The Official 450 Express Bridge Owners Club

[Forrestkk]

Disconnect the prop shaft coupling from the trans and see if it spins easier. If so, you have an alignment issue. If it does not, it is most likely the cutless bearing, next would be a bent shaft.

That was my next step before hauling. If it does spin easier, I feel like I can adjust with the vibe absorbers to get the alignment.

With that said, I read this post on small engine vee drives and it concerned me about alignment from the cutlass to the log. http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?385426-V-Drive-Engine-Alignment-Tips

Thoughts?

 

[Shoyrtt]

That was my next step before hauling. If it does spin easier, I feel like I can adjust with the vibe absorbers to get the alignment.

With that said, I read this post on small engine vee drives and it concerned me about alignment from the cutlass to the log. http://www.marineengine.com/boat-forum/showthread.php?385426-V-Drive-Engine-Alignment-Tips

Thoughts?

Let us know what you find out. My slip neighbor has a 2008, 46' Meridian Sedan Bridge and had driveline alignment issues which also caused all kinds problems including his dripless to fail. He was leaving on a trip and noticed a sudden vibration. He went into the engine room and saw the water coming in and headed straight for the haul out dock. He was out of action for nearly a month. Hopefully you can figure your problem out without any down time.

 

[Forrestkk]

Let us know what you find out. My slip neighbor has a 2008, 46' Meridian Sedan Bridge and had driveline alignment issues which also caused all kinds problems including his dripless to fail. He was leaving on a trip and noticed a sudden vibration. He went into the engine room and saw the water coming in and headed straight for the haul out dock. He was out of action for nearly a month. Hopefully you can figure your problem out without any down time.

Will certainly keep you all updated.

After much research and speaking with PYI, they manufacture an over-bored carbon seal for our boats. Unfortunately, after talking the boat yard into giving me the PNs for what they installed on my boat under the previous owner they do not have the extension indicating the over-bored carbon seal. Lesson learned, make sure you, or your boat yard, talk to PYI about your application, don't just order by shaft and log size.

Going to unbolt the shafts tonight and see if they spin more easily. Have been searching around for someone who will do shaft alignment. Found one, and trying to get a second quote.

Knowing the shaft seals are wrong, I think a haul-out is inevitable at this point. Going to play with the seals a bit more and see if getting the bellows to proper compression gets me a few more days on the water as I wait for a spot in the yard.

 

[Forrestkk]

Will certainly keep you all updated.

After much research and speaking with PYI, they manufacture an over-bored carbon seal for our boats. Unfortunately, after talking the boat yard into giving me the PNs for what they installed on my boat under the previous owner they do not have the extension indicating the over-bored carbon seal. Lesson learned, make sure you, or your boat yard, talk to PYI about your application, don't just order by shaft and log size.

Going to unbolt the shafts tonight and see if they spin more easily. Have been searching around for someone who will do shaft alignment. Found one, and trying to get a second quote.

Knowing the shaft seals are wrong, I think a haul-out is inevitable at this point. Going to play with the seals a bit more and see if getting the bellows to proper compression gets me a few more days on the water as I wait for a spot in the yard.

Well, I had my 14 year old run the belt tension jack down to the yacht club and had some flat pieces welded on by the dock master ($30, same day fabrication!!). I broke the original rounded pieces last week and only got about 1/2" of compression on the bellows. It is pretty clear in the image where I got the seal compressed to last week, and then with the modified tool I got the full 1". Started raining so I had to quit (the radar arch drips right into the ER when its raining...had my 9 year old close me in so I could finish the port). Will repeat the process on the starboard tomorrow evening.

With as much pressure as I had to exert on that little jack, I will probably stayed tied up and at least spin the shafts at idle before going out and puttering around.

Still haven't had a chance to loose the shafts from the transmissions to see if there is an alignment issue. I can report that the PSS carbon is definitely not centered, much more play pushing up, but not a lot of time to really time to explore that as water is pouring the whole time.

 

[Shoyrtt]

Kevin started this thread over in the "General Maintenance/Repair" section of CSR about what seems to be a common issue with our 450 EBs, the droopy shelves in the master state room. My boat suffers from this malady that I haven't had the time to get around to fixing quite yet. I stopped the leaking pothole windows, but the sag is still there. I'm going to link that thread to our general 450 EB conversation to see if others have tackled the fix and have any suggestions on the process.
99 450 EB drooping Master shelves and mirrors:
http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/99-450-eb-drooping-master-shelves-and-mirriors.105401/

And here is a picture I took on the first day I saw our boat in person in early July, 2020. The saggy shelf is hidden behind the pillows.

 

[Forrestkk]

Well, I had my 14 year old run the belt tension jack down to the yacht club and had some flat pieces welded on by the dock master ($30, same day fabrication!!). I broke the original rounded pieces last week and only got about 1/2" of compression on the bellows. It is pretty clear in the image where I got the seal compressed to last week, and then with the modified tool I got the full 1". Started raining so I had to quit (the radar arch drips right into the ER when its raining...had my 9 year old close me in so I could finish the port). Will repeat the process on the starboard tomorrow evening.

With as much pressure as I had to exert on that little jack, I will probably stayed tied up and at least spin the shafts at idle before going out and puttering around.

Still haven't had a chance to loose the shafts from the transmissions to see if there is an alignment issue. I can report that the PSS carbon is definitely not centered, much more play pushing up, but not a lot of time to really time to explore that as water is pouring the whole time.

View attachment 109954

View attachment 109955

View attachment 109956

So, spent an hour on the phone with Miles at PYI. Sent him pics of my newly compressed seals. Over compressed, but says sometimes the bellows get a "memory" and nuetral is not really neutral. His big question was, "How much shaft tube is in the bellows?" I laughed and told him, "Do you know how thick your bellows are, I mean I'm glad, but you can't feel anything inside of them!!!" Miles told me there was no real chance of catastrophic failure with a over compressed bellows, but it might drip. I laughed again and told him, "Well, it is spraying right now!"

So, dock spins, circle the bayou and get a date at yard and see if can use the boat until the haul as Miles confirmed wrong seals, again...ughh.

If any of you change seals the right PN is 02-200-312US. The "US" is the important part that my seller's yard left off.

I did use salt off in the ER this evening to reign in corrosion, and will again tomorrow as the seals have been vaporizing salt water for a bit and I am noticing increased corrosion. Expect to be chasing some electrical issues after a complete wash down of the ER.

Images Starboard and Port respectively.

 

[Forrestkk]

So, spent an hour on the phone with Miles at PYI. Sent him pics of my newly compressed seals. Over compressed, but says sometimes the bellows get a "memory" and nuetral is not really neutral. His big question was, "How much shaft tube is in the bellows?" I laughed and told him, "Do you know how thick your bellows are, I mean I'm glad, but you can't feel anything inside of them!!!" Miles told me there was no real chance of catastrophic failure with a over compressed bellows, but it might drip. I laughed again and told him, "Well, it is spraying right now!"

So, dock spins, circle the bayou and get a date at yard and see if can use the boat until the haul as Miles confirmed wrong seals, again...ughh.

If any of you change seals the right PN is 02-200-312US. The "US" is the important part that my seller's yard left off.

I did use salt off in the ER this evening to reign in corrosion, and will again tomorrow as the seals have been vaporizing salt water for a bit and I am noticing increased corrosion. Expect to be chasing some electrical issues after a complete wash down of the ER.

Images Starboard and Port respectively.

View attachment 110026

View attachment 110027

Well, I am cautiously optimistic. 3.5 hours on the mains today and no shaft seal leaks from my over compressed seals. Here is hoping they can keep me going for a bit.

My autopilot is another story, but will post that in the electronics section.

 

[Shoyrtt]

I received the Clean Way Fuel Fill from Amazon this past week. I thought I should share what I received and some pictures of the product (you know I like pictures ). I ordered the fuel fill and the optional baffle caps. Here is the contents of the box.

I will say, the packaging was very nice. Not pictured were the two cloth bags the kit also came with. It was also pleasing to read a set of directions that were clearly and concisely written along with diagrams of all of the steps to set it up.
The first step was to install the appropriate sized seal for the fuel filler on the boat. The seals are all threaded but you also add a light coating of the Permatex sealant.

Next choose either the larger seal for a diesel fuel nozzle or smaller for gasoline. Again this is Permatexed.

Here it is ready to fuel

It also comes with a piece of Velcro for mounting. The Clean Way with the caps fits perfectly in the starboard side storage compartment of the cockpit.

I haven't used it yet, but it appears to be a quality product. I have had the same issue fueling my ski boat forever. I might just end up buying a second one for the old Ebbtide.

 

[Shoyrtt]

The main purpose for my email was to get the gelcoat information for my boat. According to Sea Ray based on my 1999 HIN it is Artic White WG-MP-1949PN.
I believe that Spectrum is the main source for gelcoat so I gave them a call with the number from Sea Ray. The lady there told me the code I gave them was for a 2000-2008 boat. She also advised me to purchase through IBoats.Com.
So here is my question, it looks like there are two options. I can buy the gelcoat that Spectrum recommends at this link: https://www.iboats.com/shop/spectru...lor-boat-gel-coat-patch-paste-repair-kit.html
Or the product that Sea Ray suggests that is correct at this link: https://www.iboats.com/shop/spectru...lor-boat-gel-coat-patch-paste-repair-kit.html
Anyone out there have any help with this one?

I know, I'm replying to myself, but I thought I would update the group on my gelcoat issue. I ended up buying both of the Artic White patch kits from Spectrum through Iboats. The "1994 to 2003" kit suggested by Sea Ray ended up being the match. No pictures of my patch work yet as I need do a little more sanding and then a good buff and polish before it is presentable. Here is the link again to the kit:https://www.iboats.com/shop/spectru...lor-boat-gel-coat-patch-paste-repair-kit.html

 

[Forrestkk]

I know, I'm replying to myself, but I thought I would update the group on my gelcoat issue. I ended up buying both of the Artic White patch kits from Spectrum through Iboats. The "1994 to 2003" kit suggested by Sea Ray ended up being the match. No pictures of my patch work yet as I need do a little more sanding and then a good buff and polish before it is presentable. Here is the link again to the kit:https://www.iboats.com/shop/spectru...lor-boat-gel-coat-patch-paste-repair-kit.html

Can't wait to see your work! I want to try my hand at a few gel coat repairs.

 

[Forrestkk]

Not being an alarmist at all. Agree the side mount for that condensate sump is poor engineering. Even worse, the raw water drain, as you mentioned, is almost directly above on mine giving no chance for the water level to go down. In the 30 secs I had the hose off with the midship AC running 2.5 gallons (hand pumped it out into a 5 gallon bucket that filled half way) went into the boat. If left unattended it would be game over unless the fresh water tank bilge pump could keep up. Assume thats where it would spill over to before getting into the salon.

Check valve on order and will do the main drain flush, maybe today.

Check valve, putting this up near the main drain connection

View attachment 108851


Condensate drain connection behind entertainment/electrical cabinet
View attachment 108848

Raw water drain in same location as above
View attachment 108847

Hi All,

Started the "main drain" cleaning project this evening and have a few pics and questions before moving on. I was surprised to see the whole drain sagging towards the bow. This image is from the sink drain looking aft. I can't imagine the engineers not building this with a constant downward slope? Thoughts?

@LMBoat gave me some great advice to clean the whole length starting by pulling the cap to remove sand and buildup. Curious if you meant the PVC cap, or did you just work it through the sink drain. My end cap looks glued and I don't want to tear up the whole system.

I have my check valve, but got lazy and put it down by the condensate sump. Bad idea! with the main drain dumping water into that line there was enough pressure on the check valve that the condensate pump couldn't open the check valve and send the water overboard. Will be having to install that up right by the main drain to make it work (I hope). At least the autoparts store had a 3/4" double barb so I could splice my hose...smh.

 

[LMBoat]

I meant just through the sink drain hose barb. My endcap is glued as well and I came to the same conclusion as you. Sorry for not being clear.

FYI, my drain does slope aft. i wonder if the sagging drain allows it to hold more water and hence overflow into your sump box?

 

[Forrestkk]

I meant just through the sink drain hose barb. My endcap is glued as well and I came to the same conclusion as you. Sorry for not being clear.

FYI, my drain does slope aft. i wonder if the sagging drain allows it to hold more water and hence overflow into your sump box?

No worries, and thanks for the clarification.

I was a bit unclear on the "whole drain" sloping down...really, the slope downwards toward the bow is just the portion where the three T fittings are connecting to the longer PVC pipe. You can see it go up, and then back down toward the stern in the image just after the connection. I don't think that specific slope issue is causing my A/C sump to fill as the slope is correct there, but I do know my sink drains like garbage and worse there are three 3/4" drains attached on the wrong side of the slope.

Poured some beers in there one evening and didn't run water after...boy, did my boat smell like stale beer the next day.

 

[Forrestkk]

No worries, and thanks for the clarification.

I was a bit unclear on the "whole drain" sloping down...really, the slope downwards toward the bow is just the portion where the three T fittings are connecting to the longer PVC pipe. You can see it go up, and then back down toward the stern in the image just after the connection. I don't think that specific slope issue is causing my A/C sump to fill as the slope is correct there, but I do know my sink drains like garbage and worse there are three 3/4" drains attached on the wrong side of the slope.

Poured some beers in there one evening and didn't run water after...boy, did my boat smell like stale beer the next day.

Main drain enima complete...what a mess. There must have been 20 pounds of sand!

 

[LMBoat]

Great!! That should help the situation.

 

[Kenblacks]

hey guys new to the sea ray 450 EB world . I am really close to buying a 2001 450 EB, Cummins mtrs 3 stateroom model. I have had big boats for 20+ years but only gas units. this is a fresh water boat since new, 700+ hours on mtrs and similar hours in genset. boat is in pretty good condition from what I can see. It has sea deck & led lighting installed as well.
my questions are on these engines, should I prepare for a lot of maint costs on these mtrs. ?
the ac's need work & the main salon unit does not blow much air / volume is really low . I only found 2 small ac vents up high by the tv. I have yet to find and 2nd or 3rd vent for the salon. this is a pretty big room for only those 2 small vents. what am I missing here?
I have been reading all your comments & can see that guys really know these EB boats & love them. thanks in advance Ken in Dallas

 

[Forrestkk]

hey guys new to the sea ray 450 EB world . I am really close to buying a 2001 450 EB, Cummins mtrs 3 stateroom model. I have had big boats for 20+ years but only gas units. this is a fresh water boat since new, 700+ hours on mtrs and similar hours in genset. boat is in pretty good condition from what I can see. It has sea deck & led lighting installed as well.
my questions are on these engines, should I prepare for a lot of maint costs on these mtrs. ?
the ac's need work & the main salon unit does not blow much air / volume is really low . I only found 2 small ac vents up high by the tv. I have yet to find and 2nd or 3rd vent for the salon. this is a pretty big room for only those 2 small vents. what am I missing here?
I have been reading all your comments & can see that guys really know these EB boats & love them. thanks in advance Ken in Dallas

Hi Ken,

I am pretty new to this boat too, with that being said this is a great little community.

700 hours is low on these engines for that age. When I was going through the purchase process, everyone asked me about how much my engines had been used recently as a big indicator of what I might be stepping into. If the boat has been sitting unused for along while there may be issues, but probably nothing that can't be overcome. I love my Cummins 6CTAs...highly recommend you also check out SBMAR.com, here the link to the 6CTA story - https://www.sbmar.com/articles/the-cummins-6cta-8-3-marine-engine-story/. TONS of info there on these engines on that site, but the short answer is there are very few complaints on these engines. Cooler maintenance seems to be the key to keep them in good shape, but you have a fresh water boat so you may be clear. @LMBoat has had the setup for years and loves them. You will find on SBMAR that there are some possible issues with the exhaust elbows as they could allow raw water to leak a back on to the turbo impeller.

All of A/Cs are easy to replace, there is a third vent for the Salon A/C over the fridge. With a properly operating A/C the salon stays cold. I am down to the two small A/Cs (8000 BTUs) as the salon A/C (16,000 BTUs) was ID'd on the inspection as about to fail, which it promptly did when we went to pick-up the boat. Even with just the two small A/Cs going the salon stays semi-comfortable with the staterooms/heads being cold, and that is down here in Florida.

Things I wish I would have known on my inspection that kind of bit me were:
1. Props shaft alignment and shaft seal PNs (if they have been replaced, make sure the right ones got put on)...see this post http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php...ridge-owners-club.102401/page-14#post-1246305
2. I would have asked that the engine sync was fixed as that was no fun on a 30-hour trip home
3. Make sure if you have fishing pole holders they are plumbed correctly with drains to the bilge.
4. Make sure the A/C condensate sump for the Salon A/C isn't filling while the other A/Cs are running.
5. Make sure the starboard engine has the dipstick mounted inboard
6. I would download the manual for your autopilot and have your inspector check that is adjusted properly. Mine turned the boat and held a course which is all the inspector checked. On the trip home, it hunted the whole time to stay on course line. If properly adjusted it shouldn't do that. Make sure you set the autopilot that is following a course line with a crosswind and then look behind you to make sure the boat isn't making "s" turns.

Good luck with the purchase and happy to answer any questions you might have as I just went through this process.

 

[Kenblacks]

thanks for the fast response
the man who owned it just passed away, I believe the marina drove it over to it's new location in the last couple of weeks for it to be sold. I dont expect it has sat longer than 6 -12 months prior to that .
our large inland freshwater lake would not need autopilot.

I have not started it but genset turned over easily w/ full battery power. in my past experience most boats that have sat unused the genset battery is dead. I am waiting for the boats service records from the old marina to be sent to me. that should shed a lot of light on this boat for me.

should the heat exchangers be tested with it only having 700 hours?
my Cummins in my 3/4 tone dodge truck is bullet proof hoping for similar on this boat.
I had (i believe) almost this same 8.3 mtr in of all things a 44ft 2008 ford f750 4 door crew cab toyhauler mtr home a couple of years ago. carefree for a few years

are these bad about bottom blisters? my older sea ray 1981 31ft vanguard was plagued with blisters.

do you have good airflow on those 2 vents above the tv?

I will look at the one above the fridge for the 3rd one.
this boat has cherry wood cabinet doors that close off the fridge compartment completely.

thanks gain

 

[Forrestkk]

thanks for the fast response
the man who owned it just passed away, I believe the marina drove it over to it's new location in the last couple of weeks for it to be sold. I dont expect it has sat longer than 6 -12 months prior to that .
our large inland freshwater lake would not need autopilot.

I have not started it but genset turned over easily w/ full battery power. in my past experience most boats that have sat unused the genset battery is dead. I am waiting for the boats service records from the old marina to be sent to me. that should shed a lot of light on this boat for me.

should the heat exchangers be tested with it only having 700 hours?
my Cummins in my 3/4 tone dodge truck is bullet proof hoping for similar on this boat.
I had (i believe) almost this same 8.3 mtr in of all things a 44ft 2008 ford f750 4 door crew cab toyhauler mtr home a couple of years ago. carefree for a few years

are these bad about bottom blisters? my older sea ray 1981 31ft vanguard was plagued with blisters.

do you have good airflow on those 2 vents above the tv?

I will look at the one above the fridge for the 3rd one.
this boat has cherry wood cabinet doors that close off the fridge compartment completely.

thanks gain

YW!

The boat likely has a battery charger that keeps all the batteries charged, unless it isn't plugged in. I can't imagine it wasn't plugged in to dock power. I had a battery that needed water and it looked fine until I took off the terminals to clean it and then it dropped to 10.5 VDC in about 5 mins, luckily, the plates were still covered and about a gallon for distilled water later and it is working good again, but hard to tell battery condition without unplugging the boat and then letting something run, like the fridge, for a bit and see what happens. Obviously, the gen batter is separate, but on mine it is also hooked up to the charger so it is always top charged to at least 13.6 VDC. Food for thought on that as a litmus test, I brought a specific gravity checker on my survey just to be sure. If the main 8Ds are bad, those suckers are heavy and will need some sort of lift to replace, or you could go lithium like a couple of the other guys on here.

According to the guys on SBMAR, you can look into the coolers using a bore scope cam through the ones that have zinc ports and see how it all looks. I can't imagine a freshwater boat would be that bad????? There are A LOT of coolers; charge air, sweetwater, engine oil, gearbox oil, and a fuel cooler (not sure if I missed any). You can bring an IR temp gun on the inspection and use it to check almost all of those inlets/outlets and SBMAR has a little diagram to check. Also, you can look at the raw water hoses and see if they are bulging. Bulging raw water hoses could mean a restricted cooler, or hoses at the end of service life. I can't recommend on testing the coolers or not, but they would have to be removed from the engine and pressure checked, so not likely part of a typical inspection. My starboard engine had been replaced and the port had all the coolers serviced recently so it wasn't a huge concern in my case. I haven't heard anything but good things with the 8.3s, except the valve dropping issue on the 480CE. Dig into that SBMAR site and most of your concerns are addressed.

My inspector didn't notice anything out of the ordinary on blisters, and I haven't heard anyone complain about them in all of my research.

The airflow coming from my vents by the TV was good prior to the A/C dying, as well as the flow coming out of the vent over the fridge (I have the same cabinets enclosing my fridge). You might want to check under the steps coming in from the cockpit into the salon. They lift up and that is where the return air for the salon A/C is, mine was pretty dirty and someone could have dropped a plastic bag in there or something. Also, there is a screen on the fan inlet to that A/C which if you haven't already done so, can be accessed easily by pulling up the access panel just forward of those steps. May just need that to be cleaned.

 

[Shoyrtt]

thanks for the fast response
the man who owned it just passed away, I believe the marina drove it over to it's new location in the last couple of weeks for it to be sold. I dont expect it has sat longer than 6 -12 months prior to that .
our large inland freshwater lake would not need autopilot.

I have not started it but genset turned over easily w/ full battery power. in my past experience most boats that have sat unused the genset battery is dead. I am waiting for the boats service records from the old marina to be sent to me. that should shed a lot of light on this boat for me.

should the heat exchangers be tested with it only having 700 hours?
my Cummins in my 3/4 tone dodge truck is bullet proof hoping for similar on this boat.
I had (i believe) almost this same 8.3 mtr in of all things a 44ft 2008 ford f750 4 door crew cab toyhauler mtr home a couple of years ago. carefree for a few years

are these bad about bottom blisters? my older sea ray 1981 31ft vanguard was plagued with blisters.

do you have good airflow on those 2 vents above the tv?

I will look at the one above the fridge for the 3rd one.
this boat has cherry wood cabinet doors that close off the fridge compartment completely.

thanks gain

Hello Ken, welcome to the group. Hopefully we can help you decide to pull the trigger or not on this 450EB.

My boat has Cats so I'll leave it to Kevin and Larry to pass on their sound advice. As far as bottom blisters, I don't think the 450EB is known to have a problem with them. Usually from what I was told, a blister is usually caused by either poor maintenance or poor application of your hull paint. When we had our boat hauled out for the survey, there were a couple of small blisters, but the surveyor did not call them out as needing repair. His advice to me was to monitor them closely and wait on having the hull repainted seeing that I was moving the boat from fresh water to the salt. He recommended to keep it in the salt for at least six months to let the hull "cure" before repainting. My underwater/scuba cleaner that services the boat monthly, has monitored the blisters that he says are now gone and replaces the zincs and anodes as needed. She has now been in the salt for a year and I plan on having her hauled out this winter for hull paint, just in case. Here is a picture with my son for the survey haul out:

My main salon AC works fantastic. I have great airflow out of the two vents to the sides of the salon tv cabinet. As Kevin suggested, check the return under the steps down from the slider in the 3 stateroom model. Make sure that you have your surveyor check the whole system carefully. This is one area that I wish I would have spent more time on when I was going through the buying process. Make sure you select a good surveyor. I know my surveyor missed two leaks in my water system (faulty pex fittings) that should have been called out. I went with a local guy who was less money than some of the other options and I know he wasn't thorough enough to properly do the job. One final note, make sure whomever you choose as a surveyor checks with a meter for moisture inside the engine room below the vents on the port and starboard sides and also checks for moisture under the two windows for the master stateroom. Both locations are known to have issues due to faulty caulking.
Other than that, let us know if you have any other questions. If you buy the boat, it would be great to get some pictures from you to see another one of the 240 or so 450EBs that were produced in the five year run. Here is my 99 along side an 03 last summer in Avalon.
Jim