Sea Ray Diesels

[NotHerDecision]

3000-3500?? I hope you mean to break-in. It's not uncommon to see commercial 3116 and 3208 Cat's with 8 thousand hours on a well maintained boat.

Ok, I stand by my comments in the above thread, but here is more of my thoughts...

Yes both gas and diesels can last many more hours if maintained properly, but let's be frank about it. Most Marine engines are not. In the marine world (recreational, not commercial) you won't find many gas engines without major issues that have not been rebuilt above 1200 on the market. Same goes for Diesels with more then 3000 hours. T this point in their lives, most have had major service or been replaced. I'm not saying they can't but I AM saying they typically don't.

CaptRonn

I disagree with your comment about Gas rivaling the hours of a diesel, if both are properly maintained, the gas engine doesn't stand a chance, end of story.

Commercial engines are a different animal altogether, first they are properly maintained, Secondly they are typically detuned, lastly, they are ran almost constantly without sitting.

In my opinion, the thread was about gas vs diesel in general and I am attempting to say something very basic and I'll leave it at this. Diesel engines cost more, operate more efficiently, last longer, and hold resale value. As they age the cost gap at purchase slowly declines as the enjoyment continues.

Josh

 

[CaptRonn]

CaptRonn

I disagree with your comment about Gas rivaling the hours of a diesel, if both are properly maintained, the gas engine doesn't stand a chance, end of story.

Josh

That statement makes no sense whatsoever. How does keeping an engine (any engine) maintained that "it doesn't stand a chance"?

I've maintained diesel's, gas, turbines and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that one. A diesel does by design have a longer life span before needing major maintenance, but that life can be seriously decreased by negligence. The gas engine too can have a considerable lifespan (greater than the 1200 hours you cite) as long as it's also maintained on a regular basis and problems addressed before they become major.

For long range cruising (which I've done a lot of) I prefer diesels for the economy. For local boating a gas engine does just fine. Again, the problems I keep seeing on both are cheap owners who have little or no interest in maintaining their boats.

 

[JVM225]

My friend has a 2005 diesel powered 420 Sundancer and it's a beautiful boat.
Let me preface this by saying that I absolutely love my 410, and it is a much better value for what is essentially the same amount of boat, in comparing notes with my friend Inthink the 410 with the Cats is more fuel efficient than the Cummings powered 420, but if I didn't have one kid in a private college and another on the way to another private college I would have gone for the 420. After comparing it to my boat side by side it really seems like Sea Ray may have questioned owners about ways to improve the 410 when they were designing the 420.
The things I like about it more than my 2002 410 (again, this 410 is a great boat that I absolutely love):
The hardtop is fantastic to have, the bow slopes down so it is much easier to see over it from the helm seat when on plane, the bilge is huge with much more room to work on the motors because more of the deck lifts up, the larger bilge makes maintenance and repairs much easier, the waste tank is out in the open making the vent filter really easy to change, and the motors don't require 11 zincs each (especially the night mare ones in my Caterpillar after coolers).
The down side is the Cummings after coolers need to come off and get serviced every couple of years. More frequently than the Cats.
The good news is that I just watched him do it himself a couple of weeks ago and it is super easy to do for anyone that is a fairly competent DIY'er. He bought kits that included new hoses, grease, and just about everything else needed to do the job. The only other thing he needed was some Muriatic Acid from Home Depot. The Cummings aftercoolers come out in a matter of minutes, are easy to service off of the boat, and are reinstalled in just a few more minutes. Both sides were done in an afternoon with no busted knuckles or special skills, and he serviced the oil coolers too while he was at it.

 

[Sindbad]

JVM225 -

That is very good to hear. My friend has the 2003 410 with Cats and absolutely loves it too. Thanks for the excellent information.

Frank

 

[ttmott]

Ok, I stand by my comments in the above thread, but here is more of my thoughts...

Yes both gas and diesels can last many more hours if maintained properly, but let's be frank about it. Most Marine engines are not. In the marine world (recreational, not commercial) you won't find many gas engines without major issues that have not been rebuilt above 1200 on the market. Same goes for Diesels with more then 3000 hours. T this point in their lives, most have had major service or been replaced. I'm not saying they can't but I AM saying they typically don't.

CaptRonn

I disagree with your comment about Gas rivaling the hours of a diesel, if both are properly maintained, the gas engine doesn't stand a chance, end of story.

Commercial engines are a different animal altogether, first they are properly maintained, Secondly they are typically detuned, lastly, they are ran almost constantly without sitting.

In my opinion, the thread was about gas vs diesel in general and I am attempting to say something very basic and I'll leave it at this. Diesel engines cost more, operate more efficiently, last longer, and hold resale value. As they age the cost gap at purchase slowly declines as the enjoyment continues.

Josh

So let's preface this with the understanding correct maintenance (past and future) is a baseline and also an element of any survey. With this as a baseline I would expect to get 5000 plus hours from the my diesel engines; reliable hours....
With that said, and this forum has entertained this topic many times, in the life cycle of the boat the diesel engine is a better solution economically. That includes higher cost going in and higher value going out.
Also, in the end the diesel powered boat is a safer boat and insurance on equal boats is less with diesel. I'll give you a recent example regarding diesel fuel; I had the boat in the Berry Islands two weeks ago and one of the injector lines on the generator had a diesel fuel drip. I could not get that drip to stop (just had the injectors and injector pump serviced). Did I stop running the generator? No, no reason to; just put a diaper under it and check it every day. If this was gasoline the boat would be in a marina somewhere in the Bahamas awaiting parts....

 

[fwebster]

I have posted this before when diesel longevity comes up. I've been boating in NW Fla since the 70's, owning 40+ ft boats for about 30 years. As a results, I've met a lot of local who run diesels in commercial applications. I have one friend who has 18,000 hours on a pair of 375 hp 3208 Caterpillars in a charter boat. He fishes nearly every day and has so far has only had to replace one fuel pump, a hand full of injectors and a few alternators. Another friend bought a pair of rebuilt 3196's that Sea Ray replaced in a 480DB. This was the 2nd set that failed and the 480 owner told dealer either return my $$ or replace the engines. Well, those rebuilt 3196's are in a dive boat and now have 12,000 hours on them.

Maintain them according to the mfg recommendations....do not over load them.........and never let them run hot......and diesels will last virtually indefinitely. The exception is 2 stroke Detroits which are known to have a short TBO on the top ends.

As far as maintenance costs, it is a fallicy that diesel maintenance parts etc cost more. I buy my Caterpillar OEM filters, coolant, and parts when I am in Tennessee at a Cat dealer who is an earth moving equipment dealer. I don't buy the parts at the Cat dealer on the coast because of the "marine" mark up. My oil filters are about $16; fuel filters $18; coolant is cheaper than Prestone at NAPA. I do a lot of my own maintenance and I am spending a fraction of the money maintaining a pair of Caterpillars that I spent on 2 Merc 7.4's. This is mostly because the Caterpillars do not have the riser and manifold problems that Mercs do and because my aftercoolers are jacket cooled, not seawater cooled like Cummins. I would quit boating before going back to gas engines in larger boats, no matter how many hours/year I run.

 

[Gofirstclass]

Let me toss out a bit of a counterpoint to what everyone has said about how wonderful diesels are: If you do not cruise long distances (like your Mackinac trip) frequently, it may not make economical sense for you to buy a diesel boat of any kind.

You would have to own a boat a long time and cruise it a lot to make the additional costs of buying the boat make sense. If you're only doing one long trip a year and the rest are under 100 miles I'd suggest sticking with gassers. It will be cheaper in the long run.

Yes, people tout the higher resale value of the diesels but they also cost a helluva lot more in the beginning. Maintenance costs are not going to be substantially higher with a diesel but if you have a breakdown with a diesel, get out your VISA because you're going to need it.

I love my Cat 3406C's (turbo'd at 580hp each). They will push my fully loaded (65,000 lbs.) boat at 30kts and that ain't gonna happen with gas engines.

 

[aerobat77]

in usa you nevertheless live in fuel price paradise and i think thats the only reason +30ft boats with gassers are used . in my opinion a modern diesel makes sense at every boat size - more fuel efficient , less danger of fire , more range from a given tank capacity , cheaper fuel.

the only downside : with open exhausts a 8.1 V8 gasser wins the sound contest againt every caterpillar or cummins .

 

[RollerCoastr]

Let me toss out a bit of a counterpoint to what everyone has said about how wonderful diesels are: If you do not cruise long distances (like your Mackinac trip) frequently, it may not make economical sense for you to buy a diesel boat of any kind.

You would have to own a boat a long time and cruise it a lot to make the additional costs of buying the boat make sense. If you're only doing one long trip a year and the rest are under 100 miles I'd suggest sticking with gassers. It will be cheaper in the long run.

I have dock neighbor whose life would be completely different without diesels. His wife would have to drive an old car, they wouldn't be able to take fancy vacations or even enjoy their boat the way they do. It would impact their whole lifestyle and financial security. Oh, by the way, HE owns a diesel repair shop.

Lemme tell you about my other neighbor - the one paying for a rebuild after his port engine melted down a few weeks ago. He logs under 20 hours a year and his boat has never been beyond the next postal ZIP code, but someone 10 years ago told him that a 40 footer "needs" diesels. He doesn't do his own work, he doesn't have an "in" with a parts supplier and competent mechanics in our area (gas or diesel) are in HIGH demand. He's also not wealthy enough to not be seriously impacted by a 5-digit repair bill. The guy who told him he "needs" diesels didn't tell him what a rebuild will cost. His boating season was essentially over in June. He'll log under 5 hours this year. I bet he won't hit 20 hours next year. He'll be worried about repair bills and that takes some fun out of boating.

I don't enjoy the role of "defensive gasser owner", and I'm really NOT one! I fricken love diesels. I can't think of an engine under 15 liters that I haven't played with in a boat, and I love them all. I like the smell, the sound, the feel... Hino, Cummins C, Cummins B, QSM-11, Cat 3116, 3126 3196, 3406, DD 6V92-DDEC, 6V53, 671TA, VP 73P, D12, IPS to name a few - I can find something to enjoy about all of them.

My boat has been to Mackinac Island and beyond many times. To the shock and horror of the guys who think every boat over 33' with gassers will crumble and sink, I always make it home!

Last wkd the water was incredible. I dug-in the tabs, pulled back on the throttles and concentrated on my meters (which now calculate to the hundredth: thank-you Garmin!) and cruised along getting .85 sMPG. In a boat so many people say is too big for gas!

Yep - I could be going faster and getting even better economy with diesels. I could also have had my bank account drained, my season ended early and my neighbor and his techs in my ER for weeks on end.

It's boating. Nothing is free unless your boat has a great big pole sticking out of the deck.

 

[RollerCoastr]

in my opinion a modern diesel makes sense at every boat size -

Yeah, it does make sense for every boat - but not every BOATER! My neighbor with the melted port engine likely makes less than $150k a year. He really has no business owning $60,000 worth of high-strung marine diesel engines. The next repair could even impact their retirement.

I really feel bad for him. He's had the same boat for a long time, he sits on it in the same place every wkd. He should be sitting on cheap to buy, cheap to repair, cheap to replace gassers. If anyone disagrees, I'm sure he'll accept cash donations for the repair bill.

 

[Strecker25]

Yeah, it does make sense for every boat - but not every BOATER! My neighbor with the melted port engine likely makes less than $150k a year. He really has no business owning $60,000 worth of high-strung marine diesel engines. The next repair could even impact their retirement.

I really feel bad for him. He's had the same boat for a long time, he sits on it in the same place every wkd. He should be sitting on cheap to buy, cheap to repair, cheap to replace gassers. If anyone disagrees, I'm sure he'll accept cash donations for the repair bill.

Interesting take on diesels. We're looking at a range of boats from 340's up to 400's and I've always preferred the 400 with diesels up to this point. We're at cocktail speeds about 50-60% of the time, boat on a small bay with access to lake ontario, and take 2-3 trips a year all under 100 miles round trip. I am in no place to be repowering or rebuilding a diesel boat (financially), so even up to the 400 I would gladly accept the gassers. Not to mention the nearest diesel fuel dock is about 30 minutes from home port.

 

[northshore]

Thought provoking thread...

As foot-itis has set in the next boat that I'm getting very interested in is a 42 foot Aft cabin of the late 90's early 2000's persuasion and they have the gas/diesel option.

I do all of my own work on the 7.4's in the 340 I have now. It was a long time ago, but I have rebuilt automotive engines in the past so there is not much mechaical that scares me. But, what I know about diesels you could fit in a thimble and have a bit of room left over.
I had it in my mind that I really needed diesels for a 42' boat.

After reading some comments here and knowing that the vast majority of trips we take are not much more than 100 miles round trip, maybe diesels might not be the best way to go if that is a major consideration. Then again, the Horizon gassers apparently have a bad habit of dislodging valve seats and self destructing.

So I get the fuel economy and cost of fuel is better with diesels.
I've also heard that the torque you get out of diesels is helpful when docking.

So the diesel upside is performance / day to day operating costs
Down side if something is wrong / goes wrong, you will pay dearly.

So if you have the option of well maintained, low to moderate hours for the engine type one gas, one diesel, what would be the next few criteria that you would use to make the call?

 

[Woody]

Following our first long distance trip with our yacht club, I am now a definite believer in diesels. We traveled 475 miles round trip to Mackinac Island (Lake Huron) and the diesel boats had much better mileage/range ......not to mention the lower cost/gal vs. gas. I am planning to start looking for diesel and will likely stay with the Sundancer model, 2003-2005 vintage. We like our 2005 DA 390 with the 8.1HOs, but planning to do more long distance trips. I have heard lots of "water cooler" chatter about diesel over the years (e.g. high maintenance, etc. etc.) but am now looking for good factual trusted input from folks on the CSR board. I would appreciate any input, particularly with the 2003-2005 model years, and any things to avoid. Thanks so much.

Capt Frank

I think the question is how much you run it, how many hours and what percentage of that is cruising on plane.

A friend and I recently went through this. New to boating he asked lots of questions and was coached to get diesels. He had a deal going on one and it fell through so the search continued. The next thing you know he announced he purchased a aftcabin with twin 454's. He had decided he'd never get his money out of diesels. This based on advice from a guy with a 24' runabout that never leaves the dock.

We run together often, well sorta, 'cause we're never together, he cruises at 19-20mph and I cruise at 25-26. With a season and a half under his belt we did a comparison. So far his fuel costs have averaged $37/hour more than mine. He said the diesel version was 25K more, we allowed 15K in depreciation at time of sale some point in the future. At $37/hr that would be approx 400hrs to recoup, 400hrs is realistic in his case and after that he'd have been making money....using boat logic of course.

Now he's stuck with a pig, with a small resale market, tethered to fuel pumps, has a boat with little ability to adjust speed to sea conditions, and running his generator makes him nervous. He's having tons of fun with his boat, his money tree is large and never been an issue...he just didn't get it...he understands better now.

When he started boat shopping I told him that in a few years I'm going to run my boat to FL and Bahamas, then when I'm done boating there I'm going to leave it for sale and fly home. He said he wanted to do that too, now he knows he has to buy at least one more boat.:smt043

 

[Woody]

Thought provoking thread...

As foot-itis has set in the next boat that I'm getting very interested in is a 42 foot Aft cabin of the late 90's early 2000's persuasion and they have the gas/diesel option.

So if you have the option of well maintained, low to moderate hours for the engine type one gas, one diesel, what would be the next few criteria that you would use to make the call?

I don't know why 100mi trips has popped up. One 1,000mi trip or fourty 25mi trips, if you're up on plane cruising it's the same. All costs factored in, the more you use the boat the cheaper it's use becomes.

 

[RollerCoastr]

I figured that expressing my opinion about my neighbor having "no business owning..." will create some heat. It's an opinion, and an un-solicited one at that. I know a LOT of people near that income level who own high-strung diesels in a boat that had a gas option. Some have suffered big, some have done well. At very least, it's something to consider very seriously.

Another experience was taking a cruise on my neighbors boat, which is a diesel 410DA. (beautiful and for-sale btw) I had a blast maneuvering in close-quarters on a busy, windy day. When I said jump she was already halfway through the jump! Getting on-plane was slower, being nice to aging diesels and waiting for turbos and accepting a much steeper running angle... In 2 decades of my boat, I've never had an issue with forward visibility. The diesel ran so bow-high that I regularly stood up for a better view. In a channel I've run my own boat in literally hundreds if not thousand of times, I got the middle finger from a sailboater. I gave him a wide berth running 2400 and trimmed the best I could and I rocked the hell out of him. My boat wouldn't have sent him a wake he'd even notice. In fact, I plan to check his tabs to see if they're fully-deploying. She seemed a little quieter at fast cruise than my gasser. Even I, the diesel lover was annoyed by the noise at idle at the dock and the vibration if the genny.

Everything is a trade-off.

 

[aerobat77]

at the end of the day - gassers or diesels - its important that we had a good day on the water with our family and friends !

 

[RollerCoastr]

yep. ...and real the take-away here is to NEVER take advice about anything from a guy who never takes his boat out. People like that can't be trusted.

 

[blaster]

This thread is an example of why CSR is such a great site. One day, when I finish paying off my ex wife, and educate my children, I will buy a 35'+ Sea Ray with diesel power. I will take it from Port to Port and meet interesting people. I will introduce my grandchildren to boating. Hopefully, I will meet a lady who doesn't complain about being on my boat for more than two hours!

For now I have day boating

 

[northshore]

This thread is an example of why CSR is such a great site. One day, when I finish paying off my ex wife, and educate my children, I will buy a 35'+ Sea Ray with diesel power. I will take it from Port to Port and meet interesting people. I will introduce my grandchildren to boating. Hopefully, I will meet a lady who doesn't complain about being on my boat for more than two hours!

For now I have day boating

There was another thread going around, something to the tune of "Whats the best upgrade you have done to your boat?"
The best answer was "Wife 2.0"
I wish you well!

 

[Gofirstclass]

Hopefully, I will meet a lady who doesn't complain about being on my boat for more than two hours!(

Sorry, but you're about 13 years too late. That's when I met her and 9 years ago married her. And she's the best deck hand on the Columbia and Snake Rivers. Kinda easy on the eyes too!