Boat shopping and survey woes

[SeaNile]

I'm beginning to realize boat shopping is damn near a full time job. Found "the one" and have been under contract for about 6 weeks now awaiting survey and sea trial, which was today. Sure it's early in the season but not a single system was commissioned, no water in the tanks and the water dockside was not turned on. Not the end of the world but for those of us who appreciate the attention to details, this was fail #1. Long story short, boat ran great, 2003 50 DA with QSM11s, but upon a few minutes of the Cummins guy looking around he finds all the blades in the one turbo chewed up and the other engine has the beginning stages of the dreaded exhaust manifold leak. All coolers are original and he recommends replacing them all since they are 20yrs old. The kicker.....turns up 2270 RPM at WOT with fuel burn of 25.3 at 2100rpm and 20.5 at 1920rpm with about 1/2 fuel and 4 adults on boat. Aftercoolers and heat exchangers last record of service is 2013.

What does this mean? Engine guy has an extremely quick estimate of at least 20K. Broker grunted that since the seller has already come off of his asking price it's extremely unlikely he will budge on price at all. I can see the recommendation of all coolers being replaced proactively(fuel, transmission coolers, etc) for about 10k being a little aggressive. Or is it?

The final kick to the groin was the swim platform goes down for about 3" and immediately stops and goes back to the original position.

The manager of the dealership started the day with "this boat is perfect, guy spends a ton of money on it and you won't find a thing wrong with it."

My guess is knowing how this particular broker is....absolutely nothing will be accomplished tomorrow. No sense of urgency at all which is extremely frustrating to me.

Back up plan....may go look at two 44 Sedan Bridge boats with the QSC500 engines.

 

[Golfman25]

Consider yourself lucky you had a seller who would agree to a sea trial. My last one would not. Sold the boat anyway.

 

[Carpediem44DB]

I would walk and let them put it back on the market. If it is still around in a month or two, make an offer that makes sense to you. I think that the Covid bubble is about to deflate myself. With the high fule costs and inflation nearing double digits and the Fed beginning to raise interest rates, my feeling is that people will be putting the brakes on luxury purchases and tightening the purse strings a bit for the foreseeable future.

 

[SeaNile]

I would walk and let them put it back on the market. If it is still around in a month or two, make an offer that makes sense to you. I think that the Covid bubble is about to deflate myself. With the high fule costs and inflation nearing double digits and the Fed beginning to raise interest rates, my feeling is that people will be putting the brakes on luxury purchases and tightening the purse strings a bit for the foreseeable future.

We've been back and forth so many times debating between a 50 DA or a 44 DB that we may shift focus look for a 44DB. The 42/44 sure does have a strong following with very few complaints or issues with the boat. The 50 DA is a special breed with the odd bunk bed setup and it still has the dungeon feel to it. Love the boat but I'm not taking on the entire repair bill myself.

Would be very hard to say no to a 44 with QSC 500s, bridge ac and a hydraulic swim platform.

Oddly enough, I have a feeling the 07+ 44 will be a bit more expensive than the 03 50 DA.

 

[Maybe A Dancer]

There is one positive result here.

You had an opportunity to get out on the boat and see how she performs on the water.

Even if you were not handling helm duties, that sea trial gave you a genuine "feel" for that specific vessel.

In October I walked away from a wet transom on the 450 on Long Island - never made it to the sea trial.

In Baltimore, owner, owners wife and I spent more than THREE HOURS charging and swapping batteries to get her to start. Was close to sunset when she finally fired up and dark when we returned, but it was THAT sea trial that sealed the deal - not on that specific boat, (was a private sale - no broker involved - I never even made an offer on her) but having the opportunity to be aboard a running 450 with the 3126 engines and experience her handling characteristics, running attitude and general, overall "feel" .......... well that was it for me.

It was to be a 450DA with 3126 Cats.

So John, engines and this particular vessel aside, before changing your focus to a different vessel, what were your impressions of the 2003 50 DA?

Handling, running attitude, view from the helm on plane, ease of docking, all of it?

My feeling is that a boat is more than a hunk of machinery and fiberglass.

Every specific model has a "feel" to it, especially from the helm.

What was your take on the 50 DA, and how well would it fit your own needs today and into the future?

Likely EVERY boat for sale has a degree of CATCH UP MAINTENANCE required.

If otherwise she is the RIGHT boat and all she needs is $10 - 20k or catch up maintenance, amortize THAT out over 5 years and see how she looks.

BEST !

RWS

 

[ttmott]

$20K is about half what it will take to replace the coolers on two of the QSM11's. Just to purchase an aftercooler core is $6500... It is a rare day that the coolers need replacement on these engines. The question is - were the anodes serviced routinely. Is the bonding system in good shape? Did the surveyor test the engine coolant and have the oils analyzed? What did the fuel filters look like? Was the steering accumulator holding pressure? Could the shafts be rotated by hand? Did the boat run smooth and without vibrations? Any oil leaks on the QSM front covers? The one thing that tends to fail due to time is the exhaust risers and the SST exhaust tube to the muffler; count on replacing these. Easy to replace and for both engines around $3500.
As a note if the blades on the turbocharger were all chewed up that boat would have never made the numbers shown. FYI there is no way the surveyor could look at the exhaust side of the turbo and they would have to pull the air filter to see the compressor side which isn't a trivial job on the QSM. I question the turbo comments from the surveyor as they do not disassemble anything. Exhaust leaks - if minor I wouldn't worry they all will eventually leak.
So, to the performance numbers - This boat doesn't look too bad. on fuel burn. It almost looks like they re-propped the boat. Fuel burn is a bit high but in range IMHO but not shown are the loads. This is what we try to base our numbers on -
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/propping-cummins-qsm11-to-prevent-exhaust-leaks/#:~:text=You can burn 21-22 GPH, but you have,RPM (1900-2000 RPM) to under 20GPH (400 HP).?msclkid=e4fc2836a6a311ec8996622c009016c2

 

[SeaNile]

$20K is about half what it will take to replace the coolers on two of the QSM11's. Just to purchase an aftercooler core is $6500... It is a rare day that the coolers need replacement on these engines. The question is - were the anodes serviced routinely. Is the bonding system in good shape? Did the surveyor test the engine coolant and have the oils analyzed? What did the fuel filters look like? Was the steering accumulator holding pressure? Could the shafts be rotated by hand? Did the boat run smooth and without vibrations? Any oil leaks on the QSM front covers? The one thing that tends to fail due to time is the exhaust risers and the SST exhaust tube to the muffler; count on replacing these. Easy to replace and for both engines around $3500.
As a note if the blades on the turbocharger were all chewed up that boat would have never made the numbers shown. FYI there is no way the surveyor could look at the exhaust side of the turbo and they would have to pull the air filter to see the compressor side which isn't a trivial job on the QSM. I question the turbo comments from the surveyor as they do not disassemble anything. Exhaust leaks - if minor I wouldn't worry they all will eventually leak.
So, to the performance numbers - This boat doesn't look too bad. on fuel burn. It almost looks like they re-propped the boat. Fuel burn is a bit high but in range IMHO but not shown are the loads. This is what we try to base our numbers on -
https://www.sbmar.com/articles/propping-cummins-qsm11-to-prevent-exhaust-leaks/#:~:text=You can burn 21-22 GPH, but you have,RPM (1900-2000 RPM) to under 20GPH (400 HP).?msclkid=e4fc2836a6a311ec8996622c009016c2

He removed the air filter housing to look into the turbo. Blades are right there and can be seen easily. Somehow the one turbo was pretty beat up with every blade having very visible nicks. Almost looked like a small rock was in there and beat the blades up.

When I mentioned proactively replacing the coolers I meant the oil and fuel coolers since they are original. He quickly said they would be about $3500 per engine and then the labor to replace them. I know for sure he wasn't talking about the after cooler, just the smaller ones like the fuel cooler, etc.

No records of after cooler or heat exchanger service since 2013. I'd be in fresh water but I'm not sure if the combination of barnacle buster and fresh water is a safe or smart way to skip completely removing them and having them cleaned and tested.

Absolutely loved the boat, but adding 20k to the purchase price due to neglected items is not enjoyable. 20k is one sweet dinghy!

 

[Gofirstclass]

I'm beginning to realize boat shopping is damn near a full time job. Found "the one" and have been under contract for about 6 weeks now awaiting survey and sea trial, which was today. Sure it's early in the season but not a single system was commissioned, no water in the tanks and the water dockside was not turned on. Not the end of the world but for those of us who appreciate the attention to details, this was fail #1. Long story short, boat ran great, 2003 50 DA with QSM11s, but upon a few minutes of the Cummins guy looking around he finds all the blades in the one turbo chewed up and the other engine has the beginning stages of the dreaded exhaust manifold leak. All coolers are original and he recommends replacing them all since they are 20yrs old. The kicker.....turns up 2270 RPM at WOT with fuel burn of 25.3 at 2100rpm and 20.5 at 1920rpm with about 1/2 fuel and 4 adults on boat. Aftercoolers and heat exchangers last record of service is 2013.

What does this mean? Engine guy has an extremely quick estimate of at least 20K. Broker grunted that since the seller has already come off of his asking price it's extremely unlikely he will budge on price at all. I can see the recommendation of all coolers being replaced proactively(fuel, transmission coolers, etc) for about 10k being a little aggressive. Or is it?

The final kick to the groin was the swim platform goes down for about 3" and immediately stops and goes back to the original position.

The manager of the dealership started the day with "this boat is perfect, guy spends a ton of money on it and you won't find a thing wrong with it."

My guess is knowing how this particular broker is....absolutely nothing will be accomplished tomorrow. No sense of urgency at all which is extremely frustrating to me.

Back up plan....may go look at two 44 Sedan Bridge boats with the QSC500 engines.

Important lesson learned here--never underestimate the value of a good surveyor!

 

[SeaNile]

Spoke to the engine guy again this morning and had a good conversation. He may have been off on his estimate due to the price of parts so that helps a little. The port engine has the very beginning slight sign of an exhaust manifold leak. In theory with the props corrected the leak should get no worse. The turbo could possibly be rebuilt, mentioned we only saw the outer blades and the guts could still be in good shape. As for the blown intake gasket, inexpensive but a PITA to get to and in reality should result in minimal lost boost.

Still strongly recommends replacing all fuel and gear oil coolers since they are original. He thought those parts alone would be 7500 when it's more like 5200.

He's still thinking about 10k in parts, gaskets and incidentals in addition to the labor. Didn't have an estimate for how long it would take.

Still adds up quickly, having the props done and who knows what's up with the swim platform. It gets power and wants to go down but just doesn't.

10k in engine parts, $1500 for props (total guess), short haul for repairs, fixing swim platform, fixing the two underwater lights.....never ends.

 

[ttmott]

There is a lot of discussion if a fuel cooler is needed or not for the QSM11 in recreational use. If mine were to require replacement I'd probably not re-install. The fuel removes heat from the injectors and the engine's ECM, that is it. One could go through a full tank of fuel before seeing much if any rise in the bulk volume temperature.

 

[SeaNile]

Although I am still waiting for the official engine report with oil analysis both the broker and his manager are aware of what's coming because we all discussed it on Thursday. Called them on Friday to see if they have spoken to the owner, who is out of the country but available by cell, text and email, and of course they have not.

When I left the survey at about 1pm on Thursday they tried to reach the owner but didn't get in touch with him "but I'll try again tomorrow" was the response. Their office is closed on Sunday and Monday but here I am 5 days post survey and absolutely zero communication from the broker.

Tired of this sh*t. Who does business like this????

 

[Golfman25]

Although I am still waiting for the official engine report with oil analysis both the broker and his manager are aware of what's coming because we all discussed it on Thursday. Called them on Friday to see if they have spoken to the owner, who is out of the country but available by cell, text and email, and of course they have not.

When I left the survey at about 1pm on Thursday they tried to reach the owner but didn't get in touch with him "but I'll try again tomorrow" was the response. Their office is closed on Sunday and Monday but here I am 5 days post survey and absolutely zero communication from the broker.

Tired of this sh*t. Who does business like this????

Sounds like they have time to make all the repairs for you.

 

[Creekwood]

You have about all the red flags you need to walk away unless you can get a substantial drop in price. And what you know about is only what you have been able to find. A neglected boat has a lot more that you probably missed.

The fact that some other idiot out there will pay full price for it, means you are letting other idiots make your decision if you decide to pay the same price as their current asking price. I am not insulting you at all. You are doing your proper due diligence and making a decision with that in mind. Its just really unfortunate that the nature of the market these days is that the prices are now being determined by those too stupid to know better.

PS. Oh yeah, I am so glad I am not trying to buy a boat in this market. I have followed your quest and others on here and its leading to tough decisions. The market price is what it is, unfortunately. Market sanity may prevail eventually. Probably will. Its the same in the housing market. Not a great time to be entering either market right now.

 

[mrsrobinson]

@SeaNile remember I had a similar experience and you're the one who told me to buy the boat, which I did. Your advice was spot on and I'm happy about the purchase.

It sounds like overall you've got a pretty good boat and you like it. See if the seller will compromise. Do the service incrementally and don't do what I did and get scared and try to walk away. And try to remove your emotions and frustrations from the equation. Again you're the one who helped me settle down a bit and make a good decision.

 

[SeaNile]

@SeaNile remember I had a similar experience and you're the one who told me to buy the boat, which I did. Your advice was spot on and I'm happy about the purchase.

It sounds like overall you've got a pretty good boat and you like it. See if the seller will compromise. Do the service incrementally and don't do what I did and get scared and try to walk away. And try to remove your emotions and frustrations from the equation. Again you're the one who helped me settle down a bit and make a good decision.

The ironic thing is I am trying to buy the boat! Both the hull survey and engine survey are very positive. The engines need a little bit of deferred maintenance.

I’m not frustrated with the boat or engines I am frustrated with the broker and their lack of urgency. Both the broker and manager said they can easily get a hold of the seller even though he is traveling out of the country.

I am hoping to have the full engine survey back by Wednesday with the oil analysis and a breakdown of what is critical and what can be done at a later date. Once I get that information to the broker they really have no excuse for Not being able to wrap this up within a week.

 

[Stee6043]

Man...complaining about brokers is soooo 2021, guys. We've moved on to fuel prices! Come on now...

 

[SeaNile]

Deferred maintenance sure does add up.....$31,500 is the estimate. At that price QSM or MAN doesn't make a difference. In the 7 months I've been boat shopping I've yet to find a boat that is up to date on all engine maintenance. MAN, QSM, 480ce, doesn't make a difference, they all need $$$.

 

[mrsrobinson]

Yup, that was my experience as well. The average boat owner is not like us/you and I when it comes to service/maintenance/upkeep. And they are not willing to give much to you as a buyer for it. If you get enough of a "discount" from the seller I say go for it.

 

[Mike Ihnat]

Have ya looked at/sea trialed a44DB yet? Those qsc’s are nice running girls too

 

[Zach312]

Following this thread with interest. Going through something similar now with QSC's. I guess I am in the mindset if everything else is right and you like the boat/model then spend the money and get her up to snuff. Even with elevated prices in the current market a 2003 doesn't have far to fall even as the market pulls back.

Right or wrong I looked at it this way. I can in no way afford a 1.5m new 50 ft boat. So I am going to have to accept some of the work that needs to be done if I am buying a 2008. The upside is I have far less deprecation than new. Might not be the right way to look at it but its what I could wrap my head around. Having all the raw water services done to a set of QSC's in the next two weeks.