Problem with my port engine in my 2003 340DA.............

[rgl1100]

I have a problem and a number of questions.........

First, the quick overview...........my port engine cranks but won't fire. Has been perfect all season. It is a Horizon 8.1 in my 2003 340 DA. Now, my main panel has both a main switch key and a black toggle switch that must be engaged in order for the engine to be fired up. I'm sure most of you are familiar with this set up. What's happening is when I place both the key and the toggle in the "run" or, in other words, "on" position and try and crank the engine the black toggle trips to "off" and the cranking stops........

My starboard engine runs fine so I did a small experiment. When I placed the key in the on position and then turned on the black toggle to the starboard engine I heard and electrical "engagement". It's faint but definitely audible. It sounds like a fuel pump being primed quickly for just a second. When I did the same experiment with the port engine I hear nothing. My batteries are now charged (and the port engine cranks fine but won't start). It sounds like the engine may not be getting fuel. Therefore I located the fuel pumps which are located above the gas tanks in the engine compartment. I did the same experiment with the key and toggle switch expecting to hear the "priming" sound when I was right infront of the fuel pumps but they're both silent. That sound seems to come from somewhere behind the panel. I removed the panel to try and locate it but I still can't. I thought perhaps it might be a bad toggle but how can I tell? I'm really frustrated because the boats been great all season. I really don't want to end the season like this. Any ideas what the sound is and if the lack of it could mean something specific as to why the port engine won't fire and continually trips the toggle? Help...........

 

[Kreole Kid]

i was gonna say change the solenoid, but, that tripping of the breaker has me stumped :smt017...

 

[travis340]

I have a 2005 340 with 8.1's and in the manual it discusses electric fuel valves mounted between the fuel tank and the engines. They are "wired to the ignition switch". Each has a manual override knob that can be turned to open or close the fuel valve in the event of a malfunction. You might try this and see if the engine fires. If so you will have isolated the problem. I tried to attach the page from the manual, but it exceeds some maximum file size. If you want you can PM me and I will email that page to you or you can search for the owners manual on line. Good luck.

 

[rgl1100]

I actually was reading that portion of the manual. I will try this and see if it solves the problem

 

[Lazy Daze]

I'm not sure what is going on, but here is some info that may be helpful... or maybe not....:smt001

The fuel shutoff valve will be located in the bilge with fuel line connected to each side of it. It replaces the mechanical anti-siphon valve (installed directly in tank). It's a goldish/silverish color, cylindrical in shape (about 2" in diameter and maybe 3" or 4" tall). There will be a small, knurled knob sticking out perpendicular to the main body.

Can you try swapping the two toggle switches? See if the problem goes to the stbd engine.

 

[rgl1100]

I've been sitting today trying to go over everything I can in my mind. Everything tells me that it is most likely a fuel problem. This engine has run perfectly all season. The problem all started when I allowed the batteries to run down to almost nothing. It wasn't on purpose. The boat is on a mooring rather than a slip and I inadvertently left the solenoids charged while I wasn't on. When I returned the batteries had worn down. Now I know what you might say..........deep cell AGM batteries shouldn't run out with just the solenoids engaged but it seems I've always had some issues with the starboard battery bank. I replaced 2 of the 4 batteries last year. Regardless, when I finally was able to hook up to shore power and recharge the batteries (however, it's only been less than 24 hrs) this problem started. You might say that its a low battery but both engines crank fine and the starboard engine is running fine. As soon as I crank the port engine the black toggle kicks off and the circuit breaker flips. I definitely want to try switching the toggle circuit breaker but I really don't think that is it.

 

[Lazy Daze]

I agree with you in regards to the battery. If the port engine is spinning up just as fast as the stbd, batteries are fine.

Circuit breakers (at home, as well) do "wear out". When they start wearing out they exhibit the condition you are talking about... tripping very easily.

EDIT: Had a server problem in the middle of typing.

It may not be the toggle/breaker, but luckily this one is easy enough to check. If for nothing else to rule it out.

 

[rgl1100]

OK so just to be thorough I went and switched the black toggle switches on the main panel. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending upon how you view it) the toggles are fine since the same tripping of the circuit occurs. OK so I know it's not the toggle.......What I really want to know is what this sound is when the ignition key is turned on and the toggle is placed in the "on" position. It certainly sounds like a solenoid is energized and my bet is it's the fuel pump. However, as I mentioned in my earlier post I went into the engine compartment and sat by the fuel pump and that is NOT where the noise originates from. I actually can't find it. However, I do know that it only occurs on the starboard engine that is working fine. My next step is to manually turn on the port side fuel pump and attempt to start the engine.
Of note.......I'm also wondering if it still might be a bad battery on the port side. The reason is that when you fire up the engines and alarm sounds when you depress the starter rocker switch on the dash. An audible alarm sounds until the rocker switch is fully depressed and the engine begins to crank. When I depress the rocker switch for the port engine I get no alarm whatsoever. I am able to crank the engine because I have it hooked up to shoreside external power at the moment. However, I tried turning off shoreside power and attempting a crank of the port engine and it did crank very briefly until, once again, the curcuit breaker in the toggle switched to the "off" position. I'm still confused but I will get there. Can't anyone help with telling me where or what the sound is when I energize the key and toggle?

 

[Bucit]

When I turn my key(s) on I hear a noise for a few seconds and it's the fuel pump.

 

[rgl1100]

That's what I think also but are you certain that's what it is? Or is this an educated guess like mine....................

 

[rgl1100]

Here's a question for someone................Could the fuel pumps have their own circuit breaker and/or solenoid that is not in the same place as the pump itself. I've tried to look at every fuse box I can find and I do not see a breaker for the fuel pumps but perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place. If the solenoid for the fuel pump is located elsewhere than the pump itself (pump in the 340 sits on top of the gas tanks so that you may access them from the engine compartment) it might be a blown fuse and/or damaged solenoid.

 

[Lazy Daze]

Like Bucit mentioned, the fuel pump will make a sound for a few seconds - not just a "click". The fuel pump makes a sort-of "purring" sound.

Just guessing here, but the click you hear could be the fuel shut-off valve mentioned above (did you find those, yet?). You can check that out with your stbd engine.

Hmmm... the "using shoreside/not using shoreside" thing has me stumped. Even if you had a dead battery, it shouldn't cause the breaker to trip.

Just as an FYI, the alarm that you hear before the engine starts is because you have no oil pressure. Once the engine starts to crank it begins to build pressure and the alarm stops.

 

[Bucit]

That's what I think also but are you certain that's what it is? Or is this an educated guess like mine....................

I know it's the fuel pumps on mine but I have different engines. I would assume that all newer fuel injected engines are set up like that.

 

[rgl1100]

Like Bucit mentioned, the fuel pump will make a sound for a few seconds - not just a "click". The fuel pump makes a sort-of "purring" sound.

Just guessing here, but the click you hear could be the fuel shut-off valve mentioned above (did you find those, yet?). You can check that out with your stbd engine.

Hmmm... the "using shoreside/not using shoreside" thing has me stumped. Even if you had a dead battery, it shouldn't cause the breaker to trip.

Just as an FYI, the alarm that you hear before the engine starts is because you have no oil pressure. Once the engine starts to crank it begins to build pressure and the alarm stops.

Thanks for the reply. I know I have found the fuel valves. In the 340 they rest on the top of the tanks above the main breaker box. The starboard side has both the starboard fuel valve along with the generator fuel valve. The port side has the port fuel valve. I'm really convinced the sound (which definitely is a "purring" sound for just a second or two) is the fuel valve either turning on or priming. I'm not getting any of that or the oil pressure alarm when I try starting the port engine. However, as I said, the engine cranks for a second or two until the toggle switch on the main panel inside the boat, next to the main key, trips. Then the cranking completely stops. It sounds like the boat isn't getting fuel. I need to manually override the fuel valve by turning the knurled knob on the front. I'm assuming that will also keep the circuit from tripping when I attempt to crank the engine.

 

[ZZ13]

Did you try pressing the emergency start rocker switch next to your start rocker switch at the helm, to bridge the starboard and port batteries together? If your port batteries are truly the problem, this should start the port engine. Except the tripping the breaker thing doesn't add up in that case...

 

[Lazy Daze]

Thanks for the reply. I know I have found the fuel valves. In the 340 they rest on the top of the tanks above the main breaker box. The starboard side has both the starboard fuel valve along with the generator fuel valve. The port side has the port fuel valve. I'm really convinced the sound (which definitely is a "purring" sound for just a second or two) is the fuel valve either turning on or priming. I'm not getting any of that or the oil pressure alarm when I try starting the port engine. However, as I said, the engine cranks for a second or two until the toggle switch on the main panel inside the boat, next to the main key, trips. Then the cranking completely stops. It sounds like the boat isn't getting fuel. I need to manually override the fuel valve by turning the knurled knob on the front. I'm assuming that will also keep the circuit from tripping when I attempt to crank the engine.

The shutoff valve won't make a purring sound. It's basically just an "on/off" switch. The fuel pump is what makes the purring sound.

Regardless, something is missing in this scenario. I just can't put my finger on it. Something electrical is happening though. If it was a fuel pump, you'd have a starting/running issue - but a lack of fuel shouldn't cause a breaker to trip.

Since it does crank for a few seconds, pull an easy-to-get-to spark plug and look/smell for fuel.

Your toggle switch/breaker are an all-in-one thing?

Keep the info coming - gotta keep thinking about this......

 

[rgl1100]

The shutoff valve won't make a purring sound. It's basically just an "on/off" switch. The fuel pump is what makes the purring sound.

Regardless, something is missing in this scenario. I just can't put my finger on it. Something electrical is happening though. If it was a fuel pump, you'd have a starting/running issue - but a lack of fuel shouldn't cause a breaker to trip.

Since it does crank for a few seconds, pull an easy-to-get-to spark plug and look/smell for fuel.

Your toggle switch/breaker are an all-in-one thing?

Keep the info coming - gotta keep thinking about this......

You bring up an interesting point but I've looked at my manual and schematics. It appears to me that there is no separate fuel pump (unless the fuel pump is on the engine itself. Regardless, the purring sound is definitely not coming from the engine itself) The schematic shows three distinct electrical fuel valves, one for each engine and one for the generator. Your thinking seems correct. If the electric fuel valves are simply for safety then they would just be a simple open/close valve and likely wouldn't produce a purring sound. However, the sound is definitely there when I turn the starboard engine key and toggle to the "on" position. Does anyone know if there is a separate fuel pump in the Horizon 8.1 engine or, specifically, on the 2003 340DA?

 

[Lazy Daze]

Yes, fuel pump/pumps are mounted on the engine. Depending on what type of "Cool Fuel" module you have (do you have a spin-on fuel filter or the cartridge/drop in style?) the two pumps (low and high pressure) are either mounted in the cool fuel module or "sort of" separately. But either way, they are basically engine-mounted.

 

[rgl1100]

Yes, fuel pump/pumps are mounted on the engine. Depending on what type of "Cool Fuel" module you have (do you have a spin-on fuel filter or the cartridge/drop in style?) the two pumps (low and high pressure) are either mounted in the cool fuel module or "sort of" separately. But either way, they are basically engine-mounted.

Dennis, I was just reading an interesting thread here on the forum from Jan. of this year. I posted a reply to the thread hoping I might get a response from the individual who posted it. It turns out that the fuel pumps (which I now have a better understanding of where on the engine they reside---just what you described) have two fuses located on the engine itself in the harness. They are located in what appears to be a watertight compartment just behind the PCM unit on the starboard side of the engine. I won't have a chance to check this until tomorrow but it's worth a try. It sure feels like this should be a fuse problem but I certainly could just be hoping. Can you imagine.............completely stopped in your tracks by a 20cent fuse................

BTW, I looked up the schematic on Marine Parts Express.com and looked at the 8.1 inboard schematic. The specific schematic I looked at was the PCM-Bracket.pdf It shows the fuse but it doesn't specifically say it's for the fuel pump. I got that information from the earlier post I referred to.

 

[Woody]

If your breaker is good then it trips because of high current draw. I would check battery voltage and check wire connections first.