Hatch lift relay gone bad

[Matt N]

I've lost power to the actuators of my engine hatch (2016 Sundancer 350). It's a whole other story what I went through getting it open closed manually b/c that thing is heavy!

My electrician narrowed it down to a relay near the hatch lift switch in the cockpit. He jumped the relay and got it to work. So it seemed the relay was probably bad.

I replaced the relay and the same issue persists. Jumping the new relay is also working, so really not sure what we're missing here.

From my minimal understanding, the relay limits the amount of amps going to switch, so it doesn't receive the full amps of actuators. It's working for me jumped, I'm just concerned about frying the switch.

Maybe my understanding of what the relay is doing is incorrect? Not really sure what to try next here...

Attached pics of original relay jumped, new relay with wires in correct place (not working), and relay schematic.

 

[JimG]

Yes, the relay is there to do the heavy load switching. Your dash switch only has to pull the relay in.
Assuming you're jumping the relay contacts to make it work (hard to tell from the pictures) it appears that the relay never pulls in.
Check power to the dash switch... could be a bad switch or you're just not getting power to it.

 

[Matt N]

Yes, the relay is there to do the heavy load switching. Your dash switch only has to pull the relay in.
Assuming you're jumping the relay contacts to make it work (hard to tell from the pictures) it appears that the relay never pulls in.
Check power to the dash switch... could be a bad switch or you're just not getting power to it.

While the relay is jumped, the switch does work, so I was thinking the switch is ok.

In the first picture, the jumper adapter is on the right prong of the relay. Both red wires on the right are attached to it.

 

[JimG]

What do you mean by "the switch does work" when the relay is jumped?
When you jump the relay, the hatch will move correct?

 

[Matt N]

What do you mean by "the switch does work" when the relay is jumped?
When you jump the relay, the hatch will move correct?

Yes when then relay is jumped, the hatch will move. By "switch", I mean the physical switch toggle on the cockpit panel with the hatch lift icon that I can normally toggle to raise the hatch. The "relay" is the black piece in the pictures.

You may be thinking I'm using the switch/relay terms interchangeably, but I'm probably using the wrong term for the physical toggle switch. The toggle switch works when the relay is jumped to raise the hatch.

 

[JimG]

So, are you saying that when you jump the relay, you then use the switch to move the hatch?

If so, I'll have to look at your schematics to understand what's going on.

(and yes, I understand the difference between the switch and the relay)

 

[Matt N]

So, are you saying that when you jump the relay, you then use the switch to move the hatch?

If so, I'll have to look at your schematics to understand what's going on.

(and yes, I understand the difference between the switch and the relay)

Yes exactly, when I jump the relay the switch moves the hatch.

 

[Bill Curtis]

Looks like a wire is missing on the relay in the wired pic.

Maybe that big red wire coming off side should go to terminal 87, the one with marks on it, but no wire. Hard to troubleshoot from a computer screen.

85 goes to ground
86 goes to power from helm switch.
30 is the main power feeding to relay, from fuse / breaker, to feed the lift ram
87 is switched power that goes the the lift ram

PS: All black cube relays are numbered alike

 

[Tucker K5]

I’m not very electrically minded but is it possible that power to the switch is lost and the jumper wire is back feeding power to the switch making it work?

 

[Matt N]

Looks like a wire is missing on the relay in the wired pic.

Maybe that big red wire coming off side should go to terminal 87, the one with marks on it, but no wire. Hard to troubleshoot from a computer screen.

85 goes to ground
86 goes to power from helm switch.
30 is the main power feeding to relay, from fuse / breaker, to feed the lift ram
87 is switched power that goes the the lift ram

PS: All black cube relays are numbered alike

Normally the switch wire is on 87 (the forward empty prong in the first pic), but the hatch is not working that way. To bypass the relay, we have the switch wire on a jumper adapter on 86. This is what you see on the first pic where that wire is on the jumper off to the right.

 

[Matt N]

I’m not very electrically minded but is it possible that power to the switch is lost and the jumper wire is back feeding power to the switch making it work?

I think the switch itself doesn't have a dedicated power source, it just open/closes the circuit, but I could be wrong. If it does, you could be right.

I think my next step is to test with a different switch that I know is working. Something fishy seems to be going on with the switch that it's working at full amps, but not at limited amps from the relay.

 

[Creekwood]

I think the switch itself doesn't have a dedicated power source, it just open/closes the circuit, but I could be wrong. If it does, you could be right.

I think my next step is to test with a different switch that I know is working. Something fishy seems to be going on with the switch that it's working at full amps, but not at limited amps from the relay.

Make sure that it is wired as shown above by @Bill Curtis in his post above. It sounds like the relay is not wired properly.

 

[hughespat57]

so afraid knot..

That terminal is intentionally unused.
This relay is not for the motors but to lockout the motors if the cockpit door is opened.
There should be a safety switch at the door, either bad or mis adjusted.

BLK is Ground
GRN and BLU go to the motors directly from the switch
RED/VIO 30 and 86 pins are 12v power
RED/VIO 87 powers the switch IF the relay is not locked out
BLK/YEL Pin 85 is the trigger wire from the door switch to ground if door is CLOSED (edit)
I re-read this several times and its a bit confusing, when the door is closed, the relay is energized, and the relay supplies power to the switch.

 

[Lazy Daze]

I was simply going to ask "Is your cockpit door opened? It needs to be closed to open the hatch." But it seems Patrick beat me to the punch... which a much more intricate response, as well!

 

[Creekwood]

Sorry to side track, but if the relay is energized when the door is closed, does that mean it is consuming power all the time? I wonder how much a relay consumes in terms of amps. Probably not significant, but if you are anchored or on a mooring, its kind of parasitic load. My 330 does not have a lock out, so this is more hypothetical for me.

 

[hughespat57]

seems it would comes feed directly off a breaker
a Bosch relay coil will be about 100-150 ma ( 0.1 -0.15 Amp)

 

[Matt N]

so afraid knot..

That terminal is intentionally unused.
This relay is not for the motors but to lockout the motors if the cockpit door is opened.
There should be a safety switch at the door, either bad or mis adjusted.

View attachment 124868

BLK is Ground
GRN and BLU go to the motors directly from the switch
RED/VIO 30 and 86 pins are 12v power
RED/VIO 87 powers the switch IF the relay is not locked out
BLK/YEL Pin 85 is the trigger wire from the door switch to ground if door is CLOSED (edit)
I re-read this several times and its a bit confusing, when the door is closed, the relay is energized, and the relay supplies power to the switch.

View attachment 124871

View attachment 124869

View attachment 124870

Ahh very interesting. I read about the hatch safety switch on other posts, but wasn't sure if it was present in my model sundancer. I looked over by the area where the door is in from the engine bilge, but didn't see any wires in the area. I'll take a closer look and see if I can locate a switch in the latch the door sits on when open/closed.

Which year/model is that schematic from? I've been trying to find the manual for my boat (2016 Sundancer 350). The sea ray website doesn't have the 2016 manual, so I've been looking at other years figuring they're likely "similar". Never saw anything about the hatch actuator relay.

 

[bbwhitejr]

I was simply going to ask "Is your cockpit door opened? It needs to be closed to open the hatch." But it seems Patrick beat me to the punch... which a much more intricate response, as well!

I think you mean the cockpit door at the transom must be "open" to raise the hatch? There is a magnetic switch that must be made and is only made when the door is open against the gunnel....

Bennett

 

[Lazy Daze]

I think you mean the cockpit door at the transom must be "open" to raise the hatch? There is a magnetic switch that must be made and is only made when the door is open against the gunnel....

Bennett

Oops - yes, you are right, B. Thanks for the correction.

Matt, it will just be a thin, 2-wire. It's just a simple open/close switch. It is possible your boat doesn't have it - it depends on whether or not the door would actually be in the way. It's usually a "safe bet" to recommend that, that's all!

You're correct that sometimes you have to look to other model years - especially if your model is a new one. Sometimes the brochures come out before the model year. This feature will usually be mentioned in the manual - along with the wiring diagram.

 

[hughespat57]

@bbwhitejr - door "open" could correct, I dont have one personally. Yes its the transom door, but Sea Ray calls that the "Cockpit Door" in the schematics.

@Matt Norton
I had to check the 2015 and the 2016 350SLX had a better schematic.
The door has the magnet glued into it, that may have fallen out.
The switch I think just looks like a white plastic dot (no physical push button)

Others may be able to provide pictures.