converting 270SD from Rack over to hydraulic steering

[mbm2004]

2006 270SD 496 DTS

Given the added complexity of the steering wheel's stereo/smartcraft controls... has anyone ever converted over to hydraulic steering? The OE Rack system is worn, so if i have to replace... might as well upgrade!

I havn't taken anything apart yet to see how the wiring/clockspring works. The drive end is an easy swap... it's just the helm end that might cause problems.

Thx!

 

[Bt Doctur]

Given the added complexity of the steering wheel's stereo/smartcraft controls

Dumbest thing I ever heard of, these things are"boats" not cars
Remove the rack from the helm , remove helm. install new helm, run the hyd lines to the slave

 

[JohnnyAlpha]

Have you found a hydraulic steering system for a stern drive? Most of the kits I see are manual and designed for outboards. I would be interested to see how this works out, I hate the lost motion in the rack and pinion teleflex system. My 270 doesn’t have steering wheel mounted controls and looking at the parts diagram doesn’t have much detail but it appears the clock spring is just a donut that slips over the steering wheel shaft. I would think if you found a hydraulic unit with the same shaft dimensions it shouldn’t be that hard to make it work. There’s nothing dumb about your idea, any time I replace anything I always try and make it an upgrade too. Don’t be discouraged by some people, it’s part of the challenge of owning a premium brand and being a DIY personality. I find it far more common to see responses like that on forums geared towards more premium brands. Ask the same highly technical question on a Ford forum and a Mercedes forum one is sure to be full of “take it to the dealer” or “don’t mess with xxx the engineers who designed it walk on water”

 

[2016FLD]

Have you found a hydraulic steering system for a stern drive? Most of the kits I see are manual and designed for outboards. I would be interested to see how this works out, I hate the lost motion in the rack and pinion teleflex system. My 270 doesn’t have steering wheel mounted controls and looking at the parts diagram doesn’t have much detail but it appears the clock spring is just a donut that slips over the steering wheel shaft. I would think if you found a hydraulic unit with the same shaft dimensions it shouldn’t be that hard to make it work. There’s nothing dumb about your idea, any time I replace anything I always try and make it an upgrade too. Don’t be discouraged by some people, it’s part of the challenge of owning a premium brand and being a DIY personality. I find it far more common to see responses like that on forums geared towards more premium brands. Ask the same highly technical question on a Ford forum and a Mercedes forum one is sure to be full of “take it to the dealer” or “don’t mess with xxx the engineers who designed it walk on water”

Agreed, the slop is terrible in the rack and pinion teleflex system, will be following this to see what hydraulic options may be feasible.

I know the single Alpha's are prone to wandering, mine wanders ALOT, I probably need a new steering flex cable; must look funny to passengers bouncing the wheel all the time, reminds me of driving old cars.

 

[Lazy Daze]

FYI, "wandering" has nothing to do with the steering system. If the drive is able to be easily bounced back and forth (with the engine running) or has slop in it, something is wrong. Wandering is indicative of many boats - it's simply due to the way that the water slides off the hull side and creates a pull on that corner. It all depends on the shape of the hull - but it's an extremely common thing.

Opinion... stick with power steering. I have hydraulic steering on my Grady and I don't like it as much since it requires much more steering input (wheel turning) to do the same thing - meaning the "lock to lock" turns is probably at least double or triple that of power steering. The cost to retrofit your setup is not insignificant and the end result really isn't better. I certainly wouldn't conside this an "upgrade".

 

[JohnnyAlpha]

FYI, "wandering" has nothing to do with the steering system. If the drive is able to be easily bounced back and forth (with the engine running) or has slop in it, something is wrong. Wandering is indicative of many boats - it's simply due to the way that the water slides off the hull side and creates a pull on that corner. It all depends on the shape of the hull - but it's an extremely common thing.

Opinion... stick with power steering. I have hydraulic steering on my Grady and I don't like it as much since it requires much more steering input (wheel turning) to do the same thing - meaning the "lock to lock" turns is probably at least double or triple that of power steering. The cost to retrofit your setup is not insignificant and the end result really isn't better. I certainly wouldn't conside this an "upgrade".

Is that manual hydraulic steering on the Grady? A quick search mostly provided kits for outboards. Have you ever come across a hydraulic setup that’s compatible with the Mercruser stern drive? Aside from steering ratio how is the actual feel as far as slop? I would think aside from hydraulic hose expansion and steering pin slop there should be almost none.

 

[Espos4]

Regarding “wandering”...

When I first started out with my boat, I was sawing the wheel back and forth constantly trying to go straight within the canal.

It was annoying and I felt that the boat wandered too.

I learned to do it with small steering inputs and some counter steering.

Basically turn the wheel a “tick” (about 1/4 turn) to the left and pause......as you feel the boat start to turn left, turn the wheel a tick to the right...... pause again and the boat will eventually begin to move to the right. Once you feel this, repeat with turning the wheel a tick to the left....

Small inputs and pause....

 

[Arminius]

Last time I replaced cables on an outboard I went from a two cable system to a single cable anti-feedback system which was a big improvement. Helm effort was reduced by installing a larger wheel. Hydraulic was ruled out because of cost, complexity and the increased number of turns lock to lock. My current Alpha 1 power steering has a couple inches of play on the outside of the wheel but someone, probably LazyDaze, told me this was normal and I've gotten used to it.
*****
Looked up 270SD 496 DTS and find it comes with power assisted hydraulic.

 

[2016FLD]

FYI, "wandering" has nothing to do with the steering system. If the drive is able to be easily bounced back and forth (with the engine running) or has slop in it, something is wrong. Wandering is indicative of many boats - it's simply due to the way that the water slides off the hull side and creates a pull on that corner. It all depends on the shape of the hull - but it's an extremely common thing.

Opinion... stick with power steering. I have hydraulic steering on my Grady and I don't like it as much since it requires much more steering input (wheel turning) to do the same thing - meaning the "lock to lock" turns is probably at least double or triple that of power steering. The cost to retrofit your setup is not insignificant and the end result really isn't better. I certainly wouldn't conside this an "upgrade".

Thanks for your experience with hydraulic, would not have thought it could lead to more turns of the wheel; don't want that! As for slop / slack in my steering, checked it today, none in my outdrive (the entire transom-gimbal assembly with rams is new), I do have about 3-5 degrees of rotation in the wheel before it engages, e.g. point it straight up like noon on a clock, will move to 3-5 minute mark before engaging; will check the rack gears for slop, at 35 yrs old, who knows. I found another thread about wandering with single Bravos and Alphas, my experience matches what is described; I'll try the suggestions there and here. http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/260da-bravo-iii-wander-at-slow-speeds.2078/

 

[Lazy Daze]

You're welcome, Michael. Yes, a bit of wheel "play" like you're describing is normal. The wandering that you're experiencing is just the name of the game. Some hulls are more prone to it, some less. Teh Bravo III setup does help to eliminate it, but not completely. I think you'll get used to in time. You can try different drive trim angles and even trim tab position - you might find an improvement by doing that - but it still won't make it disappear. I've gotten so used to it that I don't even think about it anymore - I turn the wheel back and forth to counter the wander without any thought - it becomes a natural kind of thing. I'm sure you have other things you can spend your "boat money" on!

Johnny, I'm not aware of a hydraulic setup for stern drives - but truthfully, I've never even looked.

Arminius, that's just a different way of saying "power steering" - it's not "hydraulic" like we're discussing in this thread. Technically it's hydraulic since it uses fluid, that's all. But that 496 still uses standard power steering.

 

[JohnnyAlpha]

As for slop / slack in my steering, checked it today, none in my outdrive (the entire transom-gimbal assembly with rams is new), I do have about 3-5 degrees of rotation in the wheel before it engages, e.g. point it straight up like noon on a clock, will move to 3-5 minute mark before engaging; will check the rack gears for slop, at 35 yrs old, who knows. I found another thread about wandering with single Bravos and Alphas, my experience matches what is described; I'll try the suggestions there and here. http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/260da-bravo-iii-wander-at-slow-speeds.2078/

Check the four bolts that hold the pinion gear carrier to the steering rack. The one on my Sundeck loosened up enough to allow the two parts to move back and forth in the bolt holes. I was only able to notice by watching the rack assembly while bouncing the wheel back and forth. It’s a shame that nobody has improved the design of these things to more mimic the rack and pinion on cars, with a separate replaceable cable.

 

[Arminius]

Looking at a diagram, there is a single mechanical cable from the helm back to the control valve. As the case in car spool valves, the control valve is a feedback device with inputs from the cable and from the outdrive (position.) Metered hydraulic pressure will bring the outdrive into alignment with the position of the control valve. Could you install an additional hydraulic circuit controlling the control valve from the helm? Well it would require modification of the control valve which seems like a bad idea. That play may well be built into the control valve in order to facilitate feedback operation. With a car, the steering wheel spins the pinion gear through a flexible torque pin/tube which includes metering orifices which admit fluid from the pump to one side or the other of the ram and straighten the torque tube and steer the car. Here, I think the control valve admits fluid into the ram section to locate the outdrive in the center of the perceived play. Spring loaded control valve centering would be the design answer and I bet they have it by now.
************
Posters here eliminated the pump:
https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/...-gc12/445003-conversion-to-hydraulic-steering

 

[techmitch]

Looking at a diagram, there is a single mechanical cable from the helm back to the control valve. As the case in auto spool valves, the control valve is a feedback device with inputs from the cable and from the outdrive (position.) Metered hydraulic pressure will bring the outdrive into alignment with the position of the control valve. Could you install an additional hydraulic circuit controlling the control valve from the helm? Well it would require modification of the control valve which seems like a bad idea. That play may well be built into the control valve in order to facilitate feedback operation. With an auto, the steering wheel spins the pinion gear through a torque tube which includes metering orifices.

 

[2016FLD]

I'm sure you have other things you can spend your "boat money" on!

Sure do!!

 

[2016FLD]

Check the four bolts that hold the pinion gear carrier to the steering rack.

Thanks, I'll check that!

 

[mbm2004]

Given the added complexity of the steering wheel's stereo/smartcraft controls

Dumbest thing I ever heard of, these things are"boats" not cars
Remove the rack from the helm , remove helm. install new helm, run the hyd lines to the slave

any other suggestions? It uses a traditional Delphi clockspring FYI

 

[mbm2004]

Have you found a hydraulic steering system for a stern drive? Most of the kits I see are manual and designed for outboards. I would be interested to see how this works out, I hate the lost motion in the rack and pinion teleflex system. My 270 doesn’t have steering wheel mounted controls and looking at the parts diagram doesn’t have much detail but it appears the clock spring is just a donut that slips over the steering wheel shaft. I would think if you found a hydraulic unit with the same shaft dimensions it shouldn’t be that hard to make it work. There’s nothing dumb about your idea, any time I replace anything I always try and make it an upgrade too. Don’t be discouraged by some people, it’s part of the challenge of owning a premium brand and being a DIY personality. I find it far more common to see responses like that on forums geared towards more premium brands. Ask the same highly technical question on a Ford forum and a Mercedes forum one is sure to be full of “take it to the dealer” or “don’t mess with xxx the engineers who designed it walk on water”

I have been working with Sea Star tech support and looks like i have a combo that will work, just looking to nail down the appropriate ratio with helm selection before we get carried away.

It will use the traditional HC5328-3 hydraulic cylinder that simple replaces the steering cable on the transom end... plug and play.

The helm looks to be a off the shelf Sea Star part with a splined shaft for the steering wheel. Sea Ray incorporated a clock spring from Delphi's automotive division to work with their steering wheel and the Sea Star helm.

 

[JohnnyAlpha]

I’m glad to see your still researching the conversion. Don’t forget to get a tilt helm if you need that. I had done a search on other forms about it and the majority of people who switched considered it an improvement over cable. The one negative that kept popping up was the increased steering ratio but if the helm you select has a close to original ratio that concern is eliminated. I’m definitely interested to see how things pan out.

 

[mbm2004]

I’m glad to see your still researching the conversion. Don’t forget to get a tilt helm if you need that. I had done a search on other forms about it and the majority of people who switched considered it an improvement over cable. The one negative that kept popping up was the increased steering ratio but if the helm you select has a close to original ratio that concern is eliminated. I’m definitely interested to see how things pan out.

Yes it will still have a tilt helm with remote fill port.

 

[Arminius]

You might ask Seastar if this modification is going to eliminate the play. I'm thinking the play is in the control valve at the transom and not in your helm. But, they would know.