Transmission stuck need ideas

[Riptide III]

Leaving the Anchorage today I did a dumb thing. I put the boat in gear and started driving off I reach 2250 RPMs and the boat was going slow (about 13kts) I looked down and noticed my starboard transmission lever was not all the way forward. Before my brain was engaged my hand reached for the starboard lever and put it in gear. There was kind of a pop sound not real loud. Everything worked fine for the next 30 minutes till I got to the dock. When I went to put the boat in neutral it kept moving forward. When I put it in reverse it started to kill the motor.
The boat goes forward in forward the boat goes forward in neutral and then reverse it bogs the engine down and tries to stall it. Looking for ideas thank you

 

[dtfeld]

What gear and mechanical linkage or electrical?

These are hydraulically actuated regardless, so could be a linkage. That might explain the “pop”

The worst case, at that RPM, you might have generated enough heat to warp the plates, keeping it in FWD, but can’t really explain the pop, if this is the issue.

 

[Strecker25]

Also try and turn the propshaft by hand with the engine off. If it spins freely it probably means the transmission is engaging with the pump generating clutch pressure. If you can’t turn it or its very difficult then the plates might be fused or warped meaning you’re looking at a rebuild. Hope that’s not the case…

 

[Riptide III]

What gear and mechanical linkage or electrical?

These are hydraulically actuated regardless, so could be a linkage. That might explain the “pop”

The worst case, at that RPM, you might have generated enough heat to warp the plates, keeping it in FWD, but can’t really explain the pop, if this is the issue.

Hurth v drive. It wasn’t really a pop as it was more just the slam of engaging the tranny at 2250 rpms

 

[dtfeld]

I think Ryan has the right idea trying to turn the prop shaft by hand with the engine off.

2250 is pretty aggressive, and above the stated limit, but I wouldn't expect a single engagement to cause catastrophic damage unless there was something already on the edge inside the tranny.

 

[Riptide III]

Started pulling it today. Ordered two motor mounts. Old ones are rusted pretty badly. Boat comes out tomorrow. I am now looking for ideas on how to block motor when tranny is out. I think the shaft log is in the way to do it from underneath. My idea is to run a 2x8 fore and aft along the deck on each side of the engine hatch to spread the load. Stack a few blocks on those then run a 4x4 or 6x6 and chain cross the top of the engine and use it to hold that end of the engine up by the lifting eye.
Please help me fine tune this or give me a better idea

 

[Strecker25]

Started pulling it today. Ordered two motor mounts. Old ones are rusted pretty badly. Boat comes out tomorrow. I am now looking for ideas on how to block motor when tranny is out. I think the shaft log is in the way to do it from underneath. My idea is to run a 2x8 fore and aft along the deck on each side of the engine hatch to spread the load. Stack a few blocks on those then run a 4x4 or 6x6 and chain cross the top of the engine and use it to hold that end of the engine up by the lifting eye.
Please help me fine tune this or give me a better idea

That sounds like it would work. Just curious though, the yard can’t stick it somewhere? You could do some nice detailing and cleaning with it out. Check it for leaks around the oil pan too, how’s the time

what was confirmation the trans is toast? Is it fused in gear?

 

[marty51]

Believe that I ran a piece of 2-3" steel tube from stringer to stringer. It held the weight fine.

 

[Riptide III]

Yes clutch plates appear to be fused
I considered taking it out but honestly just want to get it in and out as fast as possible. As it is I will be busy replacing he plates so there will be no down time for area beautification.

 

[Strecker25]

Yes clutch plates appear to be fused
I considered taking it out but honestly just want to get it in and out as fast as possible. As it is I will be busy replacing he plates so there will be no down time for area beautification.

i hear you. Good luck man

 

[Saverio]

Sorry to hear
are you going to rebuild it yourself?

 

[Riptide III]

Believe that I ran a piece of 2-3" steel tube from stringer to stringer. It held the weight fine.

 

[Riptide III]

Both mine and my friends stbd transmissions went out. His is on blocks 2 feet away from mine. I spent today pulling his and mine. They should both be out by tomorrow am. There is a local shop that rebuilds them and Dynos them. They are booked solid. If he can’t get me in right away, then yes I will rebuild mine, but not my friends.

 

[ttmott]

Both mine and my friends stbd transmissions went out. His is on blocks 2 feet away from mine. I spent today pulling his and mine. They should both be out by tomorrow am. There is a local shop that rebuilds them and Dynos them. They are booked solid. If he can’t get me in right away, then yes I will rebuild mine, but not my friends.

New bearings with clutches and plates?
As a minimum I'd take a close look at the countershaft, it's bearings, and the case where it mounts.
The big weakness in the HSW800 is the countershaft case reinforcements. The Port gears load the countershaft in forward and there are quite a few failures. Even though this is the Starboard gear I'd still focus on this area.
With the clutches warped there was a lot of heat and no doubt sheading of material and metallic particles. I don't think you can clean the case and hydraulic circuits well enough before reassembly. Consider taking the case halves to your local engine rebuilder and have it cleaned in their block cleaner. Then, with a couple gallons of mineral spirits and sprayer detail it out with pipe cleaners and tooth brushes. These are no less critical for cleanliness than your car's automatic transmission.

 

[fwebster]

My port transmission started making noise at 800 hours. The noise began as a "rattle" and gradually got worse to the point that I knew something in the gear. box was loose. I changed the fluid and strained it thru a filter and was both shocked and amazed at how much varied metal shavings were in the ATF. a lot of aluminum in particles from as big a a pencil eraser down to microscopic debris that was hard to see with the naked eye. There was also ferrous metal (bearings/shafting) and some brass from bearing retainers. There was no way I would have rebuilt that transmission since I couldn't see how on earth we could get all the metal filings out of t he transmission case. Rebuilders were quick to offer a warranty (90 days!) but with all the labor and yard cost for the haul-out, laydays while waiting on the rebuild shop, forklift charges, etc. I decided to try to find a new transmission.

The service manager at our marina had a contact at ZF and they happened to have a new ZF-85-IV of the correct ratio on the shelf.

We got a screaming deal on the new transmission and it is the replacement for the 80-IV, which was the first new and improved version of the Hurth HSW 800 with enhanced mounting for the countershaft mounts. The ZF-85-IV is even stronger than the ZF-80. I would rethink rebuilding one of the Hurth HSW-800 gears because of the design flaw that is s built in and because of the difficulty of cleaning the gear case of metal filings that are very likely there.

The other advantage for me was time. We hauled the boat out on Thursday morning @ 7:15, had the old transmission removed and on the floor in the shop at the marina at 9:00AM. I painted the starter, the new transmission and the bell housing with automotive urethane after lunch and we reinstalled the transmission in the boat Friday and splashed her before noon on Friday and went boating.

 

[mrsrobinson]

Reading this thread I feel your pain, I've actually done that myself a few times at lower RPMs but was always concerned I did damage.

I read this thread after just posting mine about the difference in the noise levels between the two transmissions.

 

[techmitch]

Both mine and my friends stbd transmissions went out. His is on blocks 2 feet away from mine. I spent today pulling his and mine. They should both be out by tomorrow am. There is a local shop that rebuilds them and Dynos them. They are booked solid. If he can’t get me in right away, then yes I will rebuild mine, but not my friends.

New bearings with clutches and plates?
As a minimum I'd take a close look at the countershaft, it's bearings, and the case where it mounts.
The big weakness in the HSW800 is the countershaft case reinforcements. The Port gears load the countershaft in forward and there are quite a few failures. Even though this is the Starboard gear I'd still focus on this area.
With the clutches warped there was a lot of heat and no doubt sheading of material and metallic particles. I don't think you can clean the case and hydraulic circuits well enough before reassembly. Consider taking the case halves to your local engine rebuilder and have it cleaned in their block cleaner. Then, with a couple gallons of mineral spirits and sprayer detail it out with pipe cleaners and tooth brushes. These are no less critical for cleanliness than your car's automatic transmission.

My port transmission started making noise at 800 hours. The noise began as a "rattle" and gradually got worse to the point that I knew something in the gear. box was loose. I changed the fluid and strained it thru a filter and was both shocked and amazed at how much varied metal shavings were in the ATF. a lot of aluminum in particles from as big a a pencil eraser down to microscopic debris that was hard to see with the naked eye. There was also ferrous metal (bearings/shafting) and some brass from bearing retainers. There was no way I would have rebuilt that transmission since I couldn't see how on earth we could get all the metal filings out of t he transmission case. Rebuilders were quick to offer a warranty (90 days!) but with all the labor and yard cost for the haul-out, laydays while waiting on the rebuild shop, forklift charges, etc. I decided to try to find a new transmission.

The service manager at our marina had a contact at ZF and they happened to have a new ZF-85-IV of the correct ratio on the shelf.

We got a screaming deal on the new transmission and it is the replacement for the 80-IV, which was the first new and improved version of the Hurth HSW 800 with enhanced mounting for the countershaft mounts. The ZF-85-IV is even stronger than the ZF-80. I would rethink rebuilding one of the Hurth HSW-800 gears because of the design flaw that is s built in and because of the difficulty of cleaning the gear case of metal filings that are very likely there.

The other advantage for me was time. We hauled the boat out on Thursday morning @ 7:15, had the old transmission removed and on the floor in the shop at the marina at 9:00AM. I painted the starter, the new transmission and the bell housing with automotive urethane after lunch and we reinstalled the transmission in the boat Friday and splashed her before noon on Friday and went boating.

Even a total tear down/dissemble and cleaning and inspection (in a far better machine than this one https://www.standardautoequip.com/product-page/stw-500-30) and then overhaul (Replacement of all bearings, clutches, seals, any damaged or even out of spec. hard parts) will not yield the expected results that one will benefit from upgrading to the ZF-85-IV as @fwebster posted. As he said it is well worth the investment... X 10.
And far more cost effective.

 

[ttmott]

Reading this thread I feel your pain, I've actually done that myself a few times at lower RPMs but was always concerned I did damage.

I read this thread after just posting mine about the difference in the noise levels between the two transmissions.

Typically dropping it in gear above idle isn't that hard on a healthy gear. You wouldn't want to do that as a practice, however. @Riptide III was operating the gear with the cable actuated shifters partially engaged. This allowed hydraulic pressure to bleed off and not compress the clutch packs adequately allowing slippage. Obviously, the slipping clutch packs generated quite a bit of heat and eventually permanently warped the clutches and plates. So, now he has a situation where the forward clutch pack is engaged all of the time due to the warped clutch assembly regardless where the gear lever is. Then when he put it in reverse and killed the engine which essentially locks up the gear in forward and reverse at the same time the diagnosis was complete....
Always always fully engage the shift levers.

 

[bfernald0]

Yes clutch plates appear to be fused
I considered taking it out but honestly just want to get it in and out as fast as possible. As it is I will be busy replacing he plates so there will be no down time for area beautification.

Call these guys. When my 63 iv zf transmission went out, they shipped me a brand new 68 iv to Los Angeles, no tax, for about $1500 less than I could get one locally. Make sure they paint it. These things come from the factory with bare aluminum.

www.marinegears.com

 

[Riptide III]

Typically dropping it in gear above idle isn't that hard on a healthy gear. You wouldn't want to do that as a practice, however. @Riptide III was operating the gear with the cable actuated shifters partially engaged. This allowed hydraulic pressure to bleed off and not compress the clutch packs adequately allowing slippage. Obviously, the slipping clutch packs generated quite a bit of heat and eventually permanently warped the clutches and plates. So, now he has a situation where the forward clutch pack is engaged all of the time due to the warped clutch assembly regardless where the gear lever is. Then when he put it in reverse and killed the engine which essentially locks up the gear in forward and reverse at the same time the diagnosis was complete....
Always always fully engage the shift levers.

This is exactly, 100% correct!