Appraised value lower than offer

[HIFI]

Founded in 1959, Sea Ray was one of the first boat builders to use fiberglass and other high-tech composite materials in the construction of pleasure boats. The company's continuing innovations in unique styling, performance, interior design, technical systems and many other areas; plus many revolutionary breakthroughs in technology and quality manufacturing processes, have placed Sea Ray at the top of the world's pleasure boat builders for more than half a century.

 

[HIFI]

Sea Ray's focus on quality is evidenced by a complete line of boats that not only meet but also exceed the standards set by the United States Coast Guard, the National Marine Manufacturers Association (NMMA), the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC) and the International Organization of Standards (ISO). In fact, Sea Ray is the first pleasure boat manufacturer to be certified for meeting the high ISO 9002 standards.

 

[Henry Boyd]

I think something is amiss here, and it would help tremendously if an issue was cleared up.

I as a possible buyer have hired a surveyor whe is therfore working for me. I know each of my previous two surveys to include the haul out was just under $900.00.

I want to know how "MY" surveyor quotes me one value and then magically turns around the next day and has increased the survey value by $28,000.00.

This has nothing to do with the seller...doesn't the surveyor work for me and my interest, and I am referring to being impartial here. As Joe Friday would say, "Just the facts maam, just the facts."

You hit it right on the head. The surveyor works for you, the buyer, and any valuation information he gives you is biased (except for the OP's - that guy is just wrong). Any buyer with a bit of knowledge is going to know this and respond accordingly.

The only effective value information a surveyor can give you is a list of things that are deficient, and a cost to correct the deficiencies. Even then there can be legitimate pushback from the seller because a fair number of 'deficiencies' are based on a subjective view. For example, does a boat with 45 hours on it since its last 100 hr service 'need' to have a 100 hour service?

As for the OP's surveyor, he either made a dumb mistake, or is just plain incompetent. But he also proves the point that amateur appraisers produce amateur results. One can only hope the OP did not say something to the buyer based on the first set of values the surveyor provided. He probably would have lost all credibility on valuation if he did followed by a 28K reversal.

The point about amateur appraisers also extends to the crowd that believes that the best way to formulate the value of a used boat is to take some national average like NADA and lop x% of it. And it does not matter if they know someone who just bought the same boat for NADA - x%. Boats are not commodities like coffee or oil. A single sale does not set the market.

Finally, I have to question the thinking process of those folks who make these suggestions and are currently owners of the same product. Deflating the value of somebody else's Sea Ray helps deflate the value of all Sea Rays, including the one you own!


Henry

 

[HIFI]

Quality. At Sea Ray, it's not just exacting attention to detail. It is, for everyone in the Sea Ray family, a way of life.

I salute all you Sea Ray owners and please consider youself part of the family.

 

[Woody]

Buying stuff sure is getting complicated, now we should feel guilty about negotiating the best price possible.

 

[CSR_Admin]

I tried to read most of this thread, sorry if this has been touched upon. In my career of selling boats I can't remember the value the surveyor puts on the boat as ever having any impact on the deal. The fair market generates a selling price. The surveyor checks out the boat to make sure it is as advertised and exposes unknowns which may or may not impact the selling price. The price might be adjusted to account for fixing one of these unknowns, or the repair may be left in the sellers lap to correct prior to closing. But never does the value the surveyor puts on the boat have any impact on what it sells for.

I did see where some people touched on potential problems with insurance and financing from the surveyor putting to low of a value on the boat. This is very true. Often a surveyor will want to know the contract price up front so they don't screw this up for the buyer. Of course if an unknowing buyer truly is overpaying for a boat a good surveyor will let them know. But it really is opinion and the market dictates what things cost.

 

[HIFI]

I tried to read most of this thread, sorry if this has been touched upon. In my career of selling boats I can't remember the value the surveyor puts on the boat as ever having any impact on the deal. The fair market generates a selling price. The surveyor checks out the boat to make sure it is as advertised and exposes unknowns which may or may not impact the selling price. The price might be adjusted to account for fixing one of these unknowns, or the repair may be left in the sellers lap to correct prior to closing. But never does the value the surveyor puts on the boat have any impact on what it sells for.

I did see where some people touched on potential problems with insurance and financing from the surveyor putting to low of a value on the boat. This is very true. Often a surveyor will want to know the contract price up front so they don't screw this up for the buyer. Of course if an unknowing buyer truly is overpaying for a boat a good surveyor will let them know. But it really is opinion and the market dictates what things cost.

Jim,

Can our freind here walk from this deal with his deposit because of the undisclosed damage? Can one walk away from any deal if a survey shows issues even though a seller is willing to fix to buyers satisfaction?

 

[unklbuck]

I was simply trying to tell the 39' buyer, who must think he's getting the best deal in USA on that 39'--no year, no boat info etc.....that don't be afraid to come back to the seller with your issues and HAGGLE the best price you can get. HINT, just don't let the "I got the best quality sea ray on the forum seller" think he is getting haggled. Most importantly, don't feel commited to getting something you are hesitant on. Doubt = fear = indecision and worry. PASS

Hey, the deals are out there--work the numbers and check it against your research database that you are buiilding on this buying process....it's a most fun journey. Build that db of engines, boat history, service, condition, yada yada. And people are getting deals--how about a Kentucky fresh water 2000 SR 540DA with 3196 CATS, 950h for $210,000 SOLD 45d ago. How about a 2007, 40DA with 100h Cummins...sold today for $270,000. The deals are out there and just make it your job to find the best value for you.

All this SR quality stuff is good for you and total horse crap for most other boaters, especially the wet core sea ray owners. I had a 450DA and loved it, but the quality on that SR can't compare to the others I have looked at and made a run at. Honestly MR Stereo, SR is not even in the ballpark with the likes of the Westports, Nordhavns, Lazzaras, and now that the Westport father has bought his sons' Pacific Mariner--include those as the mini Westies. Heck, i got an Everglades that is a total knockout when it comes to qa fishing machine.

Now, as a seller, by all means, repeat your qa slogans before each negotiation and get the best price out there, but c'mon, what's wrong with a buyer trying to get the best value he can at the best deal?

 

[Woody]

Fair enough. I saw a 2005 280 DA for sale and the price was 53K. (hypothetical) I expect that you will sell yours for 53K as well? Or maybe even a % off if 53K, better still. Nevermind that the boat in question was a run out POS, that is irrelavent in today's market, right? I mean, it sold for 53K so why should we pay any more for your boat. Make sure to get that survey, the purpose of a survey is to find $10K worth of nit noid scratches and normal usage issues so that you can drive the purchase price lower, forgetting that the price of the boat is already well below NADA. That is the current mindset of some folks around here and in the boating market in general.

If I were to list my boat, I would start with 189K. Reason - it's worth that. If no one wants to pay that kind of money for it, that's okay, they can go get someone else's headache rather than a well maintained vessel.

Yes boat values have fallen but even in this poorer market the boats that stand out due to condition, maintenance, etc will still draw the bigger buck. While the $$ numbers have changed I don’t think the principles involved in buying or selling have changed with them. As a buyer or seller I have always put effort into negotiating the best price. I see no reason to discard that strategy now. Some boat owners think their financial situation should be able to influence the value of their boat. If the current market says my boat is worth 50-60K then that’s what it’s worth. The reality is that’s what it would have been worth at some point anyway and I’ve just got there a couple years sooner.

I know you love to boat and given some of your recent posts I’m sorry to hear this country’s economic mess has created new worries for you but things are what they are. This is a time for people to be realistic and look for ways to minimize the damage or their 135k boat, the one they feel has a 189K value, might be sold off a repo lot for 100K.

 

[douglee25]

Fair enough. I saw a 2005 280 DA for sale and the price was 53K. (hypothetical) I expect that you will sell yours for 53K as well? Or maybe even a % off if 53K, better still. Nevermind that the boat in question was a run out POS, that is irrelavent in today's market, right? I mean, it sold for 53K so why should we pay any more for your boat. Make sure to get that survey, the purpose of a survey is to find $10K worth of nit noid scratches and normal usage issues so that you can drive the purchase price lower, forgetting that the price of the boat is already well below NADA. That is the current mindset of some folks around here and in the boating market in general.

If I were to list my boat, I would start with 189K. Reason - it's worth that. If no one wants to pay that kind of money for it, that's okay, they can go get someone else's headache rather than a well maintained vessel.

In reality, boats that sell in a specific category, size, year, etc will have an average selling price. Throw out the high's, the low's, and you'll find what the average are selling for. If your 2007 was listed at $189k and another 2007 was listed at $85k, and then the 1000's of others were listed around $130k-$140k, I'm definitely not starting at $189k. Would you? I don't care how well it's maintained or how many mainteance records you can produce, the market is not supporting $189k, it's supporting $130k-$140k. Now granted if your specific boat has certain options or upgrades that warrant a greater selling price, then that of course will raise the price appropriately.

Doug

 

[CSR_Admin]

A boat survey is most definitely an "out" for the buyer on any boat deal. Boat contracts typically say "Subject to acceptable survey". They also say "Subject to acceptable sea trial". Try to define "acceptable" in these 2 clauses. I can't. If a buyer says "I hate the way the boat rides" he can get out of the deal. If the surveyor turns up a minor problem and the buyer says "I have been told to steer clear of boats with that minor problem whether you fix it or not" then the buyer is out.

Where does the deposit come in? The deposit is there to cover expenses should the buyer fail to pay them. If the boat gets hauled out by your local marina for example to inspect the bottom during the survey, and the buyer walks on the deal without paying after seeing blisters. Or if the boat needs to be winterized after the sea trial because it was winterized prior to sea trial, and the buyer walks, then his money would be used to re-winterize the boat and the rest refunded.

Now lets say a buyer completely fails to close on the boat, the time gets dragged out past the "closing date" on the contract, and the boat is being kept off the market. Then by all means the deposit should be kept for keeping the boat off the market. Us brokers have extensions for unforseen holdups to allow the closing to happen at a later date should both parties be agreeable.

 

[kerslaks]

Wow, you guys have been prolific while I was away from the board. This thread has doubled in size!

I really appreciate all of your feedback and I am definitely benefiting from your discussions.

I have gotten the seller to reduce the price of the boat to help account for the condition of the hull. I asked for $5000 and they conceded $3000. I can live with that.

However, I have asked for maintenance records for this boat and the broker is telling me that there are none. The current owner is the widow of the guy who actually ran the boat. She knows nothing about it and broker says that their dealership has no records for the boat.

The port shaft has been removed, the port aftercooler has been removed, and the port alternator has been replaced.

Most worrisome is the port alternator because the port batteries were flat the first time we saw the boat. Port side voltage was 13.23 during the survey versus 13.98 on the stbd side. Added these two together in my head at about 4AM this morning and started thinking that I might be walking into a boat with electrical issues.

This could just be paranoia, the port batteries might have been damaged prior to the replacement of the port alternator and they just weren't holding a charge. Or the port charging system may have gremlins in it that drove an 82 year old man to his grave.

A good maintenance history would be nice. It offers no guarantees however. Our 280DA was immaculate when we bought it and we still had teething pains until we got on top of its issues.

Am I just being paranoid about dropping $200K or do I have justification for feeling shaky about this deal?