getting access to enclosed compartment in cabin 2006 sundancer 240

A

aerobat77

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Aug 12, 2014
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germany
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hey gents !

i want to take a look to my hull ( verify no trapped water) in the cabin area, especially to the enclosed box between the vee berth where the cabin table mount is attached - but how ?

the only way seems to be removing the table mount . i carefully removed the carpet in this area and found out this mount is not screwed ( like the table mount for the cockpit table e.g ) but glued into the "box" between the vee berths.

how hard is it to remove the glued mount and after inspection reseal ? another idea would be to drill a hole into this ( aluminium ? ) mount and later close it again with a plastic plug . searay does not offer any inspection hatches to this area.

i would like your opinions before i overlook something or make a stupid drill.

thank you very much !
 
DaveOB said:
Curiosity is killing me....why do you need to do this?
Click to expand...

because a boat is like a wife , so i want to know every hidden secret of her , i want to have a visual and drill in every hole of her .

seriously : look for trapped water lower hull since i from time to time fight a wet carpet entry step. its not the shower pump , somehow water pushes from below .

i managed to look into it by removing the table mount. its fully filled with foam but after drilling holes ( we germans like it :) ) thru this foam to the bottom this area is bone dry.
 
Yes, that area is completely closed off. It's meant to be that way to help avoid possible sinking. If there is now a hole in that area, and you would happen to have a hull breach under that area, water will not only fill that compartment, but would continue to fill the boat. There's other areas that are done the same way. It's best to leave those area alone.

Where is the water accumulating? Are you talking about the actual carpeted step (with the access lid) or the the carpeted floor?

Verify where it shows up FIRST. Meaning, port side/starboard side, etc. The water will drain through the carpet and dry relatively quickly, so some ingenuity (paper towels, for example, in key areas) can show a "trail".

Does it happen after rain, or from simply sitting in the water?

Are you losing fresh water from your tank (in your model year, the tank is under the V-berth, right?)?

Does it happen after a shower?
 
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hey dennis , thanks for kicking here in.

i,m chasing the problem since last season and nailed it down to be water from below the lowest step in the cabin ( carpeted ) pushing up , finding its way to soak the carpet and find its way into the fwd bilge where the shower pump sits.

its NOT a failed showerpump which overflows the box and soak the carpet.

its also not a crack in the hull since the boat is permanently in the water and on shiny days it dries out again.

yes i had a little leaky watertank which i fixed last year , now it holds and i thought until yesterday problem solved.

after days of heavy rain where i know my canvas is not perfektly tight i found some water in the showerpump area but the carpet was dry. the watertank was full and i started to look if it us still full ( you can see it removing the front table and look at the plastic tank ) it was still full. sitting in the cabin with my girlfriend and thinking about it the carpet on the lowest step started to became wet..,

this without using the shower / sink and with the boat moored to the dock.

that opened my eyes : with full watertank in the front , pretty empty fuel tank and both in the cabin we made the boat nose heavy and bilge water started to stream upfront up to the top of the false floor of the lowest point in the cabin. the cabin floir and the floir of the showerpump are must be false floors since they are flat and the hull is a vee.

the big question : is the are between the hull vee and the flat floor connected to the aft bilge ? ( so tilting boat aft will let it drain to the aft bilge )

how do i remove the water from this area ????
 
one more thing for confirmation : the water starts to soak first the lowest point of the cabin floor pushing from below this floor. not the carpeted entry steps itself.
 
Leaks can sometimes be a real pain in the butt to figure out. Partly, because water can come in one place, but show up another.

Yes, there is space below the floor of the cabin, but I've never been in there to say how much cross bracing (bulkheads) there is - I suspect two. However, there is another obvious one directly under the cabin door that separates the bilge from the cabin. The cabin is supposed to be entirely sealed from the engine room so as not to allow gas fumes (and bilge water) forward. I hear what you're saying about sitting in the cabin and seeing the floor starting to get wet. However, I can't see how bilge water would do this - to start with, there would have to be A LOT of bilge water as it would have to completely fill that sump area before it got to the floor.

The place I would start looking at is a leaking head window. Once you understand how the head is built, it starts to make more sense. The head is a separate unit from the both the hull and the deck. This means, while the outboard side of the head (starboard wall) appears to be the outside of the hull, as well, it actually is not. There is space between it and the actual hull. SO... if water leaks in from around the outer seal of the head window, it can travel down between the head and the hull. It will then travel UNDER the head floor and guess where it shows up? Yup - either in the sump area or the floor of the cabin, right by the step. It probably didn't make much sense when I asked this above, but that's why I was curious about whether the water came in on the port or starboard side of the floor.

There was likely still some standing water on the flat surface under the head - and then when the two of you sat in there, it traveled forward and out towards the center. The good thing is (1) It's a relatively easy fix - reseal the window and (2) you can get to the area under the head to see what's going on in about 3 minutes (and even have someone "make it rain" on the window with a hose while you observe). Look at the carpeted, vertical wall under the head door (where you would stub your toes if you didn't step up enough). That carpeted trim panel is simply held on with screws. The heads are buried in the carpet to hide them. Feel around (starting in the corners) with your finger and you'll find them.
 
thanks for your great post dennis , especially about the head .

i already waterhosed any cabin window from outside and they are tight , but i cannot say if the entire head is tight and what can be said is the fact we both prefer to take a shower on our own boat instead the marina - so we shower in this head often.

its a "wet" story and when the head leaks to the hull by showering it might be water accumulated below cabin floor after time...

whatever it is : how the f...ck do i remove this water below the cabin , fwd bilge floor ????
 
I very much doubt that it's actually going "below" the floor of the cabin. That would be extremely rare. I would start by pulling that carpeted access panel I mentioned - it gives you a pretty good view of what's going on below the head floor, along with the head drain. Then, spray the head floor and look for a leak. It could be from around the actual drain, or it could be the fitting/hose, itself. One other possibility is the drain/hose for that step-down area in the cockpit. I "think" you can at least see this a bit when removing the carpeted access panel - although a snake camera will likely help quite a lot. Or at least putting your cell phone on a stick and use video.
 
hm... then i do not get it how the boat is costructed...

when the head leaks - what prevents the water to flow to the real lowest point which is the hull vee - and so below the false floor of the lowest point in cabin ?

is the triangle between the vee and the flat floor completelely sealed ?

i will for sure take a close look at the space below the head removing the bottom in the head locker - i actually did it last year and found nothing , but you cannot see much when i remember. this time i will take more care.

fact is water seems to push from below the cabin floor when boat is tilted forward and i struggle to understand why and where this water is.

i want this water pump out and have no idea how to gez access
 
The "false floor of the lowest point of the cabin" (the floor that you step on)... the area below that is (should be) completely sealed and no water should get down there. That would be done at the time of manufacture by fiberglass. The head sits above this point, so any water that leaks out of the head floor could leak ONTO the cabin floor, but it should not go BELOW the cabin floor. The only other place that leaking water could go is the step-down sump area - but that is sealed from the rest of the cabin floor, as well.

I don't think water is "pushing up". I think it's just travelling laterally. Don't get me wrong, stranger things have happened. But that would be such an extreme case of "out of the ordinary" that it makes more sense to track down the more likely/common avenues, first.

Where, exactly, on the cabin floor do you see water starting to appear? Keep in mind that it could travel/run through the carpet and possibly not be noticeable until it pools somewhere.
 
it pushes on the floor of the cabin PORT side where the fridge is - but not streaming down the sides to the bottom but pushing thru the bottom. it further enters then the fwd bilge . the water in the bilge is only a little.

confused...

please remember : ONLY with a forward tilted boat.
 
i have found also two statements where filling the aft bilge will make water into the fwd bilge - one time a user did it intentionally and one time the fwd bilge alarm went off after he started to making water in the engine compartment via a failed rubrail.

http://clubsearay.com/showthread.php/74403-bilge-layout-2006-or-newer-sundancer-240


http://clubsearay.com/showthread.ph...kend-Bimini-Trip-Report-5-25-11-5-30-11/page5

that would point out that the fwd bilge in reality IS NOT completely sealed when i understand correctly... what do you think ?
 
Port side? OK, well that changes things. It probably would have been good to note that in the beginning! :smt001

So, the first place I would look at then is something with the fridge, but it sounds like you are positive that there is nothing on the vertical section of the carpet under the fridge? Maybe you want to put some paper towels in key areas or feel around when the water starts to appear?

-- How far away from the vertical wall does the water appear?

-- Can you actually observe the water soaking the carpet in real time?

I saw what you are talking about in the first link, but I didn't see anything in the second link. No matter, though, let's go with the assumption that there is a way for water to get from the aft bilge into the cabin. To be honest, this really surprises me. If everything is sealed correctly, it's always been my understanding that this is not possible. So, either I'm wrong (which is certainly a possibility) or some type of seal has ruptured.

How much water is actually in your aft bilge? There must be a lot?

Try this:

1) Put some weight in the back of the boat (let it there for quite a while) so you can get ALL of the water out.
2) Also check the area on the outboard side of the port stringer (the battery area). I believe in your model it is open? How far forward does that "compartment" go? Look in it real good. Are there any drain holes to the area directly under the engine? If so, are they plugged?

Now that you have ALL of the water out, let's put some back in, systematically, and see what happens. Although, before you put any back in, put the weight back to the front and see if any water shows up, now that thee's nothing in the bilge.

1) Let's start with the center, aft bilge (under the engine). Move the weight to the front of the boat and start a hose going in the aft bilge. Make sure it stays in the center and put enough water in as you see fit. Or, fill it back up (before you put weight anywhere) to at least where it was before you evacuated everything.

2) If nothing happens, evacuate ALL the water again and repeat the procedure with that area by the batteries (unless you can positively confirm that that area is totally sealed).


FYI: You may be able to get a little bit of a view of the engine bilge by removing a screw-out panel (hopefully your model has the removable panel) in the middle of the mid-berth floor. You'll see the gas tank - I'm not sure how well you can see around it, though. Make sure to seal this back up real well when all is done.
 
hey dennis ! first , really thank you for chasing the problem with me and giving really good hints !

i tell you what i believe, but that assumes water finds its way from back to forward :

i left my boat with a nearly empty fuel tank but full watertank for 10 days moored to the pier due to work. in this condition the 240 sits even or even slightly tilted front in the water. i know my canvas leaks a little stb side in the vivinity of the cockpit sink and some water finds its way to the AFT bilge. but this bilge is dry ( never had standing water there) .

i assume the water ran forward below the fuel tank below the floor of tge fwd bilge. i found some few water there - but carpet was dry. then entering the cabin resulted in further fwd tilting and resulting pushing against the floor abd wetting the carpet.

yes i saw it real time !
the watter apoears first close to the vertical wall port side and soaks further , but definitly on the horizontal floor.

this assumes

- either intentially or due to lousy finish water can flow from aft to fwd bilge , at least up to the bulkhead where the v berths begin.
-the vee below the floors are not sealed and water can accumulate there
-it happens with a full watertank not due to its water but only the weight of the water in the tank tilting the boat more forward.

what do you think ?

i will try if the water by tilting the boat back will flow out..,
 
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I think it's a possibility that you're on the right track, based on how you're now describing it. Especially with where the water is first showing up. Is your fridge running while it's doing this? If so, do me a favor and the next time you can replicate the issue, just feel the vertical wall under the fridge and make sure nothing is dripping, somehow, from the fridge.

I still think it's important to check the head shower drain - it's possible the water is finding it's way under the cabin floor that way. I would imagine that the space under the cabin floor is probably quite small (I would assume there are at least some partitions in the floor for strength) so it wouldn't take much water to fill it up.

However, I got in touch with one of my Sea Ray contacts for you and explained the situation. I'm going to paste what he told me...

----------------------------------

The forward anchor locker could allow water to travel down under the sub-floor. Resealing the locker area with resin and/or gel coat should resolve. Removal of the floor table base will generally reveal any water issues coming from this area.

Bulkheads do seal the bilge from the cabin, however, leaks in the water system or bilge water can sometimes weep through pin hole openings in the fiberglass finding a way forward. Resealing the sump area in the cabin can help. Also check the shower drain line under the head floor to assure it is not migrating under the floor.

Another possible source are leaks around transom trim tab mounts that may allow water entry into the compartments under the floor. With the bow down it could migrate forward showing up in the cabin. Resealing the tab mounts should resolve.
 
i will be sunday on the boat and will check the head closely for sure , other things like anchor locker also.

i plan to take the boat on holiday for a longer trip in juli and want in any case have this water out - how ?

could you ask your searay contact if its an idea to drill a small hole in the floor of the showerpump so i can suck it out with a pump ? ( and later on plug the hole )

i hate to drill in the floor even knowing it is not the outer hull , i do not know how much space is below this floor.

further - is the subfloor below the showerpump and the subfloor of lowest cabin floor one compartment or is there a bulkhead ?

i want this water there out!

needless to say. great people here on a great forum !
 
I'll send him a note - I probably won't here anything until Monday as it is now late, Friday afternoon.

I would venture a guess that you should be able to get the water out by putting enough weight in the stern to let gravity do it's job and drain it back to the engine bilge (if that's how it got there - still need to confirm that). Probably leave it that way at least overnight. Of course, start by getting the bilge totally dry so you can see what drained back. If nothing drains back, there could be a few reasons... the water went back to the outboard side of the stringer, the water stayed in the cabin because it couldn't go "up" the hull to the outboard side of the stringer, or there isn't the issue and no water traveled forward to begin with.

You can certainly drill a hole, though. Just do it slow - but it's not like you're going to immediately go through the hull bottom. I'm guessing there will be foam there. BUT... a better place would be to drill a hole in that sump area (under the step). Drill the hole horizontally, into the forward bulkhead of the sump area.

Is your sump floor a false bottom or can you see the shape of the hull? IF you can't see the hull shape, you could drill a hole in that floor, as well (save the carpet).
 
hey ! the sump area is flat so also a false floor , i intended to drill there and not the carpeted cabin floor - sorry it was not clear enough. the difference is im planned a vertical drill, not horizontal. i will try to tilt the boat first of course.

please keep us informed !
 
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