58 Sedan Bridge Official Thread

DIMMING THE OVERHEAD DINETTE LIGHTS?

Has anyone tried that?

We have dimmers on one set of our saloon lighting, and on one of the light sets over the galley. Both of those sets are AC circuits with low-voltage converters somewhere along the way... and the light fixtures take the same 24VDC LEDs we've used on the DC lighting everywhere else. The dimmers on these circuits are Vimar Idea-series #VM16557 available from Imtra.

Product Search | Marine Products & Accessories | Imtra
Vimar Marine Switches | Cover Plates & USB Outlets | Imtra

The two lights over the dinette are 24VDC... and I don't find a Vimar dimmer compatible with 24VDC circuitry, let alone one from their Idea series that we have throughout our boat.

I also don't know where the low-voltage converter is in the AC circuit... but presumably it happens somewhere before the dimmer? Which means the dimmer would receiving 24V? 24V-ish? Would that be 24VDC or 24VAC? Or...?

How's that AC-to-low-voltage thing work? I've read AC dimmers and DC lighting aren't compatible, but... how did Sea Ray get there from here?

EDIT: Actually, I've only guessed that the low voltage is 24VDC. Our LEDs are rated for 10-30VDC, so I guess it those dimming light fixtures could be 12V instead of 24V.

Ideas? (sort of a pun...)

-Chris
 
DIMMING THE OVERHEAD DINETTE LIGHTS?

Has anyone tried that?

We have dimmers on one set of our saloon lighting, and on one of the light sets over the galley. Both of those sets are AC circuits with low-voltage converters somewhere along the way... and the light fixtures take the same 24VDC LEDs we've used on the DC lighting everywhere else. The dimmers on these circuits are Vimar Idea-series #VM16557 available from Imtra.

Product Search | Marine Products & Accessories | Imtra
Vimar Marine Switches | Cover Plates & USB Outlets | Imtra

The two lights over the dinette are 24VDC... and I don't find a Vimar dimmer compatible with 24VDC circuitry, let alone one from their Idea series that we have throughout our boat.

I also don't know where the low-voltage converter is in the AC circuit... but presumably it happens somewhere before the dimmer? Which means the dimmer would receiving 24V? 24V-ish? Would that be 24VDC or 24VAC? Or...?

How's that AC-to-low-voltage thing work? I've read AC dimmers and DC lighting aren't compatible, but... how did Sea Ray get there from here?

Ideas? (sort of a pun...)

-Chris
There are three converters on the 52 - two behind the power panel (see pic - the round transformers on the right) and one in the MSR closet behind a panel. I suspect the ones for your solon are behind the power panel. The right way to dim these lamps is to do it from the AC side using a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) dimmer control. Does Vidmar have an AC PWM dimmer? Dono.... You will notice that the lighting switches sometimes make no sense on their arrangement - that is because the AC switches must be in separate boxes from the DC switches.
IMG_7118.jpg
 
There are three converters on the 52 - two behind the power panel (see pic - the round transformers on the right) and one in the MSR closet behind a panel.

Now that you mention it, we have a dimmer in the master stateroom, too...

Don't know if the Vimar #16557 dimmers are PWM or not; can't see any ref to that in their Product Sheet, either on their site or the Imtra site. They dim "OK" with our LEDs. Mostly it's a big step from full-on to half-dim, and then it'll dim a bit more after that. Sufficient for our purposes, at least.

And there aren't any Vimar DC dimmers listed, near as I can tell.

Sounds like I'd need to yutz with it too much -- to dim a DC circuit -- more than I care to. Fast easy switch replacement with no cosmetic issues, I can deal with it. Otherwise, I've got other problems to solve first...

What is the output of from the AC converters? 12V? 24V? AC? Or...? If it's 12-24 volts DC, not sure why the Vimar dimmers work. If it's AC, not sure why our 10-30VDC LEDs work...

???

I also haven't been able to imagine a reason why Sea Ray would have messed with the AC-to-low-voltage lighting anyway.

-Chris
 
I know I'm partial, but I sure think these are beautiful boats in all the various hull colors!

Carter, when you pulled up behind my house I always thought that your boat was one of the most beautiful boats ever. Just gorgeous lines! Nothing like it today that I've seen.
 
Carter, when you pulled up behind my house I always thought that your boat was one of the most beautiful boats ever. Just gorgeous lines! Nothing like it today that I've seen.
Thanks Mike, Your beautiful boat fit right in behind your fabulous house! Say Hi to Griselda for us - we miss you guys! Hope all at lakewood Ranch is well. We were lucky and survived Ian.
 
There are three converters on the 52 - two behind the power panel (see pic - the round transformers on the right) and one in the MSR closet behind a panel. I suspect the ones for your solon are behind the power panel. The right way to dim these lamps is to do it from the AC side using a Pulse Width Modulated (PWM) dimmer control. Does Vidmar have an AC PWM dimmer? Dono.... You will notice that the lighting switches sometimes make no sense on their arrangement - that is because the AC switches must be in separate boxes from the DC switches.
View attachment 139252
Tom - I truly hate to ask this and show my EE ignorance - can you just use a 220V Vimar dimmer on a 24V DC circuit?

There - I've done it - I'm a dumb @ss with DC-AC, AC-DC.

Just ask me to design a converging/diverging turbine exhaust
 
DIMMING THE OVERHEAD DINETTE LIGHTS?

Has anyone tried that?

We have dimmers on one set of our saloon lighting, and on one of the light sets over the galley. Both of those sets are AC circuits with low-voltage converters somewhere along the way... and the light fixtures take the same 24VDC LEDs we've used on the DC lighting everywhere else. The dimmers on these circuits are Vimar Idea-series #VM16557 available from Imtra.

Product Search | Marine Products & Accessories | Imtra
Vimar Marine Switches | Cover Plates & USB Outlets | Imtra

The two lights over the dinette are 24VDC... and I don't find a Vimar dimmer compatible with 24VDC circuitry, let alone one from their Idea series that we have throughout our boat.

I also don't know where the low-voltage converter is in the AC circuit... but presumably it happens somewhere before the dimmer? Which means the dimmer would receiving 24V? 24V-ish? Would that be 24VDC or 24VAC? Or...?

How's that AC-to-low-voltage thing work? I've read AC dimmers and DC lighting aren't compatible, but... how did Sea Ray get there from here?

EDIT: Actually, I've only guessed that the low voltage is 24VDC. Our LEDs are rated for 10-30VDC, so I guess it those dimming light fixtures could be 12V instead of 24V.

Ideas? (sort of a pun...)

-Chris
Chris - I'm with you - I want to dim the Dinette 24V DC lights!! Wouldn't that make a huge difference?
 
Tom - I truly hate to ask this and show my EE ignorance - can you just use a 220V Vimar dimmer on a 24V DC circuit?

There - I've done it - I'm a dumb @ss with DC-AC, AC-DC.

Just ask me to design a converging/diverging turbine exhaust
It seems all of the Vidmar dimmers are for incandescent lighting which is code for not Pulse Width Modulation that LED lighting needs. These dimmers vary the voltage rather than chop up the voltage into smaller or larger segments to dim. Anyhow the lighting systems on your boats are both powered by 120 VAC (maybe 240 VAC) and 24 VDC. The 120/240 VAC lighting is stepped down using a transformer and possibly rectified to DC but I''m not sure about that. You could add a variable voltage dimmer on the 120/240 lighting circuit and the transformer will appropriately reduce the output voltage and suitably dimming the OEM halogen lighting.
 
It seems all of the Vidmar dimmers are for incandescent lighting which is code for not Pulse Width Modulation that LED lighting needs. These dimmers vary the voltage rather than chop up the voltage into smaller or larger segments to dim. Anyhow the lighting systems on your boats are both powered by 120 VAC (maybe 240 VAC) and 24 VDC. The 120/240 VAC lighting is stepped down using a transformer and possibly rectified to DC but I''m not sure about that. You could add a variable voltage dimmer on the 120/240 lighting circuit and the transformer will appropriately reduce the output voltage and suitably dimming the OEM halogen lighting.

I can answer about the AC starting voltage; our AC lighting/outlet circuits are 120V. Since step-down lighting happens before the dimmers... the Vimar dimmers must be working on a low voltage of some sort... (Yes?)

Since the LEDs that we have working in those circuits are rated for 10-30VDC, is it correct to assume the step-down output has been converted to DC?

Following that, is it correct to assume the Vimar dimmers are compatible (enough) with DC?

If the Vimar dimmers are not PWM... and work on voltage... and seem to be semi-OK (enough) with our current 10-30VDC LEDs... does that suggest the Vimar dimmers might work on a native 24VDC circuit too? (The lights we're thinking about dimming are over the dinette, 24VDC circuit... not the stepped-down AC.)

Some of that might speak to why our "dimmed" LEDs sort of go from all-on to half-on and then dim some more after that...

???

-Chris
 
I can answer about the AC starting voltage; our AC lighting/outlet circuits are 120V. Since step-down lighting happens before the dimmers... the Vimar dimmers must be working on a low voltage of some sort... (Yes?)


Since the LEDs that we have working in those circuits are rated for 10-30VDC, is it correct to assume the step-down output has been converted to DC?


Following that, is it correct to assume the Vimar dimmers are compatible (enough) with DC?


If the Vimar dimmers are not PWM... and work on voltage... and seem to be semi-OK (enough) with our current 10-30VDC LEDs... does that suggest the Vimar dimmers might work on a native 24VDC circuit too? (The lights we're thinking about dimming are over the dinette, 24VDC circuit... not the stepped-down AC.)


Some of that might speak to why our "dimmed" LEDs sort of go from all-on to half-on and then dim some more after that...

???

-Chris
I can answer about the AC starting voltage; our AC lighting/outlet circuits are 120V. Since step-down lighting happens before the dimmers... the Vimar dimmers must be working on a low voltage of some sort... (Yes?)
I think you will find the Vimar dimmers are only for AC 120 and 230 (50hz) volts in their Idea product range.

Since the LEDs that we have working in those circuits are rated for 10-30VDC, is it correct to assume the step-down output has been converted to DC?
That's rational. Some LED's have their own rectifier circuitry and can operate connected to AC power. But I suspect the circuitry is a bit different - see below.

Following that, is it correct to assume the Vimar dimmers are compatible (enough) with DC?
Not from what I know in the Vimar Idea products.

If the Vimar dimmers are not PWM... and work on voltage... and seem to be semi-OK (enough) with our current 10-30VDC LEDs... does that suggest the Vimar dimmers might work on a native 24VDC circuit too? (The lights we're thinking about dimming are over the dinette, 24VDC circuit... not the stepped-down AC.)
I think that is a pretty bold assumption. I suspect the Vimar switch is simply a momentary push switch and it operates a separate PWM dimmer module. I have PWM dimmer modules on the bridge and they are very coarse in the dimming - not optimal. IMTRA makes a dimming module that, from what I hear, is pretty good. Mine are made by Blue Sea Systems.

Some of that might speak to why our "dimmed" LEDs sort of go from all-on to half-on and then dim some more after that...
 
I think that is a pretty bold assumption. I suspect the Vimar switch is simply a momentary push switch and it operates a separate PWM dimmer module. I have PWM dimmer modules on the bridge and they are very coarse in the dimming - not optimal. IMTRA makes a dimming module that, from what I hear, is pretty good. Mine are made by Blue Sea Systems.

I could only go by the Vimar/Imtra description: Dimmer: 120V, 30-500W, 30-300VA, Grey, illuminable, Idea.

(Idea series)

And the parts manual doesn't seem to link these switches to separate dimmers. That I can find...

Mostly I've been thinking that what works... 120VAC circuits with 10-30VDC LEDs, with dimmers... shouldn't. But does.

-Chris
 
I could only go by the Vimar/Imtra description: Dimmer: 120V, 30-500W, 30-300VA, Grey, illuminable, Idea.

(Idea series)

And the parts manual doesn't seem to link these switches to separate dimmers. That I can find...

Mostly I've been thinking that what works... 120VAC circuits with 10-30VDC LEDs, with dimmers... shouldn't. But does.

-Chris
what I'm talking about is all low DC voltage (12/24 volts). ie, a low voltage Vimar momentary up/down switch controlling a separate dimmer module.
What we don't know is if the step-down transformer outputs AC or DC. With that said every lamp on my boat is LED; I don't have any issues whatsoever on those that are powered by the 120 volt system driven through those transformers.
 
what I'm talking about is all low DC voltage (12/24 volts). ie, a low voltage Vimar momentary up/down switch controlling a separate dimmer module.

Yep... I can't find any evidence of that in the Parts Manual, though. And haven't tried hands-on examination. Nor do I find any low voltage Vimar switches -- and that look like our "dimmers" -- in their (or Imtra's) catalog.


What we don't know is if the step-down transformer outputs AC or DC. With that said every lamp on my boat is LED; I don't have any issues whatsoever on those that are powered by the 120 volt system driven through those transformers.

Ditto, almost. There are a few bridge/cockpit bulbs I haven't replaced yet... but we don't use those much anyway so it hasn't been a high priority to replace en masse... only replaced the ones that were already burned out.

-Chris
 
Yep... I can't find any evidence of that in the Parts Manual, though. And haven't tried hands-on examination. Nor do I find any low voltage Vimar switches -- and that look like our "dimmers" -- in their (or Imtra's) catalog.




Ditto, almost. There are a few bridge/cockpit bulbs I haven't replaced yet... but we don't use those much anyway so it hasn't been a high priority to replace en masse... only replaced the ones that were already burned out.

-Chris
From a "switch" perspective the Vimar can support both AC and DC. It's those Vimar products that have electronic components like dimmers and timers that must be installed in the correct power supply.
 
I'd forgotten the check electrical schematics. For other owners who might be following, Figs 6.34.1, 6.34.2, 6.35.1, 6.59.1, and 6.63.1 apply.

6.59.1 is Drawing No. 09-631 (1 of 2) shows a "24VDC Block Lighting" box, Plug 57, 16-gauge BLU and BLK wires, and "ref dwg 09-602". I don't find a Drawing 09-0602 in the Owner's Manual. I think this means the transformer is indeed turning the low voltage circuits into 24VDC.

???

6.63.1 is Drawing No. 09-640 Rev 1 and comes closest to the switch issues. On the left side of the drawing, there are separate boxes for these: "Galley Overhead/Valance LT Switch" connected to a separate "Galley Valance Light Transformer" and in turn, the "Galley Valance LVAC Lights." This is the circuit the Vimar dimmer (or whatever it is) controls.

There's another similar set for "Galley Overhead/Valance LT Switch" connected to a separate "Galley Overhead LT Transformer" and in turn, the "Galley Overhead LVAC Lights." This circuit is on a simple ON/OFF switch, a different product from within the Vimar Idea series.

On the right side of the drawing, there's also some similar info for the master stateroom circuits.

The blocks in the schematic show the switch before the transformer. Does that confirm the switch is working on AC voltage? And then the transformer does its 120VAC-to-24VDC thing after that? Which would 'splain why our 10-30VDC LEDs work?

The schematic implies the transformer might be somewhere nearer the switch... maybe?

-Chris
 
You smart guys have truly lost me...I guess after my back surgeries this week and next, I've got to find the online EE courses and go "back to school"!

I get to spend tomorrow and Friday at the Bonati Spine Institute for L2-3, then next Tues/Wed/Thurs for L 3-4, L 4-5, and L5 -S1. Laser surgeries - out patient. I'm crippled up with sciatica.

My Orthopedic surgeon wanted three days in hospital, 90 day recovery wearing a $1000 back brace then back in for fusions - same recovery.
 
I get to spend tomorrow and Friday at the Bonati Spine Institute for L2-3, then next Tues/Wed/Thurs for L 3-4, L 4-5, and L5 -S1. Laser surgeries - out patient. I'm crippled up with sciatica.

My Orthopedic surgeon wanted three days in hospital, 90 day recovery wearing a $1000 back brace then back in for fusions - same recovery.

Good grief, sorry to hear that Carter! Hope it all goes well and you start seeing improvement!

-Chris
 
Chris - I'm with you - I want to dim the Dinette 24V DC lights!! Wouldn't that make a huge difference?

Carter, from what I'm learning and from what Tom @ttmott has said...

It sounds like dimming the dinette lights is going to mean 1) changing the switch and 2) installing a DC PWM dimmer module somewhere in line. Nothing in the Vimar Idea series -- i.e., that would match the decor -- will work, either by itself or in conjuction with a dimmer module.

There's a DC dimmer module controlling lights on the bridge. Don't (yet) know where, what brand/model, etc. but there's probably no need to match brand/model anyway. Maybe it's really more of a matter of where to put it, in line, without much regard to brand/model other than size.

Don't know what brands or types of switches (potentiometer, aka POT) might fit. The bridge activators are Blue Sea (probably, maybe Carling manufacture) rocker switches, not like the little round POT on our dimmable galley and saloon lights. I suspect the type of switch (rocker, knob, whatever) doesn't matter much; I'd suspect it'll be more of a decor question, and being able to mount the thing inside the current Vimar Idea frame... or maybe replace the Vimar frame altogether. (I don't do "decor" -- gotta look good -- things all that well...).

I think this is going to the bottom of my priority list for a while... while I ruminate on it some more...

Unless some other kind 58DB soul has already solved it and chimes in here... :)

-Chris
 
Carter, from what I'm learning and from what Tom @ttmott has said...

It sounds like dimming the dinette lights is going to mean 1) changing the switch and 2) installing a DC PWM dimmer module somewhere in line. Nothing in the Vimar Idea series -- i.e., that would match the decor -- will work, either by itself or in conjuction with a dimmer module.

There's a DC dimmer module controlling lights on the bridge. Don't (yet) know where, what brand/model, etc. but there's probably no need to match brand/model anyway. Maybe it's really more of a matter of where to put it, in line, without much regard to brand/model other than size.

Don't know what brands or types of switches (potentiometer, aka POT) might fit. The bridge activators are Blue Sea (probably, maybe Carling manufacture) rocker switches, not like the little round POT on our dimmable galley and saloon lights. I suspect the type of switch (rocker, knob, whatever) doesn't matter much; I'd suspect it'll be more of a decor question, and being able to mount the thing inside the current Vimar Idea frame... or maybe replace the Vimar frame altogether. (I don't do "decor" -- gotta look good -- things all that well...).

I think this is going to the bottom of my priority list for a while... while I ruminate on it some more...

Unless some other kind 58DB soul has already solved it and chimes in here... :)

-Chris
The two little boxes in the upper part of this picture are dimmer modules. One is a Blue Sea Systems for the bridge overhead lights and the other is for the dash lighting.
If you can verify the voltage output of those transformers (verify voltage and DC or AC) you can easily adapt a dimmer module. You would HAVE to add another up and down Vimar momentary switch to control the module.
Or get rid of the AC power all together for those lights and use all DC with a dimmer module. Then replace the light switch with the up and down momentary switch.
IMG_4197.jpg
 
The two little boxes in the upper part of this picture are dimmer modules. One is a Blue Sea Systems for the bridge overhead lights and the other is for the dash lighting.

Thanks, that'll help me identify 'em whenever I get around to trying to find ours.


If you can verify the voltage output of those transformers (verify voltage and DC or AC) you can easily adapt a dimmer module. You would HAVE to add another up and down Vimar momentary switch to control the module.
Or get rid of the AC power all together for those lights and use all DC with a dimmer module. Then replace the light switch with the up and down momentary switch.

Changing the AC dimmer lights to DC would require fishing wire from saloon port aft, across the doorway and then to galley forward starboard. Ugh.

I'll have to rummage around to see if there's a logical -- and easy -- place to insert a DC dimmer somewhere along the wiring path for the dinette overhead circuit (port, forward) we're thinking about. Probably easier. (Although not necessarily easy, nor easy enough to make it worth the effort.)

Have to see. In the meantime, I've got about 70 other items on my punch list, maybe about 40 of which are non-discretionary. :(

-Chris
 

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