Used Sundancer Questions

My boat neighbor went from a small pontoon lake boat straight to a 390DA. He was comfortable with it quickly. I also just purchased a 390DA last fall. Never got to use it prior to haul out. It's the largest boat I've owned but not by much. I'm selling a nearly new boat for a 13 year older one with lots more stuff that'll break. I've probably bumped my head too many times over the years. ;) The 390's of my vintage will use up most of your budget by the time you cover purchase, survey, taxes and possible transportation costs.
Best of luck on your search. I think in another couple of months you'll find the northern boats hitting the market. Of course, you'll also be dealing with more buyers too.
 
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I got say, been boating 30 years, 6 SRs, and there is no way ‘I’ would be comfortable docking a 40+’ boat. But as Dirty Harry said “a man has to know his limitations”.
I cant imagine trying it as a first boat. Good Luck.
Most Insurance will ask what experience and boats they have previously owned. I have heard people say they were turned down because it was too big of a jump
 
The one downside to forums and the Internet in general is getting answers to specific questions. You get a lot of well intended opinions about all sorts of stuff but no answers. I'm researching all of it elsewhere , but had hoped to get a jump start here.
Are there any Sundancer 380 to 500 owners who can provide input to those questions?
 
128 is me spitballing use @ 24 cumulative hours a week. Actual use would vary, again I'm looking at living on the boat for part of the year and hopping around on weekends to the next spot.
Agree on experience, this is a different animal than 18 & 20ft fish and skis. I just wanted to include my future intent for use. Advice would be different for something I only wanted for freshwater or coastal use where people drop anchor right outside their harbor.

If it helps... 100 hours/year is a sort of average for pleasure use of boats like ours. 200 would be high. Even on an annual 1200 NM trip from Annapolis to Florida and back, we'd do something like 250 trip hours and maybe 200 total hours total in each of the two attached "bookend" years.

And we usually spend something like 200+ days/year onboard.

-Chris
 
[QUOTE="Jus Cruisin, post: I'm selling a nearly new boat for a 13 year older one
[/QUOTE]
Any idea what the salon/galley headroom is floor to ceiling? Also I had noticed that on '05s they went with the straight pull out sofa that helps with squeezing in kids or overnight guests.
 
Some have been freshwater only, or say "freshwater cooled" can those be sea going too?

Ads that say "freshwater only" are generally referring to where they've been operated. Great Lakes and inland rivers and so forth. The idea is that the outsides of the boats, stainless and so forth, are less subject to saltwater corrosion... therefore the boat is worth a premium price. (Grain of salt required, there, so to speak... but it's not entirely untrue.)

"Freshwater cooled" is more about how engines work. "Freshwater cooling" is an enclosed system with coolant (fresh water plus antifreeze) running through the engine... and then instead of a radiator as on cars and trucks, the coolant is pump through an additional raw water system, where sea water replaces the function air serves in an automobile radiator. Imagine coolant (antifreeze) being pumped through a pipe (or a bundle of smaller tubes, actually) that is in turn surrounded by (and separated from) sea water.

Contrast that with "seawater cooled" which means raw water is actually coursing through all the engine cooling channels in the block. That works OK, better in freshwater (environment) than in saltwater (environment)... but it's not the greatest thing since sliced bread.

-Chris
 
Somewhat subjective, but at what point do most diesels need a tear down? I don't want to be cruising across the Gulf current and find out my engines needed it "last month".

Depends on actual engine, but generally...

Oil and filter, fuel filter, coolant filter changes are once/year. Raw water impeller changes (see cooling system info) maybe once every year or sometimes two. Coolant changes depends on engine. Belts, depends on wear. Hoses, depends on wear. Heat exchanger and aftercooler, depends on saltwater-ness of your environment, and also on engine. Valve adjustments and other more technical stuff depends on engine.

Once you know the engines you're looking at, finding the actual maintenance schedule isn't too difficult.

In general, though, there aren't (or there need not be) any huge surprises. You schedule your work, then work your schedule.

-Chris
 
Good info, what model do you have? That makes sense. I guess it depends on where I dock it. I'd save money and wear and tear by docking in Florida vs Texas. I'd run high generator hours and less mains!
My sister just took her 06 SR40 yacht from Florida to Kemah over 7 days and it was not cheap on fuel.
If it helps... 100 hours/year is a sort of average for pleasure use of boats like ours. 200 would be high.
And we usually spend something like 200+ days/year onboard.

-Chris
 
What are the ballparks on annual maintenance, assuming 128 hours a month of operation. Maybe more if I use it as my getaway for teleworking.

No way to ballpark costs perfectly. You'll read a common rule of thumb is 10% of purchase price, but that's a mere crock.

You can pin down some factors, though. Home marina dockage. Insurance. Loan payment, if any. External upkeep (washing, waxing, bottom cleaning and painting).

Then fuel is a function of how much you run the boat, and how you run it. (Run on plane a lot and all the time, $$$$. Run like a trawler most of the time, $. In between, $$ to $$$.)

Transient marina fees can fluctuate, depending on how often you hop from place to place, and/or how often you anchor out.

Things wear out on different schedules. If you have 4 ACs, chances are you might need to replace 1, 2, 3 or 4 of them in a given year. Fridges and freezers go south. Electronics either crap out and/or the siren song of new stuff entices you to buy new. Bilge pumps take a dump. etc. All that stuff can make your annual cost fluctuate by LOTS.

Using the boat as an office won't add much expense, assuming all those other things. You'll understand its not safe to work and drive at the same time... so the cost of working from the boat will mostly be covered elsewhere (marina fees) and/or your cellular plan and so forth.

-Chris
 
What engines from those years to avoid, etc.?

The only ones I know of that you might come across in some of those larger '95-2001 models are Cat 3176/3196s. And it's probably not like those are time bombs waiting to explode, just needs management.

There was a problem with soft blocks on some smaller Cats, 3116 or 3126, something like that... but reading suggests Cat covered all that in warranties.

Cummins QSM-11s need some special operating instructions, easily found, ditto not time bombs... but I think those didn't start appearing in Sea Rays until 2003-ish or so.

(I'm not expert on this stuff, so you'll want other input. And a membership in boatsdiesel.com won't hurt.)

-Chris
 
Good info, what model do you have? That makes sense. I guess it depends on where I dock it. I'd save money and wear and tear by docking in Florida vs Texas. I'd run high generator hours and less mains!
My sister just took her 06 SR40 yacht from Florida to Kemah over 7 days and it was not cheap on fuel.

Ours is a 58 Sedan Bridge. Fixer-upper.

Yes, where you dock can be a thing. Its also mostly within your control, so somewhat manageable.

Shore power means no generator hours while docked. An inverter installation can mean fewer generator hours underway... during the seasons where you might not need aircon and hot water while underway.

-Chris
 
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[QUOTE="Jus Cruisin, post: I'm selling a nearly new boat for a 13 year older one
Any idea what the salon/galley headroom is floor to ceiling? Also I had noticed that on '05s they went with the straight pull out sofa that helps with squeezing in kids or overnight guests.[/QUOTE]
I don't have dimensions but the PO was about 6'2" and didn't have headroom issues. Same with the helm. He could stand there, as well.
 
Rob, over a 20 year period I progressed from a 20' open bow to a 330 Sundancer to the 550 Sedan Bridge I recently sold. Each involved a lengthy learning curve because I'm a perfectionist who didn't want to settle for being a "half assed skipper" with a banged up boat.
 
Each involved a lengthy learning curve because I'm a perfectionist who didn't want to settle for being a "half assed skipper" with a banged up boat.
Glad it worked out for you!
I'm happy that I have time, intellect and ability to get training on the actual boat I'll be operating. Maybe I'll namer her "Learning Curve" .
Did you have any input on my actual Sundancer questions? I can repost if that helps?
 
  • Does anyone have feedback on which specific Sundancer model may be best? '95-2001? I had two different '96 330's, both with 5.7L's and loved both of them.

  • What engines from those years to avoid, etc.? Mine had 5.7L's and they worked great and gave decent fuel economy. A good friend had the same boat with 7.4L's. It cruised about 2-3mph faster but burned a lot more fuel doing it.
  • What are the ballparks on annual maintenance, assuming 128 hours a month of operation. Maybe more if I use it as my getaway for teleworking. My boats got used a lot but only put on about 40-50 hours IIRC. I don't recall the maintenance costs.
  • Somewhat subjective, but at what point do most diesels need a tear down? Depends. I'd hate to guess because it depends on the brand and how you use them. I had Cat 3406C's in my 550DB, each with ~1400 hours and they were far from needing a tear down. I don't want to be cruising across the Gulf current and find out my engines needed it "last month".
  • Some have been freshwater only, or say "freshwater cooled" can those be sea going too?
  • Some appear to have swim decks big enough for a PWC, yeah or nay on that? IMHO I'd say a big NAY
  • Newbie question: I know there's engine access, but do the cockpit panels come off if you need to get to interior to remove fridge and loungers etc. for refit/update? Sorry, can't help you there.
 
Alright I’m here to pee on your Cheerios. That’s a lot of boat for a new boater. Check with insurance companies as I have read they aren’t likely to insure that size with inexperienced owners. Personally I think you’re better off starting small and transitioning into a larger boat. Even if you make the change in 12-18 months you have a boatload of experience under your belt.

This. I “jumped” from a 33 footer to a 56 footer last year, and despite having decades of boating experience and ownership, most insurers wouldn’t touch it. Apparently many underwriters consider anything over a 10 foot “jump” to be an unacceptable risk. I would get a good insurance broker on board before you consider buying a boat that size as your first boat.
 
Couple of comments:

  • Does anyone have feedback on which specific Sundancer model may be best? '95-2001?
Boat preferences are typically very specific to the owner. Not an internet forum question that you will reach resolution with, the Sea Ray's in that time frame you are looking are very solid boats.

  • I read a review from a noted surveyor that the '98 DA500 was brutal in 3 foot chop. Any that handle well in rough water?
Are you asking about 3ft chop or rough water? Two different things. "noted surveyor" on the internet does not carry very much credibility with me. Talk to 2-3 DA500 owners, ask them first how they use their boat, to what extent they are cruising and have the discussion with them. Find the forum area where owners would be, ideally see if there is an "Official larger DA thread".

Before I bought our 47DB there was a ton of internet commentary about that boat riding stern heavy. When I dug in, for the most part it was from people offering an opinion after looking at the spec sheet, not hands on experience. They (the internet crowd) were wrong, the boat was not stern heavy.


  • What engines from those years to avoid, etc.?

For a Sea Ray specific model and years there are a limited selection of engines used. When you start looking at boats on the market, your choice of engine options will be even smaller. Be prepared that you might skip a model completely if you don't like the engine choice. It's not like you can pick a year/model then have a wide selection of engine choices.

  • What are the ballparks on annual maintenance, assuming 128 hours a month of operation. Maybe more if I use it as my getaway for teleworking.

I have used the 10% rule for planning in the past. Two factors that will impact that: age of the boat you are considering and your projected hours of use. I would expect maintenance to be higher, to what degree, will depend on how well the boat was maintained prior to you buying it.

When you estimate 128 hours a month, is that spending time on the boat? or cruising underway for 128 hours a month? Big difference, 128 engine hours a month is a very large number.


  • Somewhat subjective, but at what point do most diesels need a tear down? I don't want to be cruising across the Gulf current and find out my engines needed it "last month".

Very subjective, very dependent on how well the boat has been maintained prior in its life. Lots of people feel like a diesel should run 5,000 hours plus without a major. When you are doing the engine survey on a boat, talk to the person getting performing the engine survey.

  • Some have been freshwater only, or say "freshwater cooled" can those be sea going too?

Two different things. When boats are marketed as freshwater boats it is represented that the boat has not been previously exposed to the salt environment. Those boats may have a premium price.

You can choose whether or not you buy a freshwater only boat. The model and engine choice will dictate whether it has open/closed cooling.


Yes, either can be used in salt.

  • Some appear to have swim decks big enough for a PWC, yeah or nay on that?

Measure it. Determine how you would get the PWC on and off the boat.

  • Newbie question: I know there's engine access, but do the cockpit panels come off if you need to get to interior to remove fridge and loungers etc. for refit/update?

Question that is specific to the model you are looking at. Realize that it can be very difficult to move larger items off and on the boat. I recently replaced a dryer on our boat, there was a fair amount of disassembly to get the old one out and the new one in.

Additional comments on items you didn't ask about.

Several comments in this thread on insurance, you need to find out what you can insure. It's not about taking some lessons from friends. If the underwriters don't feel you have adequate experience they may impose a restriction on you operating the boat as captain for a year or two.

Comment about keeping the boat in Texas or Florida and cruising the Bahamas. Have you laid out the trip from Texas to the Bahamas? Have you thought about how many days it would take to make the trip? Would recommend that you put a stake in the ground early on for the initial location of the boat. You can always change your mind.

I do not subscribe to the thought of buy your second boat first. Until you spend time in a boat on the water ( more than a quick trip ) you really don't know what is important to you.

Just some random thoughts.
 
Several people have already mentioned the insurance issue… not only for the length as mentioned… but I’ve also heard that it is hard to get insurance for boats based in Florida these days. I would check with a broker on these issues.
 
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Agree on insurance. I had a Silverton 39MY (43 1/2 feet). I was astonished when I had trouble getting insurance on the 52DB.

Tim
 
I guess they are all different. We went from a 260DA to a 44DB and no questions asked. Insurance with Chubb.

Bennett
 

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