Engine Room Air Pressure, Ventilation, and Engine Performance

@ttmott Tom I was looking at the Maretron CLM100, their current loop monitor and they also have a 0-1.5 PSI sensors, 0-3,0-5 etc. Not sure if that is sensitive enough but maybe the CLM can work with the sensor you referenced earlier in this thread. https://www.maretron.com/products/clm100.php
 
@ttmott Tom I was looking at the Maretron CLM100, their current loop monitor and they also have a 0-1.5 PSI sensors, 0-3,0-5 etc. Not sure if that is sensitive enough but maybe the CLM can work with the sensor you referenced earlier in this thread. https://www.maretron.com/products/clm100.php
It will work but what we need is to record the data. I'm looking for a pre-owned Racepak Data Logger that I can pick up cheap. It has the capability for 100 samples per second and the types of channels needed for this little project.
 
It will work but what we need is to record the data. I'm looking for a pre-owned Racepak Data Logger that I can pick up cheap. It has the capability for 100 samples per second and the types of channels needed for this little project.

So it's N2K, there are many ways to record that data. The best way would be an Actisense NGT-1 N2K to USB and then use their data reader which also records to a file.
 
So it's N2K, there are many ways to record that data. The best way would be an Actisense NGT-1 N2K to USB and then use their data reader which also records to a file.
One of these? I have it sitting in a box as it came out with my Siren Marine alarm upgrade. The new alarm has N2K built in so I have no use for this. If either of you want to play with it let me know and I will gladly ship it to you.
 

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One of these? I have it sitting in a box as it came out with my Siren Marine alarm upgrade. The new alarm has N2K built in so I have no use for this. If either of you want to play with it let me know and I will gladly ship it to you.

Thanks Grant, I have one for my EMU-1's, but perhaps Tom could get started with that.

Edit: Thats the MCT, did it come with the USB adapter cable?

But it would have the USB end on it -
NGT1A-400cabu.jpg
 
Thanks Grant, I have one for my EMU-1's, but perhaps Tom could get started with that.

Edit: Thats the MCT, did it come with the USB adapter cable?

But it would have the USB end on it -
NGT1A-400cabu.jpg
We can obtain data but the resolution for what we need won't be there. The challenge is to measure engine room air pressure and temperature over a very small range using pressure transducers with comparatively large ranges. Like Maretron I think these are 8 bit devices which will net very coarse "step function" data. We can always "smooth" the graph when displaying and overlaying data but now we are inventing data. If, for example you look at the Maretron DSM in graph mode on data like RPM you will see not a smooth transitioning graph but a series of steps as RPM goes up and down. The range of the RPM is broken up into segments corresponding upon the bit count of the device. For what we are trying to do that will not be data we can use. The second critical piece of this is the data rate - one or ten samples per second will not give us the resolution needed. We will need in the range of 100 samples per second minimum. Most affordable (less than 1BB) data loggers are 16 bit with averaging functions and sample rates between 10 and 100,000 SPS depending upon how large the memory is. Sample rate and number of channels are directly proportional to memory and recording time. There are a lot of old cheap but good data loggers out there but the software isn't included.....
 
The last part is converting the data to something we can read and interpret. For small data sessions a .txt file is suitable and we can directly put that into Excel and overlay it. When we get into multiple channels and high sample rates or worse yet different sample rates the .txt files get unwieldly and difficult to manipulate. This is where the data logger software comes in.
 
A little story on one of my projects and obtaining data to validate the analysis.
Sound suppression is a big deal on launch pads. Typically water is injected into the engine exhaust plume and the pad structures are constructed to attenuate the sound. It is an incredibly dynamic environment. Our designs is we fire nitrogen into large tanks filled with water and that water is flowed at high rates through nozzles around the engine exhaust duct. The valves that fire the nitrogen are 8-inch ball valves and we open them in around 4 milliseconds. The entire event flowing 40,000 gallons of water is over in around 12 seconds. We need to measure and record gas pressure, water pressure, valve opening time, nozzle water flow and pressure, tank water level. On top of all this we have four or five channels of video feed to view the test. I think we had over 60 channels of 128 bid data recording at 10,000 SPS. Yet still we had holes in the data we had to interpret to overlay the system analysis to ensure the system performed as expected.
 
We can obtain data but the resolution for what we need won't be there. The challenge is to measure engine room air pressure and temperature over a very small range using pressure transducers with comparatively large ranges. Like Maretron I think these are 8 bit devices which will net very coarse "step function" data. We can always "smooth" the graph when displaying and overlaying data but now we are inventing data. If, for example you look at the Maretron DSM in graph mode on data like RPM you will see not a smooth transitioning graph but a series of steps as RPM goes up and down. The range of the RPM is broken up into segments corresponding upon the bit count of the device. For what we are trying to do that will not be data we can use. The second critical piece of this is the data rate - one or ten samples per second will not give us the resolution needed. We will need in the range of 100 samples per second minimum. Most affordable (less than 1BB) data loggers are 16 bit with averaging functions and sample rates between 10 and 100,000 SPS depending upon how large the memory is. Sample rate and number of channels are directly proportional to memory and recording time. There are a lot of old cheap but good data loggers out there but the software isn't included.....

So I am at a loss as to why you think that depth of resolution is needed to monitor air pressure in the engine room? The sensor will be the deciding factor as to how accurate the data point is, the current loop reading is just one point in time. I don't think you need more then 8bit resolution for that. I believe you can set the transmit duration as low as 100ms or 10 samples per second. That data can then be saved to a file and Excel can be used to interpolate that data. For finding the relative air pressure compared to true atmosphere should be pretty simple, unless your planning on measuring the actual pressure at the turbo intake?
 
So I am at a loss as to why you think that depth of resolution is needed to monitor air pressure in the engine room? The sensor will be the deciding factor as to how accurate the data point is, the current loop reading is just one point in time. I don't think you need more then 8bit resolution for that. I believe you can set the transmit duration as low as 100ms or 10 samples per second. That data can then be saved to a file and Excel can be used to interpolate that data. For finding the relative air pressure compared to true atmosphere should be pretty simple, unless your planning on measuring the actual pressure at the turbo intake?
The sensor other than the range of the sensor and using a current loop isn't the issue (up to the point to where external noise becomes the interfering factor). Those values are continuous and seamless. It is the acquisition of the data that is the issue. Let's say you have a 0 to 5 PSIG sensor and you are interested in 1 to 1.5 PSIG range. Acquiring that data is in digital segments obtained at a sample rate. If you have an 8-bit acquisition system then that range (0 to 5 psig) is divided into 8 segments or 0.625 psi per segment. Now as we are interested in 1 to 1.5 psig you only have around two steps for the entire range of interest. Software can smooth and interpolate but it is not enough data point resolution to get what we need. There are advanced features in some of the higher end DAS where a desired range of an instrument can be the totalized input and that range can be broken down into the resolution of the recorder.
 
The sensor other than the range of the sensor and using a current loop isn't the issue (up to the point to where external noise becomes the interfering factor). Those values are continuous and seamless. It is the acquisition of the data that is the issue. Let's say you have a 0 to 5 PSIG sensor and you are interested in 1 to 1.5 PSIG range. Acquiring that data is in digital segments obtained at a sample rate. If you have an 8-bit acquisition system then that range (0 to 5 psig) is divided into 8 segments or 0.625 psi per segment. Now as we are interested in 1 to 1.5 psig you only have around two steps for the entire range of interest. Software can smooth and interpolate but it is not enough data point resolution to get what we need. There are advanced features in some of the higher end DAS where a desired range of an instrument can be the totalized input and that range can be broken down into the resolution of the recorder.

Great explanation, I understand all that however. I just don't see the need for that resolution for what is trying to be accomplished here. What exactly are you looking for? I thought you just waned to confirm the difference in air pressure running at cruise verse engines off? You just need to see the max difference to confirm the need to add additional vent space. I would think running at cruise for five minutes would provide enough data to see what it needed.

I get the need for high resolution sampling if you are trying to tune a race engine or something like that. I would think this be more then enough to verify this. But to your point if you want that kind of accuracy it's going to cost you for sure.
 
The factors in play are: engine RPM/Load, engine room temperature, differential pressure between an external static pitot and pressure in the engine room. The RPM/Load determines the effect the engines have on the room pressure. The engine room temperature determines the actual engine room pressure as a differential to outside pressure/temperature; you cannot determine pressure without temperature - that is your air density. The static outside pressure differential to the engine room is the drop in pressure through the boat. The air density is what the engine's performance is dependent. These factors overlaid are the conditional assessment to see what the performance of the boat's air intake system is. Now if your data shows only two or three range steps due to the acquisition limitations then the data has little use. The only factor not in the mix is the dew point of the air (measured in grains of water) but for this it would have a negligible effect as we would assume the same outside as in the engine room.
 
Tom,

I'm curious what your hypothesis is. If the air vents are inadequate what readings do you expect to see?
 
Tom,

I'm curious what your hypothesis is. If the air vents are inadequate what readings do you expect to see?
The hypothesis is as engine load increases differential in air density between outside and in the engine room increases. This indicates and validates what some have stated as the engine room ventilation on some of our boats is inadequate. Consequently, the engine ECM's will dial back fuel and as a result power output will be below expectations.
The manifold pressure which the ECM measures is directly proportional to the atmospheric pressure in the engine room (the turbocharger available inlet pressure vs it's discharge pressure). The density calcs through the turbo and aftercooler including the intake manifold get complex but in general the less oxygen available in the engine room the less is available in the engine.
In short, if the engine's require 2000 standard cubic feet of air per minute and the boat delivers less we will have performance issues.
 
... In short, if the engine's require 2000 standard cubic feet of air per minute and the boat delivers less we will have performance issues.

So the first step is to calculate the available air through each vent, right? Assuming unobstructed flow by the dimensions of the physical vent. Do you know if your vent sizes are adequate to supply 2K of cubic air flow each?

Then again, based on your description, running the boat at cruise with engine hatches closed should produce one load percentage and then opening the hatches should produce another if there is an issue, right?
 
@ttmott I am sure you have seen the (attached) document however thought I would share as this post seems to be related in many ways to Cummins sea trial procedure after exhaust manifolds are replaced. Made me wonder if Cummins Service logs would lend any help in our goal.

I believe John @GimmeTime used Cummins Tech's for his exhaust replacement. He might be able to dig up their result from the SeaTrial.
 

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@ttmott I am sure you have seen the (attached) document however thought I would share as this post seems to be related in many ways to Cummins sea trial procedure after exhaust manifolds are replaced. Made me wonder if Cummins Service logs would lend any help in our goal.

I believe John @GimmeTime used Cummins Tech's for his exhaust replacement. He might be able to dig up their result from the SeaTrial.
Thanks @rlynch03 This is an important bulletin for anyone getting through the exhaust leak issues in the QSM high horsepower engines.

As an update to the engine room pressure testing - I set up a rudimentary data acquisition system using a cheap interface for a laptop. As I suspected the sampling rate and bit count wasn't good enough to obtain any readable data. The granularity was not sufficient to compare data.
 
@ttmott I am sure you have seen the (attached) document however thought I would share as this post seems to be related in many ways to Cummins sea trial procedure after exhaust manifolds are replaced. Made me wonder if Cummins Service logs would lend any help in our goal.

I believe John @GimmeTime used Cummins Tech's for his exhaust replacement. He might be able to dig up their result from the SeaTrial.

I can't see how the side air vents in my/our boats provide enough air flow for these engines. When I look up under the vent there are 3 holes that are maybe 5"?
 

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