Electronics Upgrade Question- Seatalk1/2/ng

[SubCOB]

I’m starting to upgrade my electronics- doing it in phases so I don’t break the bank.
I have removed the SeaRay Navigator and an Axiom RV is going in its place along with a B60 transducer connected directly to the Axiom for depth. The rest of the existing equipment includes:
E120 Classic
Analog open array radar
Ray230 vhf
ST7001 and S2G autopilot
Eventually I’ll replace the radar and connect it to the Axiom, then I’ll replace the E120.

So I’ve been doing research and I thought I had a plan on how to hook everything up but I think I hit a snag. My plan was to connect the E120, A/P controller and computer, and ray230 on a single seatalk1 bus and then connect that to a seatalk-seatalk ng converter which would interface the axiom to provide heading input to the axiom. But I just read that you can’t connect a seatalk A/P to the converter? Does that make sense?

 

[ocgrant]

I’m starting to upgrade my electronics- doing it in phases so I don’t break the bank.
I have removed the SeaRay Navigator and an Axiom RV is going in its place along with a B60 transducer connected directly to the Axiom for depth. The rest of the existing equipment includes:
E120 Classic
Analog open array radar
Ray230 vhf
ST7001 and S2G autopilot
Eventually I’ll replace the radar and connect it to the Axiom, then I’ll replace the E120.

So I’ve been doing research and I thought I had a plan on how to hook everything up but I think I hit a snag. My plan was to connect the E120, A/P controller and computer, and ray230 on a single seatalk1 bus and then connect that to a seatalk-seatalk ng converter which would interface the axiom to provide heading input to the axiom. But I just read that you can’t connect a seatalk A/P to the converter? Does that make sense?

I am prettry sure you are correct. Call Raymarine tech support they have been very helpfull to me over the past year of doing upgrades also.

 

[Henry Boyd]

I’m starting to upgrade my electronics- doing it in phases so I don’t break the bank.
I have removed the SeaRay Navigator and an Axiom RV is going in its place along with a B60 transducer connected directly to the Axiom for depth. The rest of the existing equipment includes:
E120 Classic
Analog open array radar
Ray230 vhf
ST7001 and S2G autopilot
Eventually I’ll replace the radar and connect it to the Axiom, then I’ll replace the E120.

So I’ve been doing research and I thought I had a plan on how to hook everything up but I think I hit a snag. My plan was to connect the E120, A/P controller and computer, and ray230 on a single seatalk1 bus and then connect that to a seatalk-seatalk ng converter which would interface the axiom to provide heading input to the axiom. But I just read that you can’t connect a seatalk A/P to the converter? Does that make sense?

I’m also in the midst of a Raymarine upgrade and I would add another good source is the Raymarine support forum on RM’s website. It’s less of a forum and more of a written CS session. You pose questions such as your post above and in a day or two RM responds. They have an extensive library of questions and answers and your questions may have already been asked. They do ask that posts be on a single topic where possible, AP related questions, networking questions, etc.

From your post I can’t answer your question other to say there is a very good post on Axiom and older AP compatibility. I have a S3G that is sort off compatible, but noticed from the RM Forum thread on the topic a number of the same generation APs are not.

Likewise, the STNG converters are limited in scope being only able to “convert” single devices, basically SeaTalk gps units. Raymarine’s networking architect/protocol/policy whatever is pure crap; seatalk, seatalkNG, nmea0183, and SeatalkHS. They’ve tried to come into the future, but they’ve kept compatibility with the past and now have a confusing POS. My AP has a special junction box that takes in data from all sources, STNG, ST, STHS, and nmea0183 and outputs to a devicenet cable that plugs into the boat’s CANBuss. The very definition of Rube Goldberg.

 

[SubCOB]

Thanks for the responses. Did some more research and it looks like what I want to do will work.
New problem- loss of GPS to the E120. The GPS was connected to the SR navigator black box. I did a test this morning and reconnected just the black box, plugged the GPS into that, and reconnected the autopilot to the black box. That gave me GPS back to the E120 so I’m guessing the signal goes via NMEA 0183. Any thoughts on how to bypass the SR navigator black box? The wires in the gps connector are black, blue, and bare. Can I connect this directly to the spare NMEA port on the autopilot?

 

[dtfeld]

I think the GPS position from the Axiom will pass through the converter. I have a similar setup and I get position to my AP type 300 and on to my VFH via Seatalk 1/NEMA0183.

 

[Third Edition]

I upgraded ST1 to STNG to N2K. All my legacy systems work fine. Upgraded to Raymarine MFDs running Lighthouse II. I did not do the upgrade from Lighthouse II to Lighthouse III because the manual said I would lose MFD control of the AutoPilot. My next task is to get the engine gateway to N2K to MFD. Next two weeks!

 

[Henry Boyd]

I upgraded ST1 to STNG to N2K. All my legacy systems work fine. Upgraded to Raymarine MFDs running Lighthouse II. I did not do the upgrade from Lighthouse II to Lighthouse III because the manual said I would lose MFD control of the AutoPilot. My next task is to get the engine gateway to N2K to MFD. Next two weeks!

Did you do the seatalk to STNG using one converter per device? On the n2k are you planning to set the engines to Smartcraft and then attach one of the SmartCraft n2k devices?

 

[Third Edition]

I used one ST1 to STNG converter. Got an extra ST1 junction block, plugged one ST1 cable into that, and connected it to to the existing ST1 network and the STNG converter. Then connected a STNG to N2K cable to/from the STNG converter to the N2K network. That is all working fine. The MFDs can see all the ST1 data.

I am getting the Yacht Devices YDEG-04 connector and associated cables.

 

[ttmott]

Thanks for the responses. Did some more research and it looks like what I want to do will work.
New problem- loss of GPS to the E120. The GPS was connected to the SR navigator black box. I did a test this morning and reconnected just the black box, plugged the GPS into that, and reconnected the autopilot to the black box. That gave me GPS back to the E120 so I’m guessing the signal goes via NMEA 0183. Any thoughts on how to bypass the SR navigator black box? The wires in the gps connector are black, blue, and bare. Can I connect this directly to the spare NMEA port on the autopilot?

If your boat had a single Navigator with a single Raymarine E120 then there should have been two GPS receivers; one for the SR Navigator system and one for the Raymarine equipment. The Navigator GPS is NMEA0183 and the Raymarine is either NMEA0183 or Seatalk1. I would recommend to use neither and get a new NG/NMEA2000 compliant GPS receiver and be done with it.

 

[dtfeld]

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I have been updating from a 2001 era Raymarine package to a new Axiom based one. I use the internal GPS from the Axiom, but I get lousy reception where it’s installed at the helm.

I started looking to add a RS150 GPS , but for a little bit more, I can add the AR200 augmented reality sensor. According to RM tech, the AR200 is essentially a RS150 GPS with the AR functions added in. Cost differential is $150.

to get the AR functionality, a camera will need to be added.

 

[Henry Boyd]

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^

I have been updating from a 2001 era Raymarine package to a new Axiom based one. I use the internal GPS from the Axiom, but I get lousy reception where it’s installed at the helm.

I started looking to add a RS150 GPS , but for a little bit more, I can add the AR200 augmented reality sensor. According to RM tech, the AR200 is essentially a RS150 GPS with the AR functions added in. Cost differential is $150.

to get the AR functionality, a camera will need to be added.

I got the RS150 for no charge with the stuff I just bought, 2 Axiom pro 12s and DBW autopilot for Volvo IPS. I’ve known the dealer for years and he is the last person on the planet to give anything away, so I’m sure RM is providing them. So maybe some pushback might help. BTW, the Garmin unit I installed for engine gauges does not have any gps issues. If you aren’t ties to RM, it might be worth considering.

 

[Third Edition]

Both my e-series MFDs have built-in GPS and both work fine. As does the GPS in the new DSC vhf radio. Perhaps the Axiom you got has a bad GPS.

 

[Henry Boyd]

Both my e-series MFDs have built-in GPS and both work fine. As does the GPS in the new DSC vhf radio. Perhaps the Axiom you got has a bad GPS.

I started planning an electronics upgrade last spring after we bought the new boat, even then I was told that the Axiom Pro had issues with potentially poor gps reception and that RM was supplying external gps devices as a warranty solution. I was told the issue showed up on installations where the display was flush mounted into the helm. At the time it wasn’t (and still isn’t) an issue because the existing external gps is working. That said, I do intend to have the freebie installed.

 

[dtfeld]

Both my e-series MFDs have built-in GPS and both work fine. As does the GPS in the new DSC vhf radio. Perhaps the Axiom you got has a bad GPS.

Possible, but I think it works fine, just not where I’ve located it and I’m in a covered slip. What is around it (fiberglass, other electronics) does affect the internal GPS. It takes a while once I leave the slip for it to settle down. I think an external will help with the cold booting being slow and erratic. Been talking to RM tech support about it. We’ll see.

I’ve been pretty happy with the new Axiom setup, but it does only like to play with the new generation accessories. The Doppler Radar is the best part for situational awareness. I was going to add the RS150 to elimate that as an issue, but I think I’ll go with the AR200 for future expand ability.

I have to update the AP at some point as there is a lack of integration between the old NEMA0183 stuff and the new generation. It all works for heading hold and following short routes, just isn’t controllable from the MFD.

 

[Henry Boyd]

I decided to do the autopilot for both the reasons you mentioned, although in our case there is a third factor to consider. Both the existing AP and upgrade plug directly into the Volvo electronics. The engines,throttles, pods and steering are all controlled by the Volvo EVC system, their version of Smartcraft. It is a true fly by wire, although RM prefers Drive By Wire. I wanted to ensure the navigational commands would travel to the maneuvering system with the fewest possible glitches.

On the GPS thing you might press RM to comp you the gps under warranty because it sounds like it does not function properly. We don’t have covered slips up here so I have no feel for whether it’s normal to have slow sat acquisition on start up. If it’s not push for a rs150 gratis.

 

[SubCOB]

Both my e-series MFDs have built-in GPS and both work fine. As does the GPS in the new DSC vhf radio. Perhaps the Axiom you got has a bad GPS.

The internal GPS in the Axiom works great. My problem is that I lost GPS at the E120 when I disconnected the Sea Ray Navigator

 

[Third Edition]

Do you have the Axiom connected to your legacy SeaTalk network?

 

[ttmott]

I decided to do the autopilot for both the reasons you mentioned, although in our case there is a third factor to consider. Both the existing AP and upgrade plug directly into the Volvo electronics. The engines,throttles, pods and steering are all controlled by the Volvo EVC system, their version of Smartcraft. It is a true fly by wire, although RM prefers Drive By Wire. I wanted to ensure the navigational commands would travel to the maneuvering system with the fewest possible glitches.

On the GPS thing you might press RM to comp you the gps under warranty because it sounds like it does not function properly. We don’t have covered slips up here so I have no feel for whether it’s normal to have slow sat acquisition on start up. If it’s not push for a rs150 gratis.

I don't think it's just a Ray GPS thing; my Garmin 8616's receive fewer satellites with their integrated GPS than the separate receiver on the bridge roof. Plus with one on the roof and also integrated you have a great redundancy on this critical feature.

 

[SubCOB]

It’s not connected yet- I wanted to make sure the legacy stuff worked after I pulled out the Navigator. This is how I plan on hooking it up:

 

[Henry Boyd]

It’s not connected yet- I wanted to make sure the legacy stuff worked after I pulled out the Navigator. This is how I plan on hooking it up:View attachment 80863

I don’t get the device net cable. STNG from converter should go directly into axiom with a STNG white black spur cable.

I think the best place for you to post your diagram is on the Raymarine support forum at Raymarine.com. They also have a very good FAQ covering compatibility of legacy autopilots like your S2G with Axiom. Some work and some don’t. I found the RM forum a big help, although they can be difficult. BTW if you do use the forum, it is less of a forum, and closer to an email exchange between you and rm customer service with non participating cc parties listening in.