Inverter Question

[JerryS]

The Sea Ray manuals show that your boat is a 370EC (Express Cruiser), rather than a Sundancer (DA).
You have a total of five (5) batteries and three (3) battery switches. I'm guessing that you have one battery which is a starting battery for your generator. Then you have two sets of two batteries each for each engine. I would guess that the battery switch selections for the engines are the typical off, batt 1, batt 2 or both selections.

Are you saying that all five (5) batteries are failing in a short amount of time?
How often are you checking the acid level in the batteries?
How often do you have to add distilled water?
Does your battery charger/convertor have an amp guage? If so, what is it reading as a current output?

BTW: A 30 amp charger was the standard model put in your boat by SeaRay. To me, that is a really light duty charger considering that you have five batteries on board and you have a lot of 12v lighting, etc. that can put a heavy draw on your batteries. Additionally, if it is the original charger/converter, it is thirteen years old. I would be very suspect of your charger.

So far, with the exception of one poster, all of the responses to your inquiry have been from owners of boats that are much smaller. I believe that I saw Four Sons (Gary) post something about a replacement charger that he put in his boat. Possibly you should try to contact him for assistance.

 

[connie garcy]

The Sea Ray manuals show that your boat is a 370EC (Express Cruiser), rather than a Sundancer (DA).
You have a total of five (5) batteries and three (3) battery switches. I'm guessing that you have one battery which is a starting battery for your generator. Then you have two sets of two batteries each for each engine. I would guess that the battery switch selections for the engines are the typical off, batt 1, batt 2 or both selections.

Are you saying that all five (5) batteries are failing in a short amount of time?
How often are you checking the acid level in the batteries?
How often do you have to add distilled water?
Does your battery charger/convertor have an amp guage? If so, what is it reading as a current output?

BTW: A 30 amp charger was the standard model put in your boat by SeaRay. To me, that is a really light duty charger considering that you have five batteries on board and you have a lot of 12v lighting, etc. that can put a heavy draw on your batteries. Additionally, if it is the original charger/converter, it is thirteen years old. I would be very suspect of your charger.

So far, with the exception of one poster, all of the responses to your inquiry have been from owners of boats that are much smaller. I believe that I saw Four Sons (Gary) post something about a replacement charger that he put in his boat. Possibly you should try to contact him for assistance.

Hi Jerry,

Our boat is a 1999 Sundancer 370DA, it is one of the last ones built. In 1999 they also came out with the Sundancer 380 DA. You are correct in saying we have 5 batteries, two for each eng and one for the gen. The battery for the gen is fine, it is the other 4 that we have been changing. Last night when I went down to the boat I was in the ER to get all the info off the charger/converter. There is a gage on it and it was reading 13.??? and the yellow light was on. I am not sure how many times my husband checks the acid level in these batteries.

 

[JerryS]

Ok, I don't know much about the charging systems on a boat like yours. I have just one engine, one battery switch, and two batteries. None for the generator.

If the guage is reading 13, that means that it is putting out 13 amps at 13.5V(?) which is 175 watts (imagine a 175W light bulb. Or, it could have been 13+V and the yellow light meant that it was charging -hard to say.

You say that your problem is with just the four engine batteries and not the generator battery. I therefore suspect that your battery charger just charges the four engine batteries and not the generator battery. The generator probably charges that battery when it is running. I could be wrong, but, that is my best guess.

If you have your battery switches turned to off and you are still showing a 13 amp output from your charger than that is what is being put into the batteries and that amount of charge will surely fry them in short order. (Keep in mind that the battery charger is directly connected to the batteries so it does not make any difference whether the battery switches are turned off or on - the charger is going to charge to a load.)

If your batteries are fairly new and this is happening, I have to believe that your charger may be the culprit. Again, I would suggest that you get in contact with someone like Gary that has a similar charging system.

 

[techmitch]

Hi Bob, The Model is Pro Marnier 30, the info that is on the front is "Complete Auto 120VDC, 3 bank, 20 AMP power supply, 30 AMP Multi Charger, Input 85-140 VAC, 60 Cycles, 3 AMPS, Finishing Voltage 13.5 Normal". I coud not find a model # on it. If anyone as any info on this charger please let me know.

Hi Jerry,

Our boat is a 1999 Sundancer 370DA, it is one of the last ones built. In 1999 they also came out with the Sundancer 380 DA. You are correct in saying we have 5 batteries, two for each eng and one for the gen. The battery for the gen is fine, it is the other 4 that we have been changing. Last night when I went down to the boat I was in the ER to get all the info off the charger/converter. There is a gage on it and it was reading 13.??? and the yellow light was on. I am not sure how many times my husband checks the acid level in these batteries.

Ah ha! Three bank charger trying to charge 4 batteries, thats a big no no.
Wonder how they are wired?

 

[JerryS]

Ah ha! Three bank charger trying to charge 4 batteries, thats a big no no.
Wonder how they are wired?

Yeah, that is what I am wondering. From what is being described, it does not appear to me that the charger is being used to charge the generator battery. I would think that is a normal arrangement, but, since I don't have that set up, I don't know. At any rate, a 30 amp charger on that boat just is not going to cut it.

If it is a three bank charger and each bank is tied to the three groups of batteries, then can just two banks be overcharging and the third bank be okay?

I would can that charger and get a decent charging system installed.

 

[connie garcy]

I just sent a message to Gary and when I get home I will have my husband read this over and see he can add more to it.

Thanks for your help and I will keep this going. We just replaced all four batteries on Aug 18 just before we took off for a week trip on the Erie Canal.

 

[techmitch]

Yeah, that is what I am wondering. From what is being described, it does not appear to me that the charger is being used to charge the generator battery. I would think that is a normal arrangement, but, since I don't have that set up, I don't know. At any rate, a 30 amp charger on that boat just is not going to cut it.

If it is a three bank charger and each bank is tied to the three groups of batteries, then can just two banks be overcharging and the third bank be okay?

I would can that charger and get a decent charging system installed.

A three bank charger is for three batteries only! There are no two batteries alike (not even 2 brand new batteries fron the same lot) So with 4 batteries a 4 bank charger is needed.

 

[JerryS]

Well, what you are indicating here is an extremely serious problem. So, my wife and I will volunteer to come up there and troubleshoot the problem. Just leave us the keys, we will need at least a month of cruising to deterime what type of corrective action may be necessary. :smt001

 

[JerryS]

A three bank charger is for three batteries only! There are no two batteries alike (not even 2 brand new batteries fron the same lot) So with 4 batteries a 4 bank charger is needed.

If you go on-line and look at the manual for the boat, it shows two trays of two batteries each. A tray of two batteries for each engine. And then separately, there is a fifth battery for the generator. A 30amp, three bank charger is listed as standard equipment for that boat. I have always thought for some reason that the on board charger was not connected to the generator battery. But, maybe it is. I am guessing that two of the banks of the charger charge each tray of two batteries and the third bank charges the generator battery. I agree that a single bank should not be charging two batteries. It appears to be a less than adequate set-up, but, it is what was engineered into the boat at the time of manufacture. Again, I don't know how the system is set-up, I don't have a system like that boat does.

 

[connie garcy]

Well, what you are indicating here is an extremely serious problem. So, my wife and I will volunteer to come up there and troubleshoot the problem. Just leave us the keys, we will need at least a month of cruising to deterime what type of corrective action may be necessary. :smt001

LOL, I just got to read this, I was at work today and we got busy so I could not stay on. I just started a Thread for Gary and I hope he sees it. If you ever get a chance to come up this way, please let me know and maybe we can get a hold of Wayne because he doesn't live to far from here.

 

[Loneranger]

http://www.pmariner.com/support.php

If you believe the converter is a problem or not up to the task ask promariner directly. This will probably get you faster and perhaps better results. They have great customer service and have even been known to assist in trading up to a newer converter.

John

 

[plumbhappy]

If you go on-line and look at the manual for the boat, it shows two trays of two batteries each. A tray of two batteries for each engine. And then separately, there is a fifth battery for the generator. A 30amp, three bank charger is listed as standard equipment for that boat. I have always thought for some reason that the on board charger was not connected to the generator battery. But, maybe it is. I am guessing that two of the banks of the charger charge each tray of two batteries and the third bank charges the generator battery. I agree that a single bank should not be charging two batteries. It appears to be a less than adequate set-up, but, it is what was engineered into the boat at the time of manufacture. Again, I don't know how the system is set-up, I don't have a system like that boat does.

I don't see anything wrong with having two batteries in a bank, but with three banks on a 370, a 30 amp charger does seem a little lite. Two 12v batteries in parallel drained to 50% would be a serious draw on a 30a charger. It sounds like the charger is cooking the batteries, but it could be how it's wired. Is it the original charger? Have you checked the charge meter on the charger?

Rob

 

[fc3]

Your boat's electrical system is pretty simple. The 370 and 380 have very similar configurations. You have two batteries paralleled for the starboard engine and house loads. You have two more batteries parallelled for the port engine and house loads. The 380 had remote solenoid battery switches that allows easy selection of port or starboard for house loads. Not sure exactly how the 370 works it, but for the most part, that isn't material. The two and two configuration is the key element. The fifth battery is for the genset. The three bank charger charges three sets of batteries. Nothing funny there if you understand the SeaRay way of doing things.

There are a few potential problems. Firstly paralleled batteries must be matched and in the same condition. If they are not, the weaker battery will self-discharge and pull charge from the stronger one, discharging and weakening both. To avoid this problem, it's advisable to leave the batteries on the charger. A fully charged lead acid cell voltage is 2.2 volts per cell. Thus a six cell 12 volt battery is actually 13.2 volts when fully charged. In order to float a fully charged battery, the charger needs to hold a float voltage of no more than 13.5.

You need to confirm that all batteries are in good condition with clean and tight connections.
You need to confirm that the charger's float voltage does not exceed 13.5 with a good quality and known to be accurate digital voltmeter.
To prevent self discharge and parasitic battery discharge, you need to keep the converter turned on.
Finally, because it's necessary to run the converter, you need to periodically check and replenish the electrolyte level with distilled water.

 

[Uplate]

Your boat's electrical system is pretty simple. The 370 and 380 have very similar configurations. You have two batteries paralleled for the starboard engine and house loads. You have two more batteries parallelled for the port engine and house loads. The 380 had remote solenoid battery switches that allows easy selection of port or starboard for house loads. Not sure exactly how the 370 works it, but for the most part, that isn't material. The two and two configuration is the key element. The fifth battery is for the genset. The three bank charger charges three sets of batteries. Nothing funny there if you understand the SeaRay way of doing things.

There are a few potential problems. Firstly paralleled batteries must be matched and in the same condition. If they are not, the weaker battery will self-discharge and pull charge from the stronger one, discharging and weakening both. To avoid this problem, it's advisable to leave the batteries on the charger. A fully charged lead acid cell voltage is 2.2 volts per cell. Thus a six cell 12 volt battery is actually 13.2 volts when fully charged. In order to float a fully charged battery, the charger needs to hold a float voltage of no more than 13.5.

You need to confirm that all batteries are in good condition with clean and tight connections.
You need to confirm that the charger's float voltage does not exceed 13.5 with a good quality and known to be accurate digital voltmeter.
To prevent self discharge and parasitic battery discharge, you need to keep the converter turned on.
Finally, because it's necessary to run the converter, you need to periodically check and replenish the electrolyte level with distilled water.

This is good info Frank. I know there is a lot of discussion whether to leave the converter on or no. I usually leave mine on and have to top off the water levels on all 5 batteries twice per year. They do not boil much, but some water is required. Other owners say always leave it off and turn on when you get to the boat. Other say if they boil dry then there is something wrong with the charger. others say that even though the charger is "automatic", it will never turn itself down to 0 after full charge, there is always a charging current when turned on.

It is a minor PITA to top them off on my boat. I am surprised that at times I can add almost 1/2 gallon of water across all 5 batteries. I use one of those battery fillers that shut off when the cell is full.

 

[Four Suns]

I'm no expert in battery chargers/converters. I do agree with what Frank C. said though.

However, I will add this. Maybe you have the wrong type of batteries on your boat for the type of boating you do. You can trash a wet cell battery in days if you discharge it often while at anchor or when the charger is off for long periods of time. I put brand new wet cell 8D batteries in my boat one year and the things were toast at the end of the first season because my charger/converter was undersized for my boat so when all the lights on the boat were on and all the new 12v toys at the helm were running with the engine off, the batteries would discharge. Heck.. I just upgraded the light bulbs in the boat from 10 Watt to 20 Watt and the converter couldn't keep up. I ended up putting in AGM batteries instead of wet cell and I think this is my 5th season on them and they still work fine... and I don't have to worry about ever adding water. AGM is less susceptible to battery discharge damage than wet cells are. I also upgraded my converter/charger from a crappy Progressive Dynamics PD2050 (the one Sea Ray put in) to a ProMariner 60A model.

So I would add that you:

1. Need to verify your converter/charger is performing and wired to the batteries properly (sounds like it is but I don't know what the yellow light you mentioned means. Look that up)
2. Make sure your converter/charger is big enough (have you added a bigger stereo and amplifier, brighter light bulbs, 12v PC, etc.??) so you are not draining the batteries even while the converter/charger is running
3. Probably need to switch to AGM batteries and ditch the wet cells.

 

[kaz911]

A three bank charger is for three batteries only! There are no two batteries alike (not even 2 brand new batteries fron the same lot) So with 4 batteries a 4 bank charger is needed.

"A three bank charger is for three batteries only!" I do hope you did not mean that as literal as you wrote it?

As long as batteries are wired CORRECT - you can charge 10 batteries in parallel with one charger. It might just take a lot of time. To limit battery impedance problems and offset slight manufacture differences - you apply PLUS to "First" battery - and MINUS from "Last" Battery - so that you do NOT have one battery having to do all the work. That you can extend up to a heck of a lot of batteries. But you should exchange all batteries in a bank at the same time to minimize impedance problems from uneven wear. And they should be of the same type and manufacture and preferably have close date codes.

I have seen lots of pictures where people have connected batteries "wrong" and it ends up costing them batteries....

 

[chandalen]

There is a reason the chargers say THREE BANK and not THREE BATTERIES.

A bank of batteries by definition is MORE THAN 1 Battery in series or parallel with another. These batteries SHOULD be from the same lot# same modle number etc.
12v batteries will be in parallel, 6v batteries will be in series for 2 and in series AND parallel for even numbers on up. (2 4 6 8 etc).

Parallel is neg to neg and pos to pos. It does not matter which terminal the battery charger is attached to.
Series is neg to pos and pos to neg. It DOES matter where the battery charger is attached. (Neg on one end and pos on the other end)

Series is how most household items are set up for their batteries. A remote doesnt use 2 AA batteries at 1.5v it actually uses a battery BANK of 2 AA 1.5 cells in series to total 3.0v.

Series adds voltage, averages amps
Parallel averages voltage and add amps

A bad battery in SERIES will lower the average voltage, but not much more
A bad battery in PARALLEL will drain the other batteries and will equal themselves out unless a battery isolator is used.

 

[rcon]

There is a reason the chargers say THREE BANK and not THREE BATTERIES.

A bank of batteries by definition is MORE THAN 1 Battery in series or parallel with another. These batteries SHOULD be from the same lot# same modle number etc.
12v batteries will be in parallel, 6v batteries will be in series for 2 and in series AND parallel for even numbers on up. (2 4 6 8 etc).

Parallel is neg to neg and pos to pos. It does not matter which terminal the battery charger is attached to.
Series is neg to pos and pos to neg. It DOES matter where the battery charger is attached. (Neg on one end and pos on the other end)

Series is how most household items are set up for their batteries. A remote doesnt use 2 AA batteries at 1.5v it actually uses a battery BANK of 2 AA 1.5 cells in series to total 3.0v.

Series adds voltage, averages amps
Parallel averages voltage and add amps

A bad battery in SERIES will lower the average voltage, but not much more
A bad battery in PARALLEL will drain the other batteries and will equal themselves out unless a battery isolator is used.

That is an exceedingly useful post. Thank you for so clearly articulating it

I'll go back to following this post with much interest.

 

[kaz911]

There is a reason the chargers say THREE BANK and not THREE BATTERIES.



Parallel is neg to neg and pos to pos. It does not matter which terminal the battery charger is attached to.

sorry but it DOES matter which terminals are connected. You should connect across the BANK and not just to a single battery in the parallel set. If you connect both charger terminals to pos/neg on battery 1 and then parallel to battery two - you will see degrade in performance on battery one over time. Electrons like everything else in nature are lazy - and will try to take the shortest path possible. (very simplified explanation). Shortest path is therefore always the through the first battery.

 

[aquadancer]

My last boat was a 1998 370DA with the same charger and battery set-up. This charger is designed to float down to 13.5v for maintenance chare and I always had it on when leaving my boat for the week. In my experience this charger is adequate for stock boat and normal use, if you added stuff that increased your 12v load beyond your charger capacity, then you clearly need to ungrade your charger... more powerful audio amp, stronger cabin lights, an additional fridge would be likely culprits. Turn on all your typical 12v accessories and test the draw, if you're drawing over 20 amps then you should upgrade your charger.

While it is possible that the charge failed and is not dropping to float charge voltage, this is also fairly easy to diagnose by measuring output voltage on the charger during each stage.

One question that Connie did not answer is whether they properly maintain the batteries. When I had flooded wet cell baterries on my boats, they needed topping off at least once a month during the summer season in order to keep the plates covered. It was a major PITA since batteries on the 370DA are under cockpit overhand and very hard to reach. This was the primary reason why I switched to AGMs. Genny battery does not go through as many charge/discharge cycles which is why it doesn't cook off.

BTW, my Odyssey Marine AGM batteries are now on their 5th season and I don't even disconnect them for winter storage.