Thoughts on Vesper Cortex

[bajturner]

I've been pondering the Vesper Cortex VHF/AIS since my old Northstar needs to replaced (too bad, works well but the handset cable is shot), and I also want to add AIS capability. I have some thoughts and questions about this unit.

I am not sure if I like that the only way the VHF handsets connect and communicate with the base station is over WiFi. Even the "wired" handset communicates over WiFi from what I can gather. The wire is just for power.

The other thing I am trying to sort out is the WiFi functionality / topology. It seems like the only way to connect WiFi devices (like an iPad running Navionics) is for Cortex to be operating as a WiFi router / AP. As such, this means the Cortex base unit can't connect to an existing Ethernet/WiFi network that has Internet connectivity, since it wants to operate as an AP/router itself. It also means a device like an iPad can't simultaneously have Internet connectivity and receive data from the Cortex base station.

Now, if there is a way to connect the Cortex base station as a WiFi client instead of being a router, that means all VHF handsets would have to connect to the base station via the WiFi network...again, doesn't seem ideal.

Anyone have any experience with this solution or have researched it more than I have?

 

[Skybolt]

I don't have the Cortex, but I do have the XB 8000. Like most WiFi devices these days it can be a host or a client. I am guessing the Cortex is the same. Like you I didn't like the handset aspect of the cortex and went with the 8000 instead. I have the Garmin VHF 210 with remote hand set and love it.

 

[bajturner]

I don't have the Cortex, but I do have the XB 8000. Like most WiFi devices these days it can be a host or a client. I am guessing the Cortex is the same. Like you I didn't like the handset aspect of the cortex and went with the 8000 instead. I have the Garmin VHF 210 with remote hand set and love it.

Ah, ok, thanks!

So when connected as a client, I assume other clients can receive AIS and other data from the XB through the router?

Is there any AIS/DSC interworking between the XB and the 210 via NMEA?

 

[b_arrington]

Ah, ok, thanks!

So when connected as a client, I assume other clients can receive AIS and other data from the XB through the router?

Is there any AIS/DSC interworking between the XB and the 210 via NMEA?

Usually the hard wired marine devices (MFD, VHF) would get the AIS data via a NMEA connection, either N2k or N0183. WiFi would be used to get the data to other devices like a phone, tablet, or laptop.

 

[bajturner]

Usually the hard wired marine devices (MFD, VHF) would get the AIS data via a NMEA connection, either N2k or N0183. WiFi would be used to get the data to other devices like a phone, tablet, or laptop.

Yes, this is what I would expect. Two things that are unclear to me are:
- If an MFD, VHF radio, and the XB8000 are all connected via NMEA, are any interoperability features supported, such as tap an AIS target on your MFD to establish a DSC VHF call with that vessel?
-- Similarly, is this interopabily extended to devices that are connected to the same network over WiFi, including the the XB8000 in client mode? For example, if you have a tablet running navigation SW that is connected to the same WiFi router as the XB8000 is (rather than directly to the XB8000 running as an AP /:host), would it receive AIS target data over the network, and could you tap that AIS target on the tablet to establish a DSC call (WiFi over network to XB to VHF over NMEA)?

Obviously whatever is running on the tablet would need to support it, but it's not clear if the network functionality would do it if configured this way.

It would be cool integration of mobile devices that could have applications beyond just AIS and VHF calls.

 

[Skybolt]

Yes, this is what I would expect. Two things that are unclear to me are:
- If an MFD, VHF radio, and the XB8000 are all connected via NMEA, are any interoperability features supported, such as tap an AIS target on your MFD to establish a DSC VHF call with that vessel?
-- Similarly, is this interopabily extended to devices that are connected to the same network over WiFi, including the the XB8000 in client mode? For example, if you have a tablet running navigation SW that is connected to the same WiFi router as the XB8000 is (rather than directly to the XB8000 running as an AP /:host), would it receive AIS target data over the network, and could you tap that AIS target on the tablet to establish a DSC call (WiFi over network to XB to VHF over NMEA)?

Obviously whatever is running on the tablet would need to support it, but it's not clear if the network functionality would do it if configured this way.

It would be cool integration of mobile devices that could have applications beyond just AIS and VHF calls.

So lets not confuse the issue here, AIS, DSC calling and the standard interactions are all done via N2K as @b_arrington has indicated. The wifi connectivity to the Vesper products is to support apps on cell phone and tablets, like their Anchor Watch app, WatchMate. Other apps like iNax and Navionics are also supported to the extent of what their software supports.

The Cortex VHF runs a version of their WatchMate as the interface on the radio. I am not sure I want that complexity on my VHF handset. I just want to make and receive hails and be done. The simpler that can be done the better, IMO. That said the Cortex is impressive and has a certain level of wow factor, tough decision if your a techie.

 

[bajturner]

So lets not confuse the issue here, AIS, DSC calling and the standard interactions are all done via N2K as @b_arrington has indicated. The wifi connectivity to the Vesper products is to support apps on cell phone and tablets, like their Anchor Watch app, WatchMate. Other apps like iNax and Navionics are also supported to the extent of what their software supports.

For sure...understood. I am curious how much of the N2K functionality is extended over the WiFi network. Not a critical feature enabler, but the techie in me wants to know!

I guess the question is really with respect to what data will be passed back and forth through the gateway:

XB-8000 Class B AIS Transponder with WiFi | Vesper Marine

Maybe there is a table that shows which PGNs are supported for send and/or receive over the various gateway interfaces, including WiFi.

I am mostly thinking about upgrade path of my current system that includes the E-Series Classic chartplotters. I assume AIS data from a Vesper device will get communicated to the E-Series over N2K/ SeaTalk (using cable adapters) and will show-up. Maybe DSC calling will even work. If not, I am wondering if some or all of this functionality would extend to a tablet via WiFi and the gateway. This would be an interesting migration path. I don't really need to forklift all the nav hardware for the type of boating I do now, but I plan to within the next 4-5 years.

Here is a blog post that talks about AIS on the Navionics Boating app (even using Vesper!): AIS in the Boating app (navionics.com). I believe this example is the tablet connected directly to the Vesper AP, however.

Pretty much thinking out loud and exploring using this stuff...

 

[Skybolt]

The link I provided in the other post for WatchMate should answer some of your questions. But understand AIS has it's own spec and while the WatchMate app does show other N2K type data in the app. that is through WiFi only. What an AIS transponder can actually output on the N2K bus is regulated and is in the AIS specification. What a VHF radio can do is regulated by the FCC as to what frequencies and power levels it has. Past that Vesper has taken liberties on it's designs and made a VHF radio (Cortex) provide some really cool safety features in a very usable way that makes sense. The XB-8000 has the same features (Barring the radio) with the AIS alarm and supported WatchMate app. that makes it as cool as the Cortex for the most part. I have the alarm out of the 8000 tied into my system monitor (Maretron setup) and now alarms through out the boat for the anchor watch.

With regard to the Raymarine E-series AIS support. I can not speak to that as I am all Garmin, but I know it does support it. Not sure if it was a typo or not "N2K/ SeaTalk (using cable adapters) and will show-up" But don't confuse Seatalk and SeatalkNG they are 0183 and N2K respectively. Hope that helps.

 

[bajturner]

Thank you...great info.

Not sure if it was a typo or not "N2K/ SeaTalk (using cable adapters) and will show-up" But don't confuse Seatalk and SeatalkNG they are 0183 and N2K respectively. Hope that helps.

Not a typo, an oversight / lack of E120 SeaTalk/NMEA capability knowledge! I am wading into this now. Looks like there may be some NMEA 0183 muxes aimed at AIS communications that could be used. Need to do some reading and planning.

Knowing how everything on the boat is currently networked would be very useful also, but I don't see any diagrams in the manuals. I see references to NMEA and SeaTalk junction boxes in the 2007 User Manual, but that's about it. Will have to map it all out. Maybe someone on the 420/44B thread has...

 

[bobeast]

After a recent software update, you can setup the Cortex to join your existing WiFi router. You can set the handsets to reach the unit via either the built-in Wifi or your joined router. The vesper will then output the NMEA data (as NMEA 0183 sentences), over TCP (port # 39150). So software running on an iPad / iPhone can be setup to consume that data just like the XP 8000.

Effectively, Any supported NMEA 2000 sentence on your bus that has an 0183 counterpart will be broadcast. That said, I've seen a number of sentences that do not appear to be supported. I can see wind data from my wind sensor, depth and water temp from my MFD, and of course AIS and navigation data from the Vesper unit itself.

I'm not seeing sentences for Air Temp, humidity, fuel tank levels, etc., but I'm continuing to look into it.

 

[Skybolt]

... Not a typo, an oversight / lack of E120 SeaTalk/NMEA capability knowledge! ...

Yeah, lot's of reading. But one thing to keep in mind is Raymarine is not connector compatible to NMEA 2000 or NMEA 0183 for that matter and need converter connectors to bridge into the rest of the world. Seatalk, NMEA 0183 signal has a semi flat 3 pin connector where as the rest of the 0183 world is just wires with no special connectors. SeatalkNG signal is compatible with NMEA 2000 but with proprietary connectors not compatible with N2K. Adapter cables and connectors can be had for converting the SeatalkNG to NMEA 2000, but the Seatalk (0183) connector is usually just cut off and plain wires are used with some sort of terminal bock, user supplied.

Another thing to understand is NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 are not directly compatible with out converters, but don't think I'll just get a converter and everything will be awesome. NMEA 2000 is vastly more expandable and supports many more devices then 0183. So only the basics convert for the most part as compared to what N2K supports.

Take all of this as high level information as there are exceptions and tricks to get around most issues. But those are the basics for cabling.



https://www.raymarine.com/view/index-id=400.html

https://www.raymarine.com/view/index-id=5535.html

http://boatprojects.blogspot.com/2012/12/beginners-guide-to-raymarines-seatalk.html

https://panbo.com/finally-raymarine-seatalk-ng-to-nmea-2000-backbone-adapters/

 

[alnav]

Thank you...great info.



Not a typo, an oversight / lack of E120 SeaTalk/NMEA capability knowledge! I am wading into this now. Looks like there may be some NMEA 0183 muxes aimed at AIS communications that could be used. Need to do some reading and planning.

Knowing how everything on the boat is currently networked would be very useful also, but I don't see any diagrams in the manuals. I see references to NMEA and SeaTalk junction boxes in the 2007 User Manual, but that's about it. Will have to map it all out. Maybe someone on the 420/44B thread has...


View attachment 101712

Baj, I've attached the factory drawing for Dual E120 installs circa 2008. I got this from Sea Ray several years ago. Since our boats are of the same vintage, it may apply to your install as well if it came equipped from the builder. Hope it's helpful.

 

[bajturner]

Thank you everyone...great info!