Surge or Electric/Hydraulic?

I live in Indianapolis and there is no water around here so every trip to the lake is a long drive. Never had a boat that large but now have a 2006 225 Weekender that weighs over 4,700 lbs. It rides on a Shoreland'r Aluminum Roller Trailer, (6,000 lb cap.) with elecric over hydraulic disc brakes, contolled by a Prodigy after-market controller (which at times also controls my electric brake travel trailer). Prior to this, I had a 1987 230 Weekender that started with hydraulic surge drum brakes for about ten years until I upgraded it in about 1997 to hydraulic surge disc brakes. The surge discs were a major upgrade over the surge drums worth every penny. The electric over hydraulic discs are even better and worth every additional penny. The lives of the people in the tow vehicle and the tow vehicle and the boat are worth every penny you sepnd on brakes because you can not count on the rest of the peole on the road to not make your drive a challenge. My travel trailer has electric drum brakes and I can not say I would ever want those on the boat trailer that gets submerged (in my opinion that is 1960's technology for a boat trailer).
 
The EOH was a whole new trailer when I bought the new boat. When I upgraded the surge drums to surge discs the upgrade kit came with a new coupler so I replaced the old one. The only drawback to the electric over hydraulic brakes is you have to unhook them when you go up the ramp after dropping the boat off in the water because when you touch the brakes without the weight of the boat on the trailer they lock up.
 
Todd Indy said:
The EOH was a whole new trailer when I bought the new boat. When I upgraded the surge drums to surge discs the upgrade kit came with a new coupler so I replaced the old one. The only drawback to the electric over hydraulic brakes is you have to unhook them when you go up the ramp after dropping the boat off in the water because when you touch the brakes without the weight of the boat on the trailer they lock up.
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Sounds like your controller needs a little adjustment. It should have a couple of dials, the gain being how sensitive it is to the stopping motion itself. Double check the manual and if setup properly, it should reduce that problem. Worst case, you just manually adjust it once the boat is off, but if redjusting it is hard pulling the plug might be easier!
 
WayneT said:
I'm certain I will dump the surge at this point. I've found a couple forums where there are DIY insts for converting surge to EOH.
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Care to share those forums with us?

The MC on the 260 trailer is leaking so I'll have to replace the MC anyway. Is it as simple as swapping the surge MC with an electric MC? Is that cheaper than converting to electric brakes?

All the big cattle haulers arond here use electric over hydraulic on their goosenecks.
 
KRB64 said:
Care to share those forums with us?

The MC on the 260 trailer is leaking so I'll have to replace the MC anyway. Is it as simple as swapping the surge MC with an electric MC? Is that cheaper than converting to electric brakes?

All the big cattle haulers arond here use electric over hydraulic on their goosenecks.
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I tow a Chaparral 290 that I have converted to EOH. In order to do this, I removed the original MC that was in the Titan coupler, drilled 5 1/2" holes through the coupler and installed 4 grade 8 bolts to "pin" it stationary. For a replacement MC, I purchased the Dexter Axle unit for disc brakes and installed it in the forward part of the trailer. Threaded flex brake line removed from original MC was reinstalled on Dexter MC, added a battery (for breakaway), wired to plug on trailer.

This unit is controlled by the integrated brake controller in my F250 diesel tow vehicle.

IMO, there is no comparison to the surge brake system. The added control and independent activation that is possible cannot be overstated. Total wet tow weight (incl trailer) is ~12,200 lbs.

Pinned Titan coupler:

IMG_0017.jpg


Dexter unit on trailer:

IMG_0019.jpg


Full tow rig:

038.jpg


Hope this helps...
 
Nice.

Guess you could weld up the hitch too.

So the Dexter unit has an electric solinoid that activates the fluid? I've never looked at or thought about the dynamics until now.

Care to share the cost of your conversion?
 
KRB64 said:
Nice.

Guess you could weld up the hitch too.

So the Dexter unit has an electric solinoid that activates the fluid? I've never looked at or thought about the dynamics until now.

Care to share the cost of your conversion?
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You could definitely weld up the coupler. Or, you could replace it entirely, depending on whether your current one is welded or bolted on (like mine).

The Dexter unit is available and several online retailers (including etrailer.com and others). The best price I could find was around 600 for it. It is a sealed unit (except for the brake fluid reservoir cap and contains a fast-response electric motor to pressurize the brake lines in response to the relative voltage supplied to it by the brake controller (in the cab). It holds one (large) container of standard DOT brake fluid.

Grade 8 hardware to pin the coupler was less than 10 bucks at a local orange home store. Breakaway battery units are also available from a variety of sources--the one I used is from a local Northern Tool and Supply and runs around 50 bucks.

No direct cost for the controller as it was already in the tow vehicle.

Overall, less than a thousand dollars and a days worth of labor---much less than my deductible if the surge brakes couldn't perform in an emergency stopping situation :grin:.
 
stephenm27 said:
Overall, less than a thousand dollars and a days worth of labor---much less than my deductible if the surge brakes couldn't perform in an emergency stopping situation :grin:.
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Most people don't consider this when looking at upgrades or improvements. When it comes to safety I think its a lot easier to justify costs based on what you just said. And thats just the tangibles. Not to mention you or your loved ones (or a stranger) getting laid up or worse...

Thanks for the dollar figures and explination. I'll compare that to electric now.
 
We pull our 2001, 290 DA on our tri-axle trailer that has electronic brakes. I would go with electronic brakes for sure. It is nice to know, if some idiot does a bone head manuever while you are driving, that I can reach down to the brake controller and apply more to the brakes to make them stop quicker then normal. I would recommend getting a real nice brake controller if your tow vehicle doesn't have one built in. I would recommend a Prodigy brake controller.

Your tow vehicle is more then enough to tow your boat. I pull with a Ford Excursion, with the 7.3 diesel. I just added this year another trans cooler in series with the stock trans cooler. I can pull the boat with no problems, and with the electronic brakes I can stop safely with no problem.

My weakest link is my trans and thus far knock on wood, she has been still holding strong. You have an allison trans, so you are all good....
 
stephenm27 said:
installed it in the forward part of the trailer. Threaded flex brake line removed from original MC was reinstalled on Dexter MC, added a battery (for breakaway), wired to plug on trailer.
..
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Like your work. I'm just looking into changing my 4-wheel disc surge to EOH, so, I have a couple of questions being an ignorpotomus.

1.) It looks like you bought a piece of aluminum angle from the big box store and cut it to mount the Actuator. Yes?

2.) When you re-route the hydraulic line to the Actuator, you have to bleed the Lines? How do you do that?

3.) The Integrated Brake Controller - I'm guessing that when you press on the vehicle brake, a signal is fed to the controller which then applies a current to the actuator. Yes/No/What? If so, then you must be able to fine tune it? Yes? What about manual activation - can you apply trailer brakes only by pressing a button or pulling a lever?

4.) What about the wiring, you have to use the 7 pin connector. What do you do there. Cut the 5 pin connector off and re-wire to a 7 pin connector?

Sorry about all the dumb questions, I'm just trying to figure this stuff out.
 
JerryS said:
Like your work. I'm just looking into changing my 4-wheel disc surge to EOH, so, I have a couple of questions being an ignorpotomus.

1.) It looks like you bought a piece of aluminum angle from the big box store and cut it to mount the Actuator. Yes?

2.) When you re-route the hydraulic line to the Actuator, you have to bleed the Lines? How do you do that?

3.) The Integrated Brake Controller - I'm guessing that when you press on the vehicle brake, a signal is fed to the controller which then applies a current to the actuator. Yes/No/What? If so, then you must be able to fine tune it? Yes? What about manual activation - can you apply trailer brakes only by pressing a button or pulling a lever?

4.) What about the wiring, you have to use the 7 pin connector. What do you do there. Cut the 5 pin connector off and re-wire to a 7 pin connector?

Sorry about all the dumb questions, I'm just trying to figure this stuff out.
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Answers to your questions:

1.) Yes, it's mounted on a simple piece of angle aluminum stock from a local hardware store. Affixed to the trailer with stainless fasteners with Loctite on the threads for added safety.

2.) Yes, disconnecting the hydraulic line from the original surge master cylinder and attaching it to the new actuator does require you to bleed the system. To do this, you really need 2 people--one to open the bleed valve at the caliper and the other to activate the new actuator to pressurize the system. You can use the emergency "breakaway" switch on the battery backup to do this so no tow vehicle is required.

3.) There's a voltage supplied to the trailer that is proportional to the braking that the tow vehicle is applying. In my F250, there is an "integrated brake controller" that Ford includes that I use. More common, is the third-party controller that simply mounts under the edge of the dash in the tow vehicle. All of them have a manual activation lever as well as a "fine tuning" function that scales the voltage supplied to the trailer (and thus to the actuator). Adjusting this feature will allow you to specify just the right amount of trailer braking relative to tow vehicle braking.

4.) My trailer already used a round 7 pin connector (which includes a wire for electric braking) so nothing was required there except for the addition of a wire from the trailer side of the connector to the actuator/breakaway battery system.

The only dumb question is the one you forgot to ask when you realize you trailer brakes aren't working :grin:.
 
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Great comments by all. One thing I would add is that if you are going to have a problem with surge brakes, you most likely won't know it until you need them. EOH and full electrical systems can be tested by simply pulling the controller lever. If you are having a delay on EOH activation then check the brake adjustment.
 
I have to say that when I started looking at this thread this morning, I didn't know much about the subject. I had seen others mention "Electric/Hydraulic" brakes, but, thought they were talking about two wheels with hydraulic brakes and two wheels with electric brakes (ie: the RV brakes).

I was not aware of the newer "Electric over Hydraulic" brakes which use an electrical circuit to activate the trailer master brake cylinder. Now, I like that idea.

And then, the controller (I like the Tekonsha Prodigy) sends a signal to the master cylinder when there is an inertia change in the vehicle. (Sounds like spaceship stuff)

This is what I have lined up:
Prodigy Brake Controller w/Ford Adapter...... $120
(90185-3035p)
Dexter EOH Disc Brake Actuator (K71-651)... $550
Hopkins Break Away System...........................60
Nuts/Bolts,etc............................................ 20
---------------------------Est. Total.......... $750

Does anyone see anything that I'm missing here or have gotten wrong?
 
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JerryS said:
And then, the controller (I like the Tekonsha Prodigy) sends a signal to the master cylinder when there is an inertia change in the vehicle. (Sounds like spaceship stuff)

This is what I have lined up:
Prodigy Brake Controller w/Ford Adapter...... $120
(90185-3035p)
Dexter EOH Disc Brake Actuator (K71-651)... $550
Hopkins Break Away System...........................60
Nuts/Bolts,etc............................................ 20
---------------------------Est. Total.......... $750

Does anyone see anything that I'm missing here or have gotten wrong?
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Might want to look at the Tekonsha P3 as it has a setting for EOH. I don't believe the Prodigy is designed to work with EOH.

What brakes do you have on the trailer now?

I just upgraded mine from single axle surge drum brakes to dual axle EOH disk brakes.
 
Westie said:
Might want to look at the Tekonsha P3 as it has a setting for EOH. I don't believe the Prodigy is designed to work with EOH.

What brakes do you have on the trailer now?
.
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You are correct, I called etrailer and they confirmed. I think that I looked in six different places and nowhere does it say in their ads that the unit is for electric brakes and not electric over hydraulic. Thanks for spotting that - that kind of stuff is what makes for headaches. The Tekonsha Prodigy P3 is selectable for either electric or EOH.

I have disc brakes on four (4) wheels.
 
JerryS said:
2.) When you re-route the hydraulic line to the Actuator, you have to bleed the Lines? How do you do that?
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The two person method is cheap and works fine as long as you are in synch -apply pressure, open valve, close valve before pressure is removed, repeat.

If you do this much or need to do it by yourself you can buy a cheap little bleeder that creates a vacuum at the valve so you can do it all by yourself and the fluid is all self contained:

http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_hvpk.asp#MV8020

There's a sequence too. Start at the brake furthest (brakeline distance) from the actuator and work your way back

Does everybody still use DOT 3 or is silicone better now since this is a marine environment?
 
Wanted to thank everyone for their contribution to this important topic. I ended up with a Regal 2860 (no hate mail plz :grin:), roughly the same size as the 290, but heavier with a 9K dry weight. Both fine boats, but the SEARAY forum is MUCH better :smt038

Like the idea of pinning the existing hitch coupler with grade 8 hardware. Will probably weld it as extra insurance. Good pix.

For the BrakeRite EOH conversion a special adapter is required for Ford and GM integral brake controllers. The adapter apparently replicates the electric brake magnets not used by the EOH but needed for the integral brake controllers to work.
 
speakrdude said:
Hey Hoosier, Ho did you deal with your hitch during the change over? Did you replace it or block it off?

Jim
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I know this is REALLY late but I've been doing ALOT of boating this year:smt038 and not much time on the puter. :huh:
My hitch was bolted on and I changed it. Really easy and not much money.
 
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