Can we adopt some of "The Pickens Plan" to safely boat?

[Nehalennia]

While watching Mrs. Palin's speach last night, I saw a The Pickens Plan.com commercial with his simple but seemingly good idea to transition from our current reliance on Foreign oil to a more controlled domestic energy plan.

My initial thought was: Hey, I like the idea of a CNG car, since it currently is abundant, domestic, and relatively affordable compared to gas and Diesel. Then I wondered boats be adapted "SAFELY" to hold CNG and offer similar cost benefits and still yeild the needed power.

Some of you are more savvy on this topic, but I thought it would be a good thread and I'd like to know?

 

[tdappleman]

I looked over his plan - it is interesting and will certainly pay him dividends down the road as he has already purchased or invested heavily in the technology he has listed in his plan. I too wonder how it could be used in boats - I think one of the limiting factors is the amount of CNG you can store on board. The little Honda GX is limited to only about 112 hp but then again it has no emissions. I watched a show where one customer had the home fueling unit - took overnight due to the lower pressure but his car was always full and it was cheaper than gas and got better mileage (but had limited range).

 

[tmhudson2]

I think one of the limiting factors is the amount of CNG you can store on board. The little Honda GX is limited to only about 112 hp but then again it has no emissions. I watched a show where one customer had the home fueling unit - took overnight due to the lower pressure but his car was always full and it was cheaper than gas and got better mileage (but had limited range).

In engineering school, I was on a team converting a Mazda to run on CNG; we were unable to get it to reach the same power output on CNG that it could achieve on gasoline. Also, the CNG tank took up more space for a given number of BTUs of fuel storage. Emissions were reduced, but are not zero. (They aren't zero for electric or hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicles either, the source of emissions is just transferred from the tailpipe to the power plant stack.)

Later I lived in Holland, where a number of cars and light trucks had been converted to ron on CNG, which they had in abundance from their fields in the North Sea. I had never before seen gas cyliners mounted on the roof of a VW van.

Aside from the two considerations of power output and fuel storage space, the technology is quite doable. Then there is the logistics of fueling your boat; it would be easier for trailer boaters than for those of us at marinas, as I can't imagine many marinas having the capital to invest in CNG fueling until there was a critical mass of customers.

 

[tdappleman]

Emissions were reduced, but are not zero. (They aren't zero for electric or hydrogen fuel-cell powered vehicles either, the source of emissions is just transferred from the tailpipe to the power plant stack.)

Agreed - I meant to say reduced vs. no emissions. I completely agree with the source being transferred to a different source - this is something many want to overlook when pushing for electric cars, plug in hybrids, etc.

 

[Nehalennia]

Not sure I want to see a giant propane fuel type tank on the stern, but it's an interesting idea to see if there is a surge in the automobile industries that then evolve towards boats.

Good info guys

 

[fc3]

CNG has a number of problems on the road. The tanks are heavy and bulky. The stuff has a lower energy density than gasoline or diesel, so you need more of it. There are also few good places for the tanks. They can't be put too far forward or aft, because that would place them in the crumple zones, and you don't want a collision to damage tanks containing gas compressed to 2,500 to 3,000 psi. It would be pretty easy for Ford and GM to manufacture Expeditions and Yukons that run on CNG. Tank placement isn't too hard and the extra weight would hardly be noticed. It would be a different matter to make a CNG Focus or Cobalt.

Domestic natural gas is about as abundant as domestic petroleum. Generally, where you find gas, you find oil and likewise where you find oil you find gas. Switch from oil to gas and... it will be deja vu all over again.

Base load power generation probably should be nuclear. Use wind and solar where possible and economically feasible. That will reduce the demand for oil and gas. Then expand domestic production of oil and gas. Continue research into alternatives. Hydrogen isn't going to work without nukes to generate the stuff and fuel cells that don't require enormous quantities of precious metals. Power the vehicles that make sense with CNG, otherwise, use gasoline, or diesel.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[tmhudson2]

Power the vehicles that make sense with CNG, otherwise, use gasoline, or diesel.

I agree, Frank. We'll likely see the smaller Sea Rays powered by small diesels long before we see them powered by CNG or hydrogen fuel cells. In addition to simpler changeover in the manufacturing and less investment in the fueling infrastructure, diesels thrive on a relatively constant moderately heavy load, which perfectly fits the definition of a Sea Ray cruising on plane.

 

[fc3]

Oops, I cut the paragraph about boats and forgot the paste!

The CNG problem with boats is the same as cars. Space. There never is enough storage space on a boat. Where are even larger tanks going to be placed? Plus these tanks are going to be much heavier. Additionally since there's less power in natural gas, you going to need bigger engines, or more engines. Don't know what the guys who have marginal gas boat, say a 38-40 footer with twin 8.1, would do with the loss of power from CNG.

Best regards,
Frank

 

[Nehalennia]

Great perspective Frank.
I always find these issues amazing. When those of us who haven't studied in depth the "facts" of these resources, learn them, it becomes clearer the limitations and watch for either progress in their promise or developments of more bountiful, affordable technologies.
The lack of understanding the "nuts and bolts" of it spawns uneducated opinions, ridiculous statements and conspiracy theories, which breeds misinformation and bad advice.

Thanks

 

[Pseudomind]

Great perspective Frank.
I always find these issues amazing. When those of us who haven't studied in depth the "facts" of these resources, learn them, it becomes clearer the limitations and watch for either progress in their promise or developments of more bountiful, affordable technologies.
The lack of understanding the "nuts and bolts" of it spawns uneducated opinions, ridiculous statements and conspiracy theories, which breeds misinformation and bad advice.

Thanks

Ditto!

I ask people often about many of the comments made here thus far, and most have no idea of any other factors or consequences (everything is free lunch to many of them, th e “Gov-mint” will take care of them). For some reason too many believe one can just build a perpetual motion system and all problems will be solved. Of course I have never learned of a law of physics which will allow for this perpetual motion system.

Not picking on California here, but it is where I often hear the most about rolling black outs and brown outs with the electric, so what is going to happen when millions of autos are plugged in? Do not even attempt to tell me about ‘Charging at night hyperbole.’ Especially if it is during a heat wave, or sever cold snap. I would imagine eventually you will not only worry about the rising fuel costs, but also the rising electrical rate increases. [Just what are the utilities going to use for fuel to produce the additional power required?] As to the pollution from the utilities, I guess the answer will be "Carbon Credits" trading, accomplishing nothing in the long run.

Mass transit would help, but I for one do not see this being to helpful until we as a society make many changes to not only technical issues, but also criminal laws and enforce them. Many people just do not like to take chances with pan handlers, thugs, gangs etc. I am not saying this is an epidemic of crime, but that usually people wish to feel safe and not bothered when just attempting to go from point "A" to "B." Perhaps the "sheople" just adapt to the trend, but I myself do not subscribe to the sheople mentality

But as this is about CNG for boats, I do not see it as being feasible at this juncture in time for the same reason others have already posted.


:thumbsup:

 

[tmhudson2]

For some reason too many believe one can just build a perpetual motion system and all problems will be solved. Of course I have never learned of a law of physics which will allow for this perpetual motion system.

Just the other day my fourteen year old son had this great idea for a perpetual motion vehicle -- just mount windmills on the front that would power generators that would power electric drive motors! I started to try to explain entropy to him, but remembered the trouble I first had with the concept in E school, so I got down to the basic discussion of energy losses preventing perpetual motion. TANSTAFL!

 

[skibum]

I still find it hard to believe that we will "run out" of oil. We have only been extracting the oil from the Earth for about 100 years or so. The Earth has been producing oil for hundreds of millions of years. We don't even have a clue as to how quickly the Earth produces oil. For all we know, what we pump out every day is replaced every night, just maybe not in the same place.

I think the whole thing is cooked up by the left wing and/or the environmentalist crowd. The politicians have prevented exploration for fear of some oil company finding the "mother load" of oil, thus blowing the "running out" theory. The environmentalists just want to put us back in the stone age so we don't mess up anything with technology.

We have plenty of oil, all we've got to do is find it and DRILL. When one hole dries up, move the drill...

Michael

 

[Presentation]

....For all we know, what we pump out every day is replaced every night, just maybe not in the same place.......

Well, I must admit I don’t know how the oil thing works but electricity is a total scam.

Years ago plugs had only 2 prongs. Then they added that third one. Do you know why? :smt017

Well, that third prong is called the ground and here is how it works.

The ‘power plant’ sends you electrons thru wires. They go thru a meter on the side of your house that counts how much electricity you take.

After you use the electricity the electrons move thru that 3rd prong, out your house, thru a “ground rod” then thru the ground and back to the ‘power plant’ where they put the electrons back into the wires and send them back to you. :wow:

They keep selling you the same power over and over.

It’s a total conspiracy man. Total conspiracy.

 

[Woody]

Well, I must admit I don’t know how the oil thing works but electricity is a total scam.

Years ago plugs had only 2 prongs. Then they added that third one. Do you know why? :smt017

Well, that third prong is called the ground and here is how it works.

The ‘power plant’ sends you electrons thru wires. They go thru a meter on the side of your house that counts how much electricity you take.

After you use the electricity the electrons move thru that 3rd prong, out your house, thru a “ground rod” then thru the ground and back to the ‘power plant’ where they put the electrons back into the wires and send them back to you. :wow:

They keep selling you the same power over and over.

It’s a total conspiracy man. Total conspiracy.

This is a joke right?