Having a boat 40 miles away involves 80 miles of travel, and depending on roads that's 1+30 to 2 hours of time. Even 3 trips can add up to 9 hours on the job just in travel.

For the best job if he has the boat close, it's quicker and a better product.

 

[Gofirstclass]

I shopped around and met a guy on the north end of the lake that I really liked. The work is actually better but this would require a 40 mile trip north to have the work done and then a return trip. No big deal and would be fun with a friend along.

I would be very leery of doing business with the first guy. If you have a problem with the materials or how he sewed it or whatever, is he again going to be a prick?

IMHO 40 miles is nothing. I traveled 250 miles down the Columbia and back, passing through 4 dams each way to get to Portland to have a canvas shop there do the work. OH, and when I dropped the boat off then went back to pick it up it required a rental car each time.

He's good, he's reasonably fast, he does what he says he is going to do and he does it for the price he quites. OH, and he was less expensive than the local guy even when factoring in the fuel costs and travel costs. His total bill was $8,000 and I felt it was worth it.

 

[Woody]

My comment is not canvas specific....while looking for people for a variety of boat services, diesel, mechanical, waxing, and canvas, it's been the norm to encounter attitude, and services detached from pricing. I'm near having enough of their BS, getting pushed toward my limit even faster by much of their pricing. I'm left feeling used and abused some days.

If you see somebody leaping out the broken window at a West Marine, arms full of loot.....well, that might be me protesting.

BLM.........Boaters Lives Matter

 

[Golfman25]

I am all about giving service guys a second chance. You didn't say no, just was beyond the budget. Who knows who pissed in his Cheerios that day. If he's made amends, and has done good work in the past, go for it.

But yeah, service guys generally suck these days.

 

[Soulshine]

To do a great job on canvas fitting, sometimes it takes multiple trips to the boat to measure, install, trim, adjust, final fit, etc.

Having a boat 40 miles away involves 80 miles of travel, and depending on roads that's 1+30 to 2 hours of time. Even 3 trips can add up to 9 hours on the job just in travel.

For the best job if he has the boat close, it's quicker and a better product.

The 40 miles is my travel on the water each way. In doing so I put the boat at a marina nearby to him.

My conversation with the local guy was surprisingly productive. We’d always been friendly and I have to chalk it up to us having a bad moment.

I was glad to clear the air and settle things since we see each other almost daily in the summer.

Thanks for the opinions and advice folks. Business transactions are rarely as simple as they should be.

 

[Soulshine]

I am all about giving service guys a second chance. You didn't say no, just was beyond the budget. Who knows who pissed in his Cheerios that day. If he's made amends, and has done good work in the past, go for it.

That’s the way I feel about it myself. We both made amends. I don’t think anything is ever only one person’s fault, so I look for what I could have done differently.

We’ll see how it shakes out.