Choices: 460DA vs 480DB

Jaws

Jaws

Active Member
GOLD Sponsor
Nov 13, 2007
859
Sarnia, Ontario
Boat Info
460 Sundancer 2002
Engines
Cummins 8.3 6CTA
Hi guys,

I have been following the CSR threads with interest over the past few months but I finally decided to register because I am looking for advice. We recently sold our 365 Four Winns and will finally move to a Sea Ray. The 460DA has always been a favourite and we have it narrowed from a dozen examples (Cummins, Cat 3208, & Volvos) down to either an '01 or '02 in the Great Lakes. Both have hard tops and Cummins 6CTA motors.

But wait...we saw a 480 sedan bridge and soon realized that for the same money we would move back a year and get a three stateroom condo with good performance. We started concentrating on '00 and '01 models and really loved this boat.
Now the crunch...they are all equipped with the 3196 Caterpillar engine (I also belong to BoatDiesel) and that appears to affect the value, to a point. (The 480 with QSM-11 is out of my price range.)

We are active boaters during our abbreviated season and annually will take one 500 to 1000 Nm voyage plus weekends of anchoring in Georgian Bay. Diesel service is a bit harder to obtain around here so I really need dependable motors.

Either boat would suit our needs well. We come from an express cruiser background so the DA would be great but the DB is gorgeous as well. However I'm hung up on the 3196 motor issue and each example that I phone Cat for a background check seems to have a long list of warranty work and "upgrades".

Thank you for any advice, guidance, or opinions.

James
 
James-

I spent a lot of time searching for an '01 480DB before deciding to increase my budget and go with the Cummins motors. The 3196 seems to be a blight on an otherwise exemplary record for Cat. That said, there are a lot of happy 3196 owners out there. I think all of the issues encountered with that motor are exacerbated by salt water use. If your intent is fresh water only....
For my $$, the 3196 was too much gamble. At the time we purchased, we were stretching a bit to get into the boat and a large repair bill would have been quite a hurdle for us. The QSM's have been great engines, easily the best diesels I have ever owned.
Good luck with your decision. Both are great boats.
 
James -

Not to complicate your life, but ...

You may want to also check out a 450EB - a great blend of DA and DB features. Those made 1998 through mid-2002 have three staterooms, and you can find many examples that are equipped with Cummins 6CTA's.

Good luck in your search!

- Scott
 
James, There have been a number of posts discussing these engines...try a search for "3196". I got quite a few hits, with lots of Dr. Webster's thoughts and advice.

Best of luck!
Jeff
 
Cat 3196 engines are great engines from a design standpoint, but there is no escaping the fact that Cat had a number of vendor spuulied component problems on this one. So many involving so much money that there is no a class action suit pending againt the company.

Unfortunately, the problems one may encounter with the 3196 are not just parts upgrading issues. Valves with improper metallurgy were used and several after cooler designs were prone to failure. The valve heads broke off and fell into the engine while it was running when they failed. The aftercooler allowed the engine to ingest salt water while running. Both of these events were catestrophic to the engine and almost always required a complete rebuild or engine replacement.

I'm not sure how universal or what the risk of getting a problem 3196 is. We've gat a marina full of them where I keep my boat and all are great dependable engines. There was one 480DB owner and one 540DA owner that did have problems. The 480 guy, had 2 turbos fail.....not serious, just a real mess to clean the soot out of the engine room and 2 sets of aftercoolers replaced followed by Caterpillar repowering his boat with new 3196's. He's got several thousand hours on the new engines now and loves them. his old engines were sold to a charter boat ooerator and hes had many years and many thousands of hours service, but they run the engines in a work class mode at reduced rpms.

If I were interested in a 3196 powered boat, I wouldn't even consider buying one without a ful mechanical survey done by a Caterpillar servicing dealer who is familair with the after cooler designs and types.

But, honestly, at this point in time, I don't know how risky buyiong a 3196 really would be. The problems occurred so long ago that unless you find a dock queen some where I would think the engine problems would have occurred some time in the past.

ALso, be careful of VOlvo powered 460's.......most were made for export and it is a rare bird in North America, so parts and service may be difficult to find. The 3208 powered boat is also rare and has engines that were discontinued because they were not efficient and could not meet enviornmental standards. The 3208's were bullet proof and are great engines but have also been out of production for a number of years. caterpillar is great about supporting their products from a parts and service standpoint and you won't ever hear, "sorry part is no longer available". You may get a nose bleed when you see the cost ofsome obscure marine part in the future, however. I'd choose a 460DA with Cummins C's if I were in the market for a 460.
 
Well here's my 2 cents worth on the 3196. In August we purchased a 2001 510 with this engine. We had the servicing Catepillar Dealer do complete survey on the engines, and they came through with flying colors. All upgrades on the Turbos and Aftercoolers were done in 2003. The upgrades were done proactively by Catepillar, not do to a complaint. The boat now lives in fresh water. From a performance standpoint these engines are awesome. She cruises effortlessly at 24k. On Her first trip to the new Home slip we crossed the lake with winds gusting to 25mph. The big torque crushed the waves and we maintained 24kts at 1900 rpm. We also sea trialed a couple of 460DAs with the Cummins engines while we were shopping. The 460s are great boats with outstanding performance. The big difference I saw was in low speed handling. The cats have tremendous torque at low rpm, the boat goes where you tell it to go right now. Spinning Her and docking in breeze is no big deal. The 460s felt like my 400DA gasser at low speed. The cats can handle much bigger props. No smoke, temps 180-190 at cruise, oil 50psi, 200hrs. My belief is that some owners abuse these engines. For example, while sea trialing the PO ran the with the engines firewalled the whole time. I finally told him this was not necessary and wasn't recommened by Cat.
 
"On Her first trip to the new Home slip we crossed the lake with winds gusting to 25mph. The big torque crushed the waves and we maintained 24kts at 1900 rpm."

Now thats what I like to hear. Sounds like the 510 is a great choice!
 
Thank you to everyone for your input. It's great getting advice from so many knowledgable boaters and that will help with my decision.

Matt,...I'm facing the same dilemma as you did but I don't think I want to extend myself for the QSM's. I would have to move up maybe two years and $100K. I mentioned this to the dealer (who happens to hold both the '01 480 and '02 460) and he suggested that I buy his 460 (Cummins) and on the next trade we'll get up to a QSM equipped 480 (I won't say anything about commissions because he might read this but I feel confident that he wants to nurture a long term boating association with the dealership.) Interestingly the negotiated numbers are almost the same on both his current boats.

Scott,...yes we looked at a two stateroom 450EB and it's a great middle ground. We'll consider it.

Frank,...thanks very much for that background and I know you are the expert on Cat motors. If we put our offer on the 480 I would get Caterpillar to fully check and service those 3196's and to be honest I feel quite a bit better about those engines now (especially with Elreyos' notes). I am finding out that the durability of the motor is partly maintenance, partly how you run it (i.e. do you keep it at 90% W.O.T.? or less?), and partly good fortune on the components. The 480 we are looking at has around 600 hrs. ('01) We also viewed one with only 182 hrs ('99 model) but most had under 1000 hrs. So I know they need extensive scrutiny. One advantage is that all are freshwater boats however they don't get a lot of hours.

Our search for 460's turned up 8 or 9 Cummins 6CTA equipped boats, three 3208's (seems that one S.R. dealer on Lake Michigan regularly ordered their 460's that way), and a couple of Volvo 480 hp. I agree that Volvo service would be tougher to find but maybe with all the IPS systems sold now, that may change in the future.

Thanks again everyone and please keep the thoughts coming. I will post the result of my quest in the coming weeks as I hope to sew up a deal around month's end.

James
 
James-

You say in your original post that either the DA or DB would suit you well... can you expand on that a bit? There is often vigorous debate here about the relative advantages of 'dancers versus bridge boats with a high degree of passion, enthusiasm and knowledge on both sides.

As you know, these types of boats are very different (not as different and some may have you believe though).

Tim
 
James - I remember the ache I had when I was in your position. I, too, was considering the 460DA. After careful consideration, we realized that we really preferred the 480DB for our intended use. I spent weeks looking at '01 480DB's with 3196 Cats. Each boat (47 of them we looked at) would have maintenance records..... and, though, not all were horror stories (especially the fresh water boats), there were a lot of concerning entries. After several months of consideration and an unbelievable amount of time on boatdiesel.com, I woke up one morning and knew that I did not want to assume the risk. When you boil it down, it is risk. How much is a matter of opinion, but it was more than I wanted to assume for such a large purchase. I think you expressed that as the 'good fortune' part. It helped that I found an '03 w/ Cummins for a stellar deal that same week. It's a buyers market right now. You might be able to negotiate better than you think.

As for the broker suggesting the step up approach, I wouldn't question his integrity at all. He is just trying to get you into what you want now and in the future. Keep in mind, though, that you never make money trading boats. If you know what you want right now, it will be cheaper in the long run to do it now.
 
James,

I could have written your posts for you! I'm "in the same boat" and have nearly identical concerns and questions.

I would have thought that looking at both 460DA's and 480DB's would be rare - the boats have so little in common, but I guess that what happens to SeaRay fans.

The Volvo and 3196 issues leave me scratching my head. Perception is often reality (or creates it), and SeaRay owners and buyers DO shy away from Volvo powered boats. I've watched a few examples closely, and I saw that with other factors being equal, a Swede-powered 460 will sit on the market longer and/or go for a lower price than a Cummins-powered one.

That would make sense if: Volvo engines had a reputation for being unreliable. (they don't) or they were under-powered (they're not). What's even more puzzling is that Swede-aphobia seems to be unique to SeaRay people. I have friends/neighbors with Carvers and Cruisers who went out of their way to get Volvo power, and they don't regret it.

I'm familiar with one of the Volvo 460's currently on the market. It's stellar - kept inside YEAR ROUND. It's nicely equipped and well-priced, but I won't be surprised to see it still on the brokerage sites a year from now.

As you mentioned, I wonder if some of the Volvo service & parts situation will change as IPS becomes more and more popular.

As for the 3196's, if they were under warranty, I probably wouldn't give it a second thought. I saw PILES of 3116's and 3126's go bad back in the day, yet the boat owners were still loyal to Cat. Things haven't gone so well with the 3196 though, and again, even if you find a set capable of 4,000 hours of solid service, what will that perception do to resale?

I boarded one of the 3208 versions that's on the market now in Lake Michigan. It was docked next to us on Mackinac Island. It wasn't for sale at the time, so the owners satisfaction with his engines seemed believable. He echoed what I've always heard about 3208's: reliable and powerful, but a little thirsty.
 
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James, are you trading a boat?

If not, you should be buying the boat you want. With this market you should be in the driver seat. "Cummins" should not be out of reach if thats what you want.Boats with cummins owners need or want to sell there boats too. How ever if you are limiting yourself to a particular dealer than this wont apply as they are holding prices for the moment(you should still be able to work it). There are a lot of boats out there. When i'm ready I will buy either a boat with 3196 or 3406 but I dont intend on paying anymore more the 800 hp. The listings and discussions with brokers on these boats demonstrate this.

Get the boat you want with the motors you want!
 
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I've been surprised by how quickly some boats move on the market, even in Michigan (currently the worst economy in the country?).

A 280 might sit for a year, but $450,000-and-higher boats might sell before the dealers webmaster can even complete the online listing.
 
I'm not surprised. Who's buying the 280 and who's buying the 450+k boat. If your looking for surprise come to my marina and look at all the 800+k yachts that are being sold.
 
I believe it! The kicker though, is that things in Michigan are bad from the bottom to, and including, the top. Want a $1.8 Mil house for $1 Mil? Take your pick, but don't wait too long to lay a deposit down on a big SeaRay.
 
JAWS

I would suggest you pilot some of these boats to hear, and feel the diffences. I know some dealers want a deposit before sea trial, but the really good ones will offer a road test before talking money. Especially because you are at looking to very different layouts (DA vs DB). In my experience MM was very good about a "road test" before deposit. They did this on brokered boats as well preowned. The ownwer of a brokered boat shouldn't mind. It excercises the boat and it might sell. Heck they even allowed us to take a 550DA out for a spin, and we would have bought the thing but the price was more than we could handle. I think you'll find it very educational. Make em work for your money.
 
If you do go and look at 480 DB's with the QSM-11's, there is a deep dark secret you need to know about. There are two connectors under the helm that the Cummins tech can hook a computer to and download all of the historical data from when the engines were running for some ridiculous amount of time (like the last 10,000 hours). This includes all the data from the sensors vs. hours so you can see the complete history of how the engines were run by hour and what the sensors where reading.... Like if someone was firewalling the engines all the time, had a manifold gasket go bad, a turbo go bad, etc... How's that for creepy...

Just an FYI... The electronics are probably violating some privacy thing but who cares.
 
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There's a less involved way to get a quick estimation of the running history. The electronics include a 'total fuel burned' along with the hours. A quick division there will tell you the average GPH and you can derive a lot from that. Of course, Gary is right about a boat you get serious about, get the history off of the CPU.
 
prodigalson said:
James-

You say in your original post that either the DA or DB would suit you well... can you expand on that a bit? There is often vigorous debate here about the relative advantages of 'dancers versus bridge boats with a high degree of passion, enthusiasm and knowledge on both sides.

As you know, these types of boats are very different (not as different and some may have you believe though).

Tim
Click to expand...
Tim,

I don't mean to stir up the old controversy of express vs. flybridge but,...that is part of the dilemma. We have always had express boats and then looked at 420DA, Regal 4260, Cruisers, and a few Tiaras among others. We decided that the 460 would be our choice. Cruising speed was a couple of knots less than we were used to but we really liked the space on the 460.

Friends that we boat with, familiar with our search, threw in another parameter, "why don't you look at bridge boats", so we did. The 480 was a desirable boat from all perspectives save the 3196 concern. So that's where we are at. Do we want the sleekness, low profile, easier winter storage by the marina, and general efficiency of the 460, or do we want the vast living space, great dock handling, greater speed of the 480. Operating annual cost...the Sundancer would win; but boating is not always logical.

James
 
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