Inverter Battery Bank

No. Thought about getting one but decided that I really don’t have a need for it, especially when I started thinking about what it would cost in money and space.
For the way we use the boat: If I want power on the hook or away from the dock I just run the generator. Mine is pretty quiet.
Tough to get an exact number, but so far I have figured that it only burns about a half a gallon an hour with both AC units, fridge, TV, charger, etc. running.

For us, the "need" is silence, although we don't really "need" anything, were already living quite well! Just cant beat a good inverter for silence though.
 
For us, the "need" is silence, although we don't really "need" anything, were already living quite well! Just cant beat a good inverter for silence though.

I can understand that. My genny was bought brand new by the PO in April of 2016. It is not in a sound box. We hear it hum in the cockpit, but really can’t hear it in the cabin over the AC or TV. I use it when we spend the day on the hook. It usually gets turned on when my wife wants to use the microwave or something to make lunch, or if it is unbearably hot and humid. Once I fire it up I turn everything (AC’s etc.) on and leave it all on until we get back to the dock in the evening.
If I frequently spent the night on the hook, or went several days at a time on a mooring then the inverter setup might make sense for me. But for the way we use the boat it really isn’t worth the investment and loss of space.
 
I think the newer generators are much quieter based on what I’ve observed around here. There are several videos online on adding a second muffler to quiet the older versions down.

In speaking with Centek engineering, I gather they thought the existing muffler is under sized. Basically bare minimum for the application. I had them spec a larger 2 stage, but getting it into place may prove a serious challenge.

I’m contenplating pulling the generator over the winter to recondition it...has a good amount of rust. Clean up the rust, put a new muffler in and redo the vibration mounts.
 
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I’ve seen boats with large solar panels and they appear to provide quite a bit of power, one video for a greenline hybrid boat mentioned they were at the boat show for 2 days, not connected to power, and the LI battery was still at 97% even though it was powering their ac circuit, they had bright sunny days and were only running one AC unit, fridge, lights etc. They could be overstating the reality of the situation, but that’s what they said in the report. Is there any feasible location on your boat for solar panel installs, i am guessing no, but just a thought.
 
I’ve seen boats with large solar panels and they appear to provide quite a bit of power, one video for a greenline hybrid boat mentioned they were at the boat show for 2 days, not connected to power, and the LI battery was still at 97% even though it was powering their ac circuit, they had bright sunny days and were only running one AC unit, fridge, lights etc. They could be overstating the reality of the situation, but that’s what they said in the report. Is there any feasible location on your boat for solar panel installs, i am guessing no, but just a thought.
Monocrystalline flexible solar panels provide about 12.5 watts per square foot maximum and cost about $12.75 per ft*2 not installed. Installed cost will vary but I would plan around $50.00 per ft*2 for a small system. Rated performance is with the sun perpendicular to the panel so average for daylight is more like 4 watts per square foot. The bridge roof on my boat, for example, is about 200 square feet with only 60 of that really useable for pre-designed panels (suitable areas not occupied with equipment and not on compound curves). That gives me an average of 240 watts of power for about 12 hours per day of sunlight at an estimated installed cost of around $4500. That's about 17.5 amps at 13.5VDC or just less than 2 amps at 120VAC which, as I see it, not cost effective based upon current cost of other energy sources like diesel and gasoline. My current DC electrical system idles right at 10 amps (a few lights on and other constant current blood suckers) in which the solar panels would simply keep the batteries at full charge. If I lived on the boat and wanted to be energy independent then this would probably be a different story with quite a few unsightly sacrifices and most likely a different boat. But, to your question, there is no realistic means to invert and operate the AC power system with solar panels on the boats like we have.
 
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The benefits over the gas/diesel,option would be the silence, and the reduced maintenance (no need to fill up, no need to do any routine maintenance). The greenline can do it because they built the system from the ground up. They have a 1.8 kW of electric power in daylight conditions and this is used to charge the LI battery. With bright sunny conditions, you can go weeks at a time running AC, fridge, etc (per boat test). can’t just add that to these/our types of boats without the square footage, efficient/small electrical loads/appliances, not to mention the the panel is integrated into the roof with forced air cooling to keep it efficient when warm. Another question, for the person adding the LI battery, how do you keep the LI battery from overheating underload (Reduces battery life, and can cause fires?)? Seems like Tesla had to use a liquid to cool the batteries, GM did the same if I recall, Nissan did not, but the loads are not that high on a leaf. Just curious, I don’t have any knowledge of this other than what I have read about Tesla and other large installations of LI batteries, so maybe this is a non-issue, or the loads aren’t that high, or the batteries themselves have something to take care of this.
 
I think solar and wind are at best augment power generation on a boat. Cut down on how often and long you need to run the generator. On a cruising sailboat, a real consideration. For a lake boat under a covered dock, not necessary. There is a video of how to sew solar panels onto the top of your Bimini or camper top on sailrites website. I’ve never done the calculation on the flexible type they used, but I doubt it’s much output. Certainly enough to keep batteries topped up and extend battery life between charges, but a pretty expensive option.

The lithium battery are certainly one of the best option as far as power density in a small, light package, but they are not without their issues as well. Fire being the biggest threat.

Boeing has serious issues with the 787's Li Ion batteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems) Even a latent manufacturing defect (defects that can not be inspected for or missed in inspections) can cause a thermal runaway condition, and once those things start on fire, you had better have a serious fire suppression system in place. I am not certain about the state of my halon system, and do not wish to live fire test it:). In my mind I would not DIY install that system without some serious thought and professional input on how to handle any fires resulting from the installation of such batteries. Its not a question of if they have a problem, but when and how often. Boeing predicted a battery fire every 10 million flight hours, but in reality it was every 25,000 hours. That might seem like an eternity on a pleasure boat except if the failure happens in the first hour of use.

So for me, given the small amount of power, frequency of use, and intended use, flooded or AGM's are going to be just fine. I'll leave that upgrade to the next owner.
 
I think solar and wind are at best augment power generation on a boat. Cut down on how often and long you need to run the generator. On a cruising sailboat, a real consideration. For a lake boat under a covered dock, not necessary. There is a video of how to sew solar panels onto the top of your Bimini or camper top on sailrites website. I’ve never done the calculation on the flexible type they used, but I doubt it’s much output. Certainly enough to keep batteries topped up and extend battery life between charges, but a pretty expensive option.

The lithium battery are certainly one of the best option as far as power density in a small, light package, but they are not without their issues as well. Fire being the biggest threat.

Boeing has serious issues with the 787's Li Ion batteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_787_Dreamliner_battery_problems) Even a latent manufacturing defect (defects that can not be inspected for or missed in inspections) can cause a thermal runaway condition, and once those things start on fire, you had better have a serious fire suppression system in place. I am not certain about the state of my halon system, and do not wish to live fire test it:). In my mind I would not DIY install that system without some serious thought and professional input on how to handle any fires resulting from the installation of such batteries. Its not a question of if they have a problem, but when and how often. Boeing predicted a battery fire every 10 million flight hours, but in reality it was every 25,000 hours. That might seem like an eternity on a pleasure boat except if the failure happens in the first hour of use.

So for me, given the small amount of power, frequency of use, and intended use, flooded or AGM's are going to be just fine. I'll leave that upgrade to the next owner.

LI technology has changed since the events you and Todd320 are referencing. These events were technically called "thermal run-away" and primarily due to the battery chemistry used for those batteries. The Lithium Iron Phosphate technology used for marine and automobiles has all but eliminated the thermal issues with the batteries and additionally now most all come with a Battery Management System integrated to protect the battery from overcharge, under voltage, and over temperature. Your references to fire risk and overtemp are not applicable to our applications. There are a lot of data on these batteries so read up.....
LI batteries are sensitive to the ambient temperatures they are installed and if for example in a 120 Deg F engine room their life will be greatly shortened as in any battery. For my application, they will be installed under the solon sofa which also houses the solon AC unit and, consequently, will have great cooling air flow.
 
I think the newer generators are much quieter based on what I’ve observed around here. There are several videos online on adding a second muffler to quiet the older versions down.

In speaking with Centek engineering, I gather they thought the existing muffler is under sized. Basically bare minimum for the application. I had them spec a larger 2 stage, but getting it into place may prove a serious challenge.

I’m contenplating pulling the generator over the winter to recondition it...has a good amount of rust. Clean up the rust, put a new muffler in and redo the vibration mounts.

If you plan on doing that with the generator then you may want to hold off on doing the inventor setup until after you see the results of the genny refresh.
While I really like the idea of the invertor, a quick cost benefit analysis made me realize it didn’t make a lot of sense for me for the way I use the boat.
 
Tom, my apologies.. that chemistry is a different animal.
 
Measured 2 locations for a battery bank and inverter.

1st choice is under the companion seat. I dont utilize the space except for junk, and still leave me room for my most used items and several life jackets for immediate access. This area has very good ventilation with a large opening that "drains" down into the cockpit area. The inverter would be located in the gunwale. The downside of this is battery access. The companion seat is bolted down. If I could put it on a hinge it would be a huge improvement for access to the batteries, but everything else in that location.

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2nd choice would be to locate the batteries on the floor between the engines and build a shelf over the water heater to locate the inverter. I don't like this because the a lot of maintenance requires me to lay down in that area to access things. On the plus side, I wouldnt take up any on deck storage space.

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If you plan on doing that with the generator then you may want to hold off on doing the inventor setup until after you see the results of the genny refresh.
While I really like the idea of the invertor, a quick cost benefit analysis made me realize it didn’t make a lot of sense for me for the way I use the boat.

I try to avoid doing this math. The cost is high, and there is no reasonable financial rationalization for any of this. If I did this, I'd have to sell the boat and put the money under my mattress. :)
 
I try to avoid doing this math. The cost is high, and there is no reasonable financial rationalization for any of this. If I did this, I'd have to sell the boat and put the money under my mattress. :)
Lol! You got that right!
 
I built an e bike capable of 70km per hr that runs on a 48v20a hr battery I can run full out and my controller puts out 40A at 48v DC for 2 hrs . That battery pack cost me 600 us dollars . The pack is the size of a small car battery and when money permits I will order a 12v 80Ahr for my boat I will use my boats charging system underway or dock power with an additional 100 watt pv array . Total cost will be about 1000 us . I use the battery I have at a high discharge rate and after 5 years it is still performing well. I would not think it feasable for high demand for long periods but coffee making or toast in the am us doable with the right load controller for short periods for sure. my bikes hub output is 1400 watts.
 
Our P.O. put an inverter in the year before we bought it. Xantrex 4000 with 4 golf cart batteries (Costco). We don't do much on the hook but it's sure nice to have everything 120v available w/o shore or genny going. And the OCD comes out in me if I have to reset the clocks everytime I get onboard. lol
 
David - here is a data point that may help. On my 400DA and the 1.8KW inverter I installed one additional 100AH battery to the Starboard bank (the house bank). That made for a total of two port, one generator, and three starboard; all new AGM 100AH batteries. With a total of 300AH on that house bank we could shut down the generator at dusk watch movies with the audio system on then have two pots of coffee in the morning and watch the news. Batteries typically at 11.0 volts in the morning when the generator was started back up. The key to this was to start with the battery banks at full charge in the evening and to do this I had to upgrade to a larger charger which was a Pronautic 1250p your choice of the Magnasign 1228 will also accomplish the charge profile. This poor picture was my battery arrangement during the installation which is in the original battery location. Using the AGM batteries I was able to install a large storage shelf above them. This is on the port side outboard. I had stainless steel racks fabricated.
IMG_1632 AGM Install.JPG
 
Tom and Bill

Thanks for the input. Still considering my options, and having some real world experience sure helps a lot.

Upgrading the house bank might be a good solution too. I don’t have that much more real estate were the batteries currently reside, so in order to get these batteries in, I’d have to build a custom rack, and go up (dual layer).
 
David - here is a data point that may help. On my 400DA and the 1.8KW inverter I installed one additional 100AH battery to the Starboard bank (the house bank). That made for a total of two port, one generator, and three starboard; all new AGM 100AH batteries. With a total of 300AH on that house bank we could shut down the generator at dusk watch movies with the audio system on then have two pots of coffee in the morning and watch the news. Batteries typically at 11.0 volts in the morning when the generator was started back up. The key to this was to start with the battery banks at full charge in the evening and to do this I had to upgrade to a larger charger which was a Pronautic 1250p your choice of the Magnasign 1228 will also accomplish the charge profile. This poor picture was my battery arrangement during the installation which is in the original battery location. Using the AGM batteries I was able to install a large storage shelf above them. This is on the port side outboard. I had stainless steel racks fabricated.
View attachment 60106


Where did you install that six battery bank, it looks carpeted but your post say original location.
 
I’ve seen boats with large solar panels and they appear to provide quite a bit of power, one video for a greenline hybrid boat mentioned they were at the boat show for 2 days, not connected to power, and the LI battery was still at 97% even though it was powering their ac circuit, they had bright sunny days and were only running one AC unit, fridge, lights etc. They could be overstating the reality of the situation, but that’s what they said in the report. Is there any feasible location on your boat for solar panel installs, i am guessing no, but just a thought.
I am building a rack for rigid panels on my boat on top of the canvas using parts from Gemini marine products . Pictured are the fittings for one side the concave fork mounts will be fastened through the canvas to the bimini bows I plan on reinforcing the canvas at these points with a heavy pvc material that higher end inflatable kayaks are made from since that is already in my shop
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Holy Cow!!! They'll cost as much as my boat is worth lol! Those are a very awsome battery technology, but I think overkill for my purposes. If I can vent the battery area, I'm going to start with the Costco Flooded, if not I'm going to have to buck up to the Sealed AGM's Trojan has several lines with various life spans, so there is a balancing as to power available, DoD and weight and as always the almighty $$$.

Since I dont know exactly how we'll use the system, other than what I've calculated in my spead sheets, I think $400 for batteries is acceptable losses if its not exactly as I planned, and I can re evaluate when those crap out.

https://www.trojanbattery.com/markets/renewable-energy-re/
Wow 15 g is large I can't imagine it being that much it's not a house.lol. however even if that's correct it works out to 1200 cups for 2 at 4 bucks a piece lol
 

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