420/44 DB Owners Club

Mark.60 said:
I think lower cabinet near ac access is a good spot and yes an automatic transfer switch. I’m considering using the 24 volt thruster batteries. Thanks for the contact info will check them out. I thought I would see them but doesn’t look like winter boat shows are going to happen this year.
Click to expand...
Ok - As far as Victron you can use the Phoenix inverters and add the Victron Filax transfer switch. These do not have battery chargers integrated.
https://www.victronenergy.com/transfer-switches/filax-2
Or - If you desire an integrated ATS and battery charger then look into the Victron Multiplus 500VA (which is what I'd do):
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-MultiPlus-500VA-2000VA-EN.pdf

You probably surmise I'm a fan of Victron equipment and I am. The quality of their products is simply far above anyone else and all very reasonability priced.
 
Mark.60 said:
I think lower cabinet near ac access is a good spot and yes an automatic transfer switch. I’m considering using the 24 volt thruster batteries. Thanks for the contact info will check them out. I thought I would see them but doesn’t look like winter boat shows are going to happen this year.
Click to expand...
Do you really need a transfer switch?

I added a switch in the media panel (where the stereo and DVD player are) that turns the inverter on and off (EDIT: via the remote function). Power comes from the 12V accessory breaker. It powers only the TV, DVD player, Apple TV and a couple other really small loads. The TV is the "big" load at 60W max when actually on. I leave the inverter switch on essentially all the time except when on the hook, at which time I turn it on to use it. The DVD player is off unless being used, which last season was zero times (it may get deleted in favour of a USB video library). The ambient draw on the inverter is around 1-2A DC- hard to tell exactly...the needle barely blips.

I do a similar thing in the master stateroom using the new breaker panel. The panel has a breaker for the inverter, one for a fan, and another for a USB power outlet. The inverter has the TV and DVD player plugged into it.

Pretty simple solution.
 
Pura Vida dos said:
Any Idea what product they used?
Tuffak VR or Tuffak AR
60GA or 40GA
Thanks
Click to expand...
All upper windows are Tuffak-AR and the lower on the rear is Makrolon.(apparently Tuffak and Makrolon are the same thing)
 
bajturner said:
Finished the fridge install last week. Was in a hurry to get it done so didn't take any pictures along the way. It is a Vitrifrigo DW250IXN4-EFV, dual compressor fridge upper (door), freezer lower (drawer). I am very impressed so far. This is a much higher quality appliance than the old Norcold. Runs much colder at at setting of 5/9 than the Norcold did at 4/5. Virtually silent. Power draw is comparable- lower if only one compressor is running, higher if both are on. Overall duty cycle seems much lower...will monitor.

General process:
- Remove old fridge.
- Relocate microwave and refrgerator 120V AC outlets outside of the refrigerator compartment (I put them on the outboard / back side of the cabinet substructure ...lots of free wire to do it). They are in the way otherwise.
- Relocate microwave vent pipe as it is also a bit in the way. I put it above, to the back of the microwave cabinet substructure (did a bit of a half-assed job). Considered removing it since the new microwave doesn't need it, but doesn't hurt to remove excess heat.
- Widen the opening in the front cabinet veneer to the same width as the substructure behind it.
- Add 24"x24"x1/2" plywood to the floor of the refrigerator opening to raise the new fridge such that the top bezel covers the cabinet opening.
- Connect both fridge and freezer 12V lines to existing 12V feed. Plug both 120V AC plug into relocated outlet.
- Connect drain line. The existing barb was a bit big for the line from the new fridge. A bit of heat and it slid on.
- Slide the new fridge in.
- Predrill and install 10 screws (not supplied).
- Turn on the breakers.

View attachment 109945

View attachment 109946

View attachment 109947

Hopefully it is reliable!
Click to expand...
I like the idea of having the refrigerator on top. Did you go with the flush mount or the surface mount flange?
 
NorCalRobert said:
I like the idea of having the refrigerator on top. Did you go with the flush mount or the surface mount flange?
Click to expand...
Flush mount. A few simple mods required to the cabinetry, but nothing major. Nice fit.

Really good fridge from a functional standpoint. Only real unknown is longevity and reliability, but it seems very well made and the brand has a decent reputation.
 
bajturner said:
Do you really need a transfer switch?

I added a switch in the media panel (where the stereo and DVD player are) that turns the inverter on and off (EDIT: via the remote function). Power comes from the 12V accessory breaker. It powers only the TV, DVD player, Apple TV and a couple other really small loads. The TV is the "big" load at 60W max when actually on. I leave the inverter switch on essentially all the time except when on the hook, at which time I turn it on to use it. The DVD player is off unless being used, which last season was zero times (it may get deleted in favour of a USB video library). The ambient draw on the inverter is around 1-2A DC- hard to tell exactly...the needle barely blips.

I do a similar thing in the master stateroom using the new breaker panel. The panel has a breaker for the inverter, one for a fan, and another for a USB power outlet. The inverter has the TV and DVD player plugged into it.

Pretty simple solution.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t the transfer switch make it simple?
When AC is available it runs on AC
When it’s not it runs on DC
 
Mark.60 said:
Doesn’t the transfer switch make it simple?
When AC is available it runs on AC
When it’s not it runs on DC
Click to expand...
Here is the problem if you try to switch manually -
The load neutrals/common (the white wires on all of the things you want to power with an inverter) must also switch with the hots (the black wires).
Inverters with ATS switch both the hot and neutrals.
As an inverter is classified as a power source the neutrals for the loads are bonded to the grounds when inverting.
Essential for safety.
Your generator (a power source) does the same thing - when you transfer from shore power to generator the generator bonds the neutral and ground together.
This is a drawing of the inverter I installed on my 400DA. Note the neutral wiring for the inverter circuits have their own unique buss.
400DA 120ElectSchematicR1.jpg
 
ttmott said:
Here is the problem if you try to switch manually -
The load neutrals/common (the white wires on all of the things you want to power with an inverter) must also switch with the hots (the black wires).
Inverters with ATS switch both the hot and neutrals.
As an inverter is classified as a power source the neutrals for the loads are bonded to the grounds when inverting.
Essential for safety.
Your generator (a power source) does the same thing - when you transfer from shore power to generator the generator bonds the neutral and ground together.
This is a drawing of the inverter I installed on my 400DA. Note the neutral wiring for the inverter circuits have their own unique buss.
View attachment 117182
Click to expand...
This seems way more complicated than using a small inverter to run a 60W TV, in my opinion. There is no separate AC circuit to transfer to/from, just a TV plugged into a point of use inverter.

What is wrong with just properly wiring a small inverter to 12V DC and plugging the TV into it. It can be powered by 12V all the time. When on shore power the converter / charger is going so you won't even notice the small DC draw. It's a bit inefficient going from AC to DC and back to AC again, but the wattage is so low, it doesn't really matter.

When you are on generator, same as shore power. When on battery only, you can turn the inverter off if you want to preserve battery.

No transfer switch because you don't switch AC sources. It's always powered through the inverter. It's a very simple approach vs a whole boat solution for just a TV.
 
bajturner said:
This seems way more complicated than using a small inverter to run a 60W TV, in my opinion. There is no separate AC circuit to transfer to/from, just a TV plugged into a point of use inverter.

What is wrong with just properly wiring a small inverter to 12V DC and plugging the TV into it. It can be powered by 12V all the time. When on shore power the converter / charger is going so you won't even notice the small DC draw. It's a bit inefficient going from AC to DC and back to AC again, but the wattage is so low, it doesn't really matter.

When you are on generator, same as shore power. When on battery only, you can turn the inverter off if you want to preserve battery.

No transfer switch because you don't switch AC sources. It's always powered through the inverter. It's a very simple approach vs a whole boat solution for just a TV.
Click to expand...
Agree that's super easy, but I thought he wanted several loads which implied (at least to me) he wanted some of the outlets in the boat on the inverter.
 
Mark.60 said:
Doesn’t the transfer switch make it simple?
When AC is available it runs on AC
When it’s not it runs on DC
Click to expand...
Well, it's more sophisticated, with more components and a more complicated install. The approach I took simply has it running on DC all the time.

The TV actually wants DC, but unfortunately incorporates its own power supply to accept AC, which is what you have available in your house. You can find smaller TVs that accept DC in (the ones with external power supplies), but not larger ones.

Lots of power conversion going on!

In my old boat, I had a smaller TV with 12V input that could be powered directly from the battery bank, skipping the inverter step. This is what I replicated with my setup with a TV that has 120V AC input.
 
ttmott said:
Agree that's super easy, but I thought he wanted several loads which implied (at least to me) he wanted some of the outlets in the boat on the inverter.
Click to expand...

Ya, your approach for sure if we wants that...and you are the guy to advise him (and me)!
 
Sorry if my original question wasn’t clear. I will only power the TV and a blue ray player. Just so if I was to watch something I don’t need to run gen. Especially on a quiet night
 
I had the same question years ago. There were two options, do the big inverter (2K-3K W) which will do a lot and of course cost some chunk, or do it very simple with small inverters.

To run small electronics and a TV all I did was installed two 400-800 pick inverters. One in the salon and one on the bridge. It worked like a charm for the last 9-10 years. I used to run TV with CD player up on the bridge and this little inverter didn't have a single hiccup. It also runs my onboard viewing cameras. I mounted it under the helm and ran an outlet to be easily accessible. I used different color, so everyone knows that it's a low load outlet.

I never had a situation when I said I wish I had a larger inverter. When I do, that means I need much bigger load, so I fire up the genny.

I'd say that this approach works boats with dual voltage appliances. Friends with other boats where fridges are mostly 110AC have much different requirements and large inverter make much more sense in their case.
 
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Mark.60 said:
Sorry if my original question wasn’t clear. I will only power the TV and a blue ray player. Just so if I was to watch something I don’t need to run gen. Especially on a quiet night
Click to expand...
Probably my bad - In this case I would also question the need a transfer switch. It gets complicated fast when transferring power comes into the equation. Route suitable sized switched and fused battery leads to where the inverter will be installed. Then have the ability to either plug the TV/BluRay player into the boat's outlets or the inverter.
 
bajturner said:
Flush mount. A few simple mods required to the cabinetry, but nothing major. Nice fit.

Really good fridge from a functional standpoint. Only real unknown is longevity and reliability, but it seems very well made and the brand has a decent reputation.
Click to expand...

That’s one big fridge, I’m thinking your definitely going to need a little ballast under that guest bunk :)
 
AEO said:
That’s one big fridge, I’m thinking your definitely going to need a little ballast under that guest bunk :)
Click to expand...
Looks like about 45 pounds more than original, as nice as that looks and to have a upper fridge I will go this route when mine fails.
 
Hi All,
I am gearing up to sell my mint 2007 44 Sedan Bridge. I will post in the classified section with the details soon. Tacoma WA. area.

Mark
 

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