ZF Oil Sample Help

MikeZ0759

MikeZ0759

New Member
Jan 17, 2016
16
Lake Lanier GA
Boat Info
2007 Dodge Ram 2500 all hopped up
Engines
5.9 Cummins
Hello fellow Sea Ray Boaters. I’m in the process of selling my 98’ 400DB with 3116(350 hp) and 530 hours on it ( lake use only in ga from day 1) and I had some oil samples pulled for engines, transmissions and genset. Engines All came back well with 240hours on oils. Transmissions ( ZF220A-1 came back with “ abnormal wear metals in trans oil “ according to them. Does anyone know where to get the acceptable range for the oil samples on ZF transmissions? . Cat did the engines and they give the range and than my test results. On the trans oil it’s just results. Transmissions shift smooth, don’t slip, no shutter, no vibrations or noises. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 
Usually, they say something like "change fluids and retest later" Did they give you a color code for the warning. Yellow is a caution and change fluids and retest. Red is something serious.
 
The lab should have universal averages for the transmission. Your previous testing establishes unit averages for your 2 transmissions to compare the numbers going forward against.
Is this the first time testing? When was tranny oils changed last?
May have to change oil and retest later.
If you are looking for wear metal numbers, I could share with you the universal averages from Blackstone Labs for my 280A-1. Maybe someone that uses cat can suggest how to get the numbers from them.
The other thing to keep in mind is that most people that routinely test fluids do it annually and change it annually or maybe every two years (l’m guilty of that) so the universal averages can be quite low compared to a test that is on 3 or 4 year old oil with a lot more hours on it.
 
my3sons said:
The lab should have universal averages for the transmission. Your previous testing establishes unit averages for your 2 transmissions to compare the numbers going forward against.
Is this the first time testing? When was tranny oils changed last?
May have to change oil and retest later.
If you are looking for wear metal numbers, I could share with you the universal averages from Blackstone Labs for my 280A-1. Maybe someone that uses cat can suggest how to get the numbers from them.
The other thing to keep in mind is that most people that routinely test fluids do it annually and change it annually or maybe every two years (l’m guilty of that) so the universal averages can be quite low compared to a test that is on 3 or 4 year old oil with a lot more hours on it.
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Can you please share your oil sample report for the transmissions? MikeZ3481@gmail.com
 
I had the same thing come back for our hurth hsw800’s this past summer.

the issue is I had no idea when the fluid was changed last, if ever. CAT color coded ours yellow, and advised we change fluids and retest. Im going to pull a sample mid season next year and see what they show. Our test had high copper, but if the fluid has 500+ hours on it like I suspect it does I would expect the copper to be elevated compared fluid changes at regular intervals.
 
Strecker25 said:
I had the same thing come back for our hurth hsw800’s this past summer.

the issue is I had no idea when the fluid was changed last, if ever. CAT color coded ours yellow, and advised we change fluids and retest. Im going to pull a sample mid season next year and see what they show. Our test had high copper, but if the fluid has 500+ hours on it like I suspect it does I would expect the copper to be elevated compared fluid changes at regular intervals.
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That is exactly what I’m thinking. I will change mine this weekend but I’m not discounting the boat 20k from a sample on oil with a few years and 250-350 hours on it.
 
I think it is pretty common to see high copper readings on transmission oil. This is because the clutch disks are a copper alloy. Add to that fact the likelihood that the transmission maintenance has has beed neglected I think high copper readings might be expected.

I would change the transmission oil now, run the boat some then retest at the same lab. The results should be normal or very close to it. Then you can ask the surveyor to ammend his report to show that you did change the transmission, ran the boat and retested the gear oil
 
In the event of the worst car de scenario what is the cost to overhaul the 220A-1 transmissions , does any one know?
 
Copper is also indicative of a oil cooler issue which isn't that uncommon especially in salt water use but trending is important here. Regardless, @MikeZ0759 you are not giving anyone any fat to chew on - what did the analysis say? Do you have a trend (ie comparison to past analysis)? How does this gear's analysis compare to the other? Technique used to obtain the analysis plays a big roll in the results. Here are a few ideas -
Elevated chromium indicates roller bearing wear - this is the one to be concerned with and to watch carefully in a resample.
Aluminum shows indication of gear case wear which could indicate a bearing rotating in the case or the valve body wearing due to particulate.
Copper with water, sodium, and silicone is indicating the oil cooler is failing.
Elevated iron is wear in the gears or other ferrite based materials but is usually accompanied with bearing failure (high chromium) and/or corrosion due to water in the gear.
Lead and Tin in a ZF gear would be rare as these metals are usually for babbet oil film bearings which our gears do not use for shaft support. FYI - if you have babbet bearings and high lead and tin it will usually also be accompanied with elevated copper as copper is the bearing substrate.
This attached analysis is from one of my gears and is showing completely normal especially when I compare to all of the previous analysis.
upload_2020-11-19_6-16-36.png
 
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This is a freshwater only boat. Question, even if an oil cooler was going out, that would be very rare on a low hour freshwater boat; on both engines? No way. What would a new oil cooler cost? Nowhere near $20K.
 
Cocktail Time said:
This is a freshwater only boat. Question, even if an oil cooler was going out, that would be very rare on a low hour freshwater boat; on both engines? No way. What would a new oil cooler cost? Nowhere near $20K.
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A fellow 2001 400DB freshwater boater lost his transmission when the gear oil cooler suddenly failed a couple of years ago. It was a fresh water boat although it failed shortly after moving to salt. The pressure is on the oil side so all of the gear oil was almost immediately sucked out. Stuff then melted together and he ended up with a transmission permanently in forward gear. New one was $8500 and he and I did the removal and install. So no labor cost. ZF 280A. We discussed this with the transmission company and they said to treat the gear coolers as 10 year replaceable items. That they can fail any time thereafter even if they pressure test fine. So I replaced both of my 17 year old coolers immediately. So did all my boating buddies. $350 each.
 
ZZ13 said:
A fellow 2001 400DB freshwater boater lost his transmission when the gear oil cooler suddenly failed a couple of years ago. It was a fresh water boat although it failed shortly after moving to salt. The pressure is on the oil side so all of the gear oil was almost immediately sucked out. Stuff then melted together and he ended up with a transmission permanently in forward gear. New one was $8500 and he and I did the removal and install. So no labor cost. ZF 280A. We discussed this with the transmission company and they said to treat the gear coolers as 10 year replaceable items. That they can fail any time thereafter even if they pressure test fine. So I replaced both of my 17 year old coolers immediately. So did all my boating buddies. $350 each.
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Thanks, good info. I also have Cats with ZF trannys, so for $700 they are going on the short list.
 
My 2000 460DA was in the boatyard for bottom paint, new dripless shaft seals, repacking the rudders, new engine seacocks, fiberglass repair to the swim platform and some other minor stuff. It was out of the water for 29 days. Shortly after launch and on the way back to my marina, the starboard engine gear cooler started to leak. At first we thought it was a hose but soon discovered it was the hose attachment fitting that failed. To make a long story short, I checked the port engine gear cooler. It showed signs of a small leak and the attachment fitting completely failed as soon as it was touched. New fittings are being brazed as I write this and my mechanic has threatened to have the boat ready by the end of the week.
 
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