Another Winterizing Question

SeaRay said:
That I am!! Good call, and yes I do tend to over analyze everything :grin:
Click to expand...

I knew it! :grin: That's OK, though... I understand your line of thinking.

When I change the oil, I'll let it drain for no more than 5 - 10 minutes - usually just until I finish draining and filling the block. At that point, I'll suck it through the "quick drain" if it's a 2001 or newer Merc. Otherwise, I suck it through the dipstick tube (I put a hose on the end of the dipstick - I don't insert a hose into the tube as that would just take longer because of the smaller diameter tube).

Going through the "quick drain", I pretty much get everything as it's attached to the oil pan in lieu of the drain plug. But either way, waiting longer doesn't really produce any more oil to be drained out. I remember one time I experimented with this... I drained the oil after 5 to 10 minutes, then let it set for another 30 minutes. There may have been a few extra ounces that came out after that 30 minutes. Not worth the time to wait.

FYI: if you can reach your drain plug (likely, just by "feel") you could install a "quick drain", if you wanted to.
 
Thanks for all the replies…

Alex, I am just looking for the quickest, simplest, most efficient and more importantly the most reliable way to winterize my boat. I am not afraid of the extra work but I would like to understand why I am doing it and what makes one method better than the other.

I have had the boat four summers now. The first fall I paid a shop to winterize it. The last 2 years I winterized it with help from a fellow boater. This year I will tackle it all on my own. Every time I do it I learn something new.

Hopefully I have a lot more boating seasons left in me so I am always interested in learning about new (at least to me) or different ways of maintaining my boat.

I have been given advice before from Lazy Daze and have read lots of his other posts. I trust his input and feel confident in his advice. But, I just want to understand the difference and why one method might be better.

BonBini, yes I completely understand about freezing water expanding and the damage it can do.

But saying that if it has somewhere to go it won’t do any damage isn’t always true. Fill an empty beer or soda can (that is still open) with water and put it in the freezer. The water has a place to go (because the top is open) but I bet that can will still get damaged when the water freezes and expands.

And as the water freezes and thaws then refreezes it could become trapped in itself.

Also, I would never reuse the AF as it would have been diluted with water that was trapped in pockets of the engine.

I guess what I meant about the comment of running the engine after changing the oil was intended to start the engine immediately after changing the oil so the new oil has a chance to get pumped though the engine instead of just sitting in the oil pan.

In the past, I warmed the engine up, ran the AF through it and then shut it down. I would then change the oil. But then since it had the AF in it already I wouldn’t start it again.

So now I will change the oil first then run the AF through it so the new oil gets distributed and then the engine is parked with AF in it.

I agree a couple hours of run time on the oil wouldn’t hurt anything either.

Sorry for the long reply. Please don’t take it as a rant because I do appreciate all the replies and information.

We boat (and wakeboard with dry suits on) as late into the year as possible. Right now our lake water temps is about 46 degrees, the air temp is in the high 50’s and we are still boating. So when the time comes to finally winterize I try to get it done as quickly as efficiently as I can because it will be downright cold by then!!
 
Ahh, Lazy Daze you posted while I was writing my book!!!

Half way through the year I did put a drain hose kit on my engine but I haven't used it to drain the oil yet. This will be the first time.

Hopefully it isn't as slow as I heard they could be. I cut the end fitting off (because it wouldn't fit through my bilge drain) and added a ball valve in line on the hose that stays in the bilge and I can just push teh hose out of the bilge drain. So hopefully that will help.

Anyway...back to the original question...Was the main advantage of using the hose method to avoid the risk of the T-stat being closed?
 
SeaRay: good analogy of freeze/thaw process to eventually cause damage. That’s why technically all one needs is enough freeze protection to slush the solution…. We run allot of outside wood boilers up here and it can be quite expensive to treat a 200+ gal system.

Collecting and reusing the a-freeze: Using the bucket method without draining first, yes the solution will be quite diluted, and that is what one is protecting there engine with, a diluted solution. By draining and then filling with a-freeze, I really can’t see the solution being diluted all that much. Also if there are some hidden pockets of water that may freeze, with the a-freeze being fluid, the freezing/expanding water has a place to go!

I would think if a given marina was winterizing 200+ boats a year, that’s allot of a-freeze that needs to be recycled.

"Anyway...back to the original question...Was the main advantage of using the hose method to avoid the risk of the T-stat being closed?" A: its because warmed up idling, its only opened a tiny bit. Also the t-stat is only full open when your engine is running fully loaded. And even when the t-stat is fully open, allot of the coolant being pumped up via stern drive is going to cool the exhaust manifolds. With that being said. I would not be surprised if only 10% of the a-freeze pumped via bucket method got mixed with the water circulating the block. So pump 4 gals out the bucket, say 2qts ish gets mixed with the 8 qts ish and you have a mixture of 25%, is enough to slush, but enough to reuse.

Just speculation on the 25% solution mixture, would make a good experimant.
 
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I think there are more variables, hence more areas for something to go wrong, with the bucket method. For example, if the bucket doesn't allow the AF to drain fast enough you may fry the impeller. Obviously it's a big problem if someone doesn't realize you still have to drain the block first.

I just did a little experiment to address the main issue of the t-stat not opening. I had a used, but good, t-stat sitting on my work bench. I lowered it into a pot of boiling water to fully open it. I then pulled it out and lowered it into another pot that had room temperature water in it (simulating the introduction of AF). I did this a few times and each time it took about 13 or 14 seconds to completely close. That's a lot faster than what I expected to see.

However, the variable I can't account for is how much heat the AF would absorb on it's way to the t-stat. I don't think it would be enough to change the results by a significant amount, though.

As far as little pockets of water still (possibly) remaining in the block and re-using the AF, I don't see the AF being diluted by any significant amount to negate re-using it. I also don't see why the tiny bit of water (if any) left in the block would do any damage. I've known customers/friends over the years who did not use AF and only drain. They have never had any damage. Personally, I'm not going to take the time to re-use the AF - but if someone was so inclined, I wouldn't advise against it.
 
SeaRay, there is one more way to winterize the engines. I know a guy who uses a high pressure air system to blow out the engines after training them. No AF. No problems so far.

On a side note "keep the engines WARM". Then they never freeze.

Good Luck
 
I winterized w/ bucket method last Saturday. I ran it about 20-minutes, idling and revving in neutral at 2k-3k rpm several times to get it good and hot. Then drain, bump engine 3-5x until dry. Meanwhile, quickly change fuel separating water filter w/ 50-50 mix 2 stroke oil & gas. I preheated the AF on a electric heated mat before dumping it in the bucket, but it wasn't warm, maybe 45 degrees f. It took about 3 gallons before it started coming out the exhaust/prop. I let all 5 gallons run through just to help make sure it's full strength.

Shut her down, pull battery, silicone spray engine & assy's. Tarp her off. still need to place dry bag and set mousetraps. I think that covers it...

It looked like there was a small threaded fitting on top of the t-stat housing. Would that be the spot to check the AF? Is that the "right side" of the T-stat?
 
widowmaker said:
I winterized w/ bucket method last Saturday. I ran it about 20-minutes, idling and revving in neutral at 2k-3k rpm several times to get it good and hot. Then drain, bump engine 3-5x until dry. Meanwhile, quickly change fuel separating water filter w/ 50-50 mix 2 stroke oil & gas. I preheated the AF on a electric heated mat before dumping it in the bucket, but it wasn't warm, maybe 45 degrees f. It took about 3 gallons before it started coming out the exhaust/prop. I let all 5 gallons run through just to help make sure it's full strength.

Shut her down, pull battery, silicone spray engine & assy's. Tarp her off. still need to place dry bag and set mousetraps. I think that covers it...

It looked like there was a small threaded fitting on top of the t-stat housing. Would that be the spot to check the AF? Is that the "right side" of the T-stat?
Click to expand...

are you able to drain you motor? I can't even reach my drain plugs it is so tight. Like you I run more antifreeze in so there is greater chance of closer to full strength.
 
I Use the Drain method for the first time this year. Glad i did, Went to take the bottom Clamp off the pump and it just fell apart.
Overall Seamed a little more professional and used less anti-frezz then using the Bucket method
 
There are 2 blue plugs on the water pump on the starboard side bottom near the oil water seperator filter that are very tough. I have to step into the bilge lay across the motor and put them in by feel with my left hand. Put a towel underneath in the bilge in case you drop one so it will catch it in the bilge,else its gone, and make sure the little rubber gasket is on the blue plug.
 
As a first time boat owner, I find this discussion interesting.

The question I have is how to winterize the boat when it is on a boat lift? Using the bucket method, what is the best method to keep the AF out of the lake? Also, in the spring same question.

Since I am in NC, I am not as corcern if the AF ends up diluted but still want the freezing and corrosion protection.

BTW, my mechanic uses the bucket method. He is also trying to convince me that the oil should be changed in the spring not the fall. Doesn't make sense to me.
 
Widowmaker, I can access at least one of those plugs vaery easily through the rear seat compartment hatch on my boat. I am not sure if you have that but without mine I think it wouild be tough.

On my boat there are 2 of the plugs you just can't see at all. I have to just feel for them to find them.

Phughes, can't help you with the AF in the lake question but I totally agree on changing the oil in the fall and not the spring.
 
Wish2Fish (was it Travis? Sorry, it's been a while),

Yes, the AF will go to the block right away. However, it doesn't go to the upper part of the engine until the t-stat opens. I'm not versed in all the passageways of the engine, so I can't really comment on what percent - but I'd guesstimate that using the bucket method would avoid about the upper 25% of the engine. Maybe someone more in the know can get more specific about this?

Thinking about this a little further, I paid closer attention to some things as I winterized some boats this week. There's usually a gush of clear water that comes out of the housing before it turns nice and pink. I always pour the pink in so fast that I never really took notice to how much, before it turns nice and pink. It appears that, with most engines (sometimes it's not as much), about 12 - 16oz of clear water comes out before it slowly turns to full pink.... maybe about 24 - 30oz till total pink.

So, unless the hose method is used (or the t-stat opens during the bucket method), that water will stay in the upper part of the engine. Obviously there are many people that have had good luck using the bucket method, and I certainly do not wish any ill will on them. But, I truly believe the safest way is to pour the AF into the hoses.
 
I have the 3 point drain system on my 6.2's. I drained then bumped the engines and the poured -60 into the 3 hoses connected to the themostat housing. I am glad to hear you say that it took quite a bit of AF before it came out all pink. When I filled the big hose up it took about 1.75 gal of AF before fluids started to come out of the housing. It took almost an additional 1 gal before the concentration was strong enough to make 2 balls float in my RV AF tester. Where was all of this water sitting. I had the same results in for both engines. I am not sure if I trust the 3 point system to drain all of the water.
 
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