Transmission Coolers and Transfer Pipe - Clean&Repair or Replace?

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines/Drives/Transmissions/Props' started by dtfeld, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
    Digging into the transmission fluid and coolers. Found a few things I'd like some feedback on.

    Transmission coolers - I had to pull the starboard as i had a zinc stuck in the housing and stripped the brass hex head, so I took the opportunity to pull both. Both look to be in pretty good shape other than a good buildup of scale. I do not know the age of these, but I would guess just a few years. Can these been cleaned up or should I replace?

    42471F1B-50F9-4513-9F03-76A76F2FD284.jpeg 7A7B5B42-9804-46F7-8AF6-6B1234E4AD04.jpeg 1A17731C-4D6A-45D1-BF78-B3F1CED1BE66.jpeg B2E540BF-FA24-4411-8775-0FB9A42286F6.jpeg

    Transfer Pipe - Inspecting the system, I found that the pipe coming from the raw water pump to the transmission cooler was wearing against the bolt holding the engine hatch power lift, and has damaged the pipe. This pipe is about 3' long and about 1-1/2" in diameter...I can imagine this is not a cheap CAT part, but I'm wondering if I could have a shop braze in a repair?

    I already swapped the bolt around on the hatch lift, for additional clearance.

    929FFCAA-4CE2-4E87-9217-464F9E10E8EA.jpeg 7A786981-EB27-46C2-8097-0A3ED3868337.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
    JVM225 likes this.
  2. JVM225

    JVM225 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 8, 2008
    Farmingdale, NY
    2002 410 Sundancer, Monaco Edition.
    3126 Cats.
    Dave, I’d probably clean out those coolers if they look to be in otherwise good shape.
    As far as that transfer pipe, I’d probably check with Caterpillar to see if they have it and if so, what they want for it before I attempted a repair.
    I think I remember reading a thread about that bolt and pipe on one of these threads. Maybe the 410 thread? Might be worth looking for it, and reaching out to the author if he is still around to see what he did.
     
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  3. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
    Easiest way to clean them? Cover the oil ports and fill with barnicle buster or take to a transmission shop? Not sure the shops here in Atlanta would know what to do with a marine scale.
     
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  4. JVM225

    JVM225 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 8, 2008
    Farmingdale, NY
    2002 410 Sundancer, Monaco Edition.
    3126 Cats.
    FrankW might be a better person to advise you, but I would probably try to clean them with a combination of some rods and barnacle buster first. I’m not sure what chemicals the radiator shop would use to boil them out and without knowing I would be concerned about what they might do to solder joints or other areas, and if there was some deterioration of soldered joints I don’t know how skilled the guys at the radiator shop would be at repairs. They are used to boiling and soldering radiators, and the coolers work the same way, but there may be unique idiosyncrasies to the coolers.
     
  5. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    The tubes inside are delicate. Do not try to "rod" them out first. Use 50% muriatic acid and soak the entire core, leaving the hydrailic fittings pointed up so they don't get acid in them. Then usev a wooden dowel or aluminum rod to run down the tubes to clear what will chip away, then resoak in acid. Keep going until they are clean. Or, take them to a radiator shop and have them cleaned.

    Your boat was a salt water boat by the looks of the oil coolers. You might consider replacing both oil coolers pre-emptively. Yours are 18 years old and by the looks of them they have never been serviced. If they leak sea water into the transmission, you will ruin a $6500 transmission before you can get back to the dock, but more importantly, you have no warning until the transmission begins to slip and then you are done. We have a newer (maybe 2005) 40DA on the hill now because the transmission oil cooler leaked sea water in the transmission......a new transmission is being installed by the dealer and with labor this $560 oil cooler is going to end up costing about $10K. I just ordered new oil coolers last month, painted them yesterday and will install them when we get a work day. I got the marina to order Cat replacements from SenDure and with their mark up the cost was about $525. Something worth considering...........



    The damage to the cooling tube by the hatch lift abraision is a common problem on 410's try shimming the bolt or reattaching the leiner actuator in a different position to get a bit of clearance from the tube.
    The tube can be repaired by a competent welding shop by brazing piece of brass over the damaged area. I fixed 2 here in about 20 minutes, so it isn't a big repair.
     
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  6. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives

    I sent an email off to Sen Dure with the serial numbers to see if they could tell me how old these are. The white one sure does look original, and is the one with the frozen zinc, so replacing that looks like a good deal. The other one looks to be much newer (at least I would guess that judging the serial #).

    I assume $525 is per unit, so about $1050 for both? There are other options...Mr. Cool comes up first in a google search, and are $299. Is this a case of you get what you pay for?
     
  7. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    There are lots of variables here.........with hydraulic fittings or without, thickness of the internal tubes, thickness of the outer case, with drain plug or without, one anode or 2, etc. so it is hard to rule out Sendure or rule in Mr. Cool on the basis of price alone.

    I make a lot of my parts decisions based on the experience of our parts guy at the marina and this is one of those. He has 30 years experience in the marine parts are and he has never had a SenDure cooler fail, other than from neglect. They are an OEM supplier for a lot of engine makers. I've replaced one when a transmission failed, and it was a bolt on exact replacement so it was an easy call for me to buy from them again.
     
  8. The Bill Collector

    The Bill Collector Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tacoma, WA
    450 Sundancer
    3126 Cat's
    Several years back I pulled mine and ran them down to the local radiator shop... They came back as good as new.
     
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  9. carterchapman

    carterchapman Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 25, 2008
    Lake Chickamauga/Marietta, GA/Ft. Myers, FL
    2006 Sea Ray 58 DB
    MAN CRM V8-900s, Twin Disc Drives; Onan 21.5 Generator
    David - look for one of OSD9's Posts (the late Dominic) - he had the same problem with the hatch lift and he detailed the repair in a posting. It may be in that 410 document of knowledge that I sent you...
     
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  10. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
    Looks like I'm having a $450 part day...as in $450 each!

    I received an email back from Sen Dure, a guy named Winston Shutt. They had the records. The Starboard side is original to the boat, manufactured in 2001, the Port side was made January 2012. I ordered a new one strait from Sen Dure just as it was originally specified by CAT or Sea Ray for the Starboard side. I'm going to Barnicle Buster the other and inspect it to see it is servicable, then make a decision on the second cooler. Price $450, with a 4 week lead time.

    The pipe is available from CAT, Price, about $450 with a 2 day lead time.

    I'll look back over the 410 documents you gave me Carter and see what I can find. Evidently I have a few weeks to see about getting it repaired, which I think it the better option at this point.
     
  11. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives

    Found that thread...looks like they replaced rather than fix. Part was $200 then. Inflation!

    I think I'll take it up to a radiator shop and see ip it can be repaired. Or Maybe just put a pipe repair joint on it and re-install, I don't think the pipe is under a lot of pressure, an the pipe repair would prevent further damage and prevent a leak if it should develop.

    Sleeping on that one.
     
  12. carterchapman

    carterchapman Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 25, 2008
    Lake Chickamauga/Marietta, GA/Ft. Myers, FL
    2006 Sea Ray 58 DB
    MAN CRM V8-900s, Twin Disc Drives; Onan 21.5 Generator
    I recall that Dominic "re-aligned" (bent) the hatch lift mounting bracket as well...
     
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  13. quality time

    quality time Well-Known Member

    Oct 30, 2007
    Upper Chesapeake Bay
    2003 480DB and Kencraft 190 CC
    QSM11's
    I replaced the pipe with wire reinforced hose on my 380 when the same thing happened. No issues and a cheap fix.
     
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  14. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
    Inspecting the inside of the pipe I see no indication of cracks, pitting or other indication of pending failure. It’s very low pressure, soI think I’ll add a wrap of hose for protection, and reinstall and monitor the area.

    I already redid the mount for additional clearance.

    If need be I like the idea of wire reinforced hose. Seams simple enough.
     
  15. JVM225

    JVM225 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 8, 2008
    Farmingdale, NY
    2002 410 Sundancer, Monaco Edition.
    3126 Cats.
    What is this 410 document of knowledge that you speak of? Got my interest.
     
  16. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
    Its a collection of articles that OSD9 and Carter Chapman put together all pertaining to410 diesel sundancers. I think i have a cd somewhere, but i have the contents on my server. Its a large file but pm me your address, ill forward you a copy. Im sure Carter would be ok with that.
     
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  17. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    This is just my opinion, but I think you are defeating the purpose of CSR by copying and disseminating knowledge posts taken from the forum. Wouldn't it be better to post your question and get answers from other forum members so everyone can benefit from the answers?

    Site content is what makes CSR such a strong forum and I have never refused to help other members when they asked for help. However, it goes against the grain to see site content pirated, passed around the forum and then used only for the benefit of one person.
     
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  18. carterchapman

    carterchapman Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor SILVER Sponsor

    Mar 25, 2008
    Lake Chickamauga/Marietta, GA/Ft. Myers, FL
    2006 Sea Ray 58 DB
    MAN CRM V8-900s, Twin Disc Drives; Onan 21.5 Generator
    Frank - I would be glad to post it here, but it's a 40mb file - too large.
     
  19. JVM225

    JVM225 Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 8, 2008
    Farmingdale, NY
    2002 410 Sundancer, Monaco Edition.
    3126 Cats.
    Sent!
     
  20. dtfeld

    dtfeld Water Contrails GOLD Sponsor

    803
    Jun 5, 2016
    Milton, GA
    410 Sundancer 2001
    Cat 3126 V-Drives
     

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