VSC ? Not a detterent for a CG boarding !!

[The Bill Collector]

Can you help a kiwi out...whats a LEO...?

Law Enforcement Officer....

 

[Ike]

As a retired Coast Guard Officer, I always find it good to hear what people have to say. It is especially gratifying to hear good comments like these. The Hamilton Letter was drilled into us from day one. I heard it in boot camp, in Officer Candidate School, and many other times in between. I is a fundamental tenet of the Coast Guard.

As for boarding authority; without getting into a long lecture about US code and Code of Federal regulations, the basic law is, Coast Guard personnel are empowered to enforce all Federal Laws on the water (where there is Federal jurisdiction, which is not every body of water) and are also custom officers. There are given the authority to board and search without a warrant and without probable cause, to inspect papers, cargos, safety equipment and so on. Yes, it may seem that your right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure is being violated, but if you examine the reasoning behind it and the history of it you will realize the necessity. The Courts for over 200 years have upheld the authority. But one thing that is constantly drilled in to all Coast Guard personnel, you abuse it, you lose it!. If it happens to you that you are treated badly, there is a process to handle complaints. A letter or phone call to the local Group (or Sector depending on where you are) Commander, or to the District (larger area) Commander will get a response and an investigation. I have known people who lost their boarding certification because they were just plain abusive. Not every Coastie is a boarding Officer, they have to be trained and certified, and demonstrate proficiency. And if they screw up, the Chief back at their station will have their a..... for lunch!

Yes they ask about weapons, what LEO wants surprises like that!

By the way, not carrying ID is a very bad idea. Suppose you are in an accident and unconcious or worse? How are they going to identify you. Especially if you have a medical condition. You should have something that tells the first responder who you are and what medical conditions you might have. It has nothing to do with personal freedom, it's a matter of your own well being and safety. If you worry about losing your wallet or ID on the water, make copies and keep them in a water proof case that floats.

For those who want to know more, I have a downloadable pdf on my website http://newboatbuilders.com/docs/boardings.pdf

 

[ttmott]

Here it is: https://www.uscg.mil/history/faqs/hamiltonletter.pdf

In terms of paperwork on a USCG documented boat they want to see:
Original Documentation Certificate (not a copy)
Proof of safety course or captain's license (I carry mine in my wallet)
State/Local registration (if required)

If documented, I've had them check to ensure the hailing port and name on the transom match the documentation. Once I've been asked to see my documentation plate, which is in my engine compartment.

They have never entered the cabin on my boat, they always remain in the cockpit.

I'm actually happy to see them on patrol. We have so many idiots who have no idea what they're doing it's good to have them out there.

Proof of Safety Course or Captain's License?? A Safety Course is state by state and not a tenant of the USCG. The only requirement to yield proof of a Captain's License is if one is executing duties as a Captain like paying passengers or commercial work for hire and the USCG is inspecting when this is in process. Now presenting your six-pack as identification during the inspection is not a bad thing especially if your boat is up to spec. Of course no one with a captain's license would be in charge of a boat not to spec right?
State Registration is a State by State requirement and again not a tenant of the federal government; however proof of ownership may be by your state's registration.
The federal government cannot be deputized to execute state's law; the state, however, can do whatever they want.

 

[mobocracy]

As for boarding authority; without getting into a long lecture about US code and Code of Federal regulations, the basic law is, Coast Guard personnel are empowered to enforce all Federal Laws on the water (where there is Federal jurisdiction, which is not every body of water) and are also custom officers. There are given the authority to board and search without a warrant and without probable cause, to inspect papers, cargos, safety equipment and so on. Yes, it may seem that your right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure is being violated, but if you examine the reasoning behind it and the history of it you will realize the necessity.

I guess I wish I had a constitutional law professor handy to explain to me how Congress has the power to statutorily negate the rights of the constitution. My understanding has always been that the rights defined in the constitution cannot be abridged by ordinary law, only through Supreme Court interpretation and constitutional amendment. Congress can't statutorily negate the right to free speech, a jury trial or re-institute slavery.

By the expedience logic applied to the USCG, Congress could grant the FBI the power to search interstate vehicle traffic without probable cause and to ensure that the rules of interstate commerce were being followed and that vehicles had the necessary papers and safety equipment. Yet I'm sure that the FBI still loses search and seizure cases and still obtains warrants subject to probable cause. No, I don't think that the TSA searches before boarding an airplane are the same, either, as agreeing to a search is part of the voluntary contract entered into when choosing to use commercial air travel. No contract is in force for maritime travel within US waters.

In terms of practical necessity, I'm willing to grant the USCG these powers within the defined territorial waters and some distance inland for the purposes customs enforcement and national security. Yet it seems that this power is used quite often on non-commercial recreational vessels for weak reasons. Many recreational vessels incapable of ocean transit or meaningful commerce are boarded in intercoastal waterways where they are not a threat to national security or extremely unlikely to be engaged in cargo transit. Open water boardings are terribly inefficient methods of verifying safety equipment, operational paperwork or ownership.

Bottom line is I get why the USCG needs to do what it does, but think the emphasis on recreational traffic without substantive reasons to believe they are involved in violations of customs, security or safety hazards is an inappropriate abuse of civil liberties and a misuse of limited resources.

 

[boatman37]

As a former LEO I would have no problem if they wanted to board my boat. Even sit and relax with them for awhile.

 

[Blkbird]

So you keep these items in your binder:
1) ALEXANDER HAMILTON'S LETTER OF INSTRUCTIONS
2) Original Documentation Certificate (not a copy)
3) Proof of safety course or captain's license (is this a requirement in every state for every vessel?)
4) State/Local registration (if required)

Anything else?
- Record of last black water clean out?

 

[k9medic]

So you keep these items in your binder:
1) ALEXANDER HAMILTON'S LETTER OF INSTRUCTIONS
2) Original Documentation Certificate (not a copy)
3) Proof of safety course or captain's license (is this a requirement in every state for every vessel?)
4) State/Local registration (if required)

Anything else?
- Record of last black water clean out?

For me in Florida there is no requirement to show a proof of safety course due to my age.

I also do not have to show my last pump out. Key West does require one when you dock though.

In my binder you will also find previous copies of inspections as well as the required rules of the road document.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WDCboater]

Proof of Safety Course or Captain's License?? A Safety Course is state by state and not a tenant of the USCG. The only requirement to yield proof of a Captain's License is if one is executing duties as a Captain like paying passengers or commercial work for hire and the USCG is inspecting when this is in process. Now presenting your six-pack as identification during the inspection is not a bad thing especially if your boat is up to spec. Of course no one with a captain's license would be in charge of a boat not to spec right?
State Registration is a State by State requirement and again not a tenant of the federal government; however proof of ownership may be by your state's registration.
The federal government cannot be deputized to execute state's law; the state, however, can do whatever they want.

You can argue with them if you want, but in DC waters you're required to have proof of passing a safety course. It's one of the first things they ask for when boarding. I mention captains license in lieu of a safety card. It's a D.C. Requirement, but D.C. Isn't a state and federal agencies have broad jurisdiction here. D.C. owns the river until you hit the Virginia shore.

Virginia now now requires a safety class for all operators. (This was phased in) As does Maryland.

 

[ttmott]

You can argue with them if you want, but in DC waters you're required to have proof of passing a safety course. It's one of the first things they ask for when boarding. I mention captains license in lieu of a safety card. It's a D.C. Requirement, but D.C. Isn't a state and federal agencies have broad jurisdiction here. D.C. owns the river until you hit the Virginia shore.

Virginia now now requires a safety class for all operators. (This was phased in) As does Maryland.

So, are you saying if I, from Florida, pass through those waters with a boat that documented and registered in Fl where no such requirements exists that I'm in violation of DC or Virginia, or Maryland jurisdiction (federal or not)?
I doubt they (the USCG or state) would go down that road. Your initial post alluded to be generic across the nation which is not the case.
Now for Virginia and Maryland if you are a resident and have a USCG safety inspection but don't have the state's credentials are they going to give you a federal citation? Doubt that too; now they may hold you and summon the state authorities who then can cite the captain.

 

[Henry Boyd]

I guess I wish ......

..... Bottom line is I get why the USCG needs to do what it does, but think the emphasis on recreational traffic without substantive reasons to believe they are involved in violations of customs, security or safety hazards is an inappropriate abuse of civil liberties and a misuse of limited resources.

No criticism of your opinion intended, but that point of view is precisely why we have to be vigilant. If the notion that recreational boats can't be violating the law were to become prevalent, it then becomes a weakness that could be exploited.

Henry


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[MonacoMike]

I guess I wish I had a constitutional law professor handy to explain to me how Congress has the power to statutorily negate the rights of the constitution. My understanding has always been that the rights defined in the constitution cannot be abridged by ordinary law, only through Supreme Court interpretation and constitutional amendment. Congress can't statutorily negate the right to free speech, a jury trial or re-institute slavery.

By the expedience logic applied to the USCG, Congress could grant the FBI the power to search interstate vehicle traffic without probable cause and to ensure that the rules of interstate commerce were being followed and that vehicles had the necessary papers and safety equipment. Yet I'm sure that the FBI still loses search and seizure cases and still obtains warrants subject to probable cause. No, I don't think that the TSA searches before boarding an airplane are the same, either, as agreeing to a search is part of the voluntary contract entered into when choosing to use commercial air travel. No contract is in force for maritime travel within US waters.

In terms of practical necessity, I'm willing to grant the USCG these powers within the defined territorial waters and some distance inland for the purposes customs enforcement and national security. Yet it seems that this power is used quite often on non-commercial recreational vessels for weak reasons. Many recreational vessels incapable of ocean transit or meaningful commerce are boarded in intercoastal waterways where they are not a threat to national security or extremely unlikely to be engaged in cargo transit. Open water boardings are terribly inefficient methods of verifying safety equipment, operational paperwork or ownership.

Bottom line is I get why the USCG needs to do what it does, but think the emphasis on recreational traffic without substantive reasons to believe they are involved in violations of customs, security or safety hazards is an inappropriate abuse of civil liberties and a misuse of limited resources.

While I tend to agree with your sentiments, it is really quite simple. There is no 4th amendment violation to search your luggage when you arrive back in the US from a trip abroad because you are or have been off the land the constitution applies to, Your boat is off the "land" the constitution applies to.

Now if the 9th circuit decision the constitution applies to non-citizens in other countries...

MM

 

[MonacoMike]

You can argue with them if you want, but in DC waters you're required to have proof of passing a safety course. It's one of the first things they ask for when boarding. I mention captains license in lieu of a safety card. It's a D.C. Requirement, but D.C. Isn't a state and federal agencies have broad jurisdiction here. D.C. owns the river until you hit the Virginia shore.

Virginia now now requires a safety class for all operators. (This was phased in) As does Maryland.

So, are you saying if I, from Florida, pass through those waters with a boat that documented and registered in Fl where no such requirements exists that I'm in violation of DC or Virginia, or Maryland jurisdiction (federal or not)?
I doubt they (the USCG or state) would go down that road. Your initial post alluded to be generic across the nation which is not the case.
Now for Virginia and Maryland if you are a resident and have a USCG safety inspection but don't have the state's credentials are they going to give you a federal citation? Doubt that too; now they may hold you and summon the state authorities who then can cite the captain.

What happened to "full faith and credit" from the constitution to honor the boat operator regulation followed by residents of the US from other states?

BoatUS should sue to stop this.

Do states have an obligation to honor other states boaters? In federal waters?

Does my online BoatUS course certificate count?


MM

 

[RidgeRunner]

OP here, guess what ? We went out for a evening cruise last night and...... yep, THEY HIT ME AGAIN !:wow:
So I've had:
1 VSC,
1 detailed inspection at sea,
and then again last night. They were very courteous
Granted, once they VERIFIED the yellow paperwork was within date, all they inquired about was lifejackets, But still.
I think I'm done.
Future boarding attempts will be meet with resistance.

 

[mobocracy]

No criticism of your opinion intended, but that point of view is precisely why we have to be vigilant. If the notion that recreational boats can't be violating the law were to become prevalent, it then becomes a weakness that could be exploited.

What evidence do they have that recreational boats are so significantly in violation of the law that frequent boardings of recreational vessels are necessary and expedient? Where's the policy logic (ie, this is the most efficient way to use our resources to achieve our goal) and the probable cause logic that any specific vessel in question is violating the law?

Any random person walking down the street *could* be violating the law, yet we're still (sort of...) unwilling to accept random security checks, roadblocks and "papers, please" inspections of those people.

 

[mobocracy]

While I tend to agree with your sentiments, it is really quite simple. There is no 4th amendment violation to search your luggage when you arrive back in the US from a trip abroad because you are or have been off the land the constitution applies to, Your boat is off the "land" the constitution applies to.

That's too pedantic. A scheduled airliner landing in the US from a foreign country is prima facie evidence you have crossed the border and are returning from foreign soil. Being in a cabin cruiser with a mid-rpm range of 110 miles in the Chesapeake Bay is almost prima facie evidence you have not left the US.

Nor do I believe that the Constitution "ends" at the water's edge when the water in question is within the recognized territory of the United States.

 

[lawndoctor]

I'm actually happy to see them on patrol. We have so many idiots who have no idea what they're doing it's good to have them out there.

Exactly. The USCG has been professional and courteous every time I have dealt with them.

The problem I have is other agencies that have people who are obnoxious and/or don't know what they're doing. In the Philadelphia area, that consists mostly of NJ state troopers some of whom don't seem to have the requisite experience or training on the water, or knowledge of the law for that matter, to be engaged in boardings and inspections. I've had their people say some things to me that demonstrate patent ignorance, but having a discussion with them is pointless. I've also seen other agencies on the water in Washington, DC with personnel who don't know what they're doing. A few years back, I watched a LE boat (forget what agency, but it was not USCG) on the Georgetown waterfront collide at high speed with a Sea Ray tied up at the dock, because the LE driver started at full throttle to leave the marina and had the wheel turned too far over. There is a thread about it somewhere on here.

 

[WDCboater]

So, are you saying if I, from Florida, pass through those waters with a boat that documented and registered in Fl where no such requirements exists that I'm in violation of DC or Virginia, or Maryland jurisdiction (federal or not)?
I doubt they (the USCG or state) would go down that road. Your initial post alluded to be generic across the nation which is not the case.
Now for Virginia and Maryland if you are a resident and have a USCG safety inspection but don't have the state's credentials are they going to give you a federal citation? Doubt that too; now they may hold you and summon the state authorities who then can cite the captain.

Yes. If you enter Maryland or Virginia water and MD Fish and Wildlife or a VA police agency stops you, you can be cited for not having a safety certificate. The counties on the Potomac River patrol heavily, especially on weekends. They tend to be the boats you see South of D.C.

In D.C. USCG will also enforce as will D.C. Harbor Patrol, who tend to patrol with USCG.

I in no way meant to imply a boating safety certificate/course was required nationwide.

For anyone opposed to a safety course, maybe you should look into what's actually involved. Many can even be done online:
https://www.boat-ed.com/ (It's $30) For some states BoatUS has a free online course. http://www.boatus.org/free/ DC Police Harbor Patrol also offer free courses.

It teaches you the basics of navigation, right of way, safety, etc. You're required to do this to get a drivers license, it always amazed me people can operate a boat with no formal training.

 

[Blkbird]

Created my own binder for the boat. Added:

- Warranty of title
- Bill of Sale
- Proof of Insurance

 

[Woody]

Yes. If you enter Maryland or Virginia water and MD Fish and Wildlife or a VA police agency stops you, you can be cited for not having a safety certificate. The counties on the Potomac River patrol heavily, especially on weekends. They tend to be the boats you see South of D.C.

In D.C. USCG will also enforce as will D.C. Harbor Patrol, who tend to patrol with USCG.

I in no way meant to imply a boating safety certificate/course was required nationwide.

For anyone opposed to a safety course, maybe you should look into what's actually involved. Many can even be done online:
https://www.boat-ed.com/ (It's $30) For some states BoatUS has a free online course. http://www.boatus.org/free/ DC Police Harbor Patrol also offer free courses.

It teaches you the basics of navigation, right of way, safety, etc. You're required to do this to get a drivers license, it always amazed me people can operate a boat with no formal training.

Question 6

Does the law provide for any exemptions or exceptions to the boating safety education requirement?

Yes, but only a few.
boaters in possession of a valid license to operate a vessel issued to maritime personnel by the U. S. Coast Guard or a marine certificate issued by the Canadian government are already covered. The law also allows for:

-a 90 day temporary operator’s certificate for the owner(s) of a newly acquired boat. This nonrenewable temporary operator’s certificate would be issued along with the certificate of number (boat registration) and gives the owner(s) of a newly acquired boat 90 days within which to successfully complete a boater safety education course, or successfully complete the equivalency exam

-operation with a rental or lease agreement from a motorboat rental or leasing business and completion of a dockside safety checklist

-operation under onboard direct supervision of a person who already meets the education requirement (so you can teach your kids or other family members/friends how to more safely operate a boat)

-operation by non-residents operating a boat registered in another state if they meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of their state of residency

-operation by Virginia registered commercial fishermen (pursuant to Virginia Code § 28.2-241) or a person under their direct supervision while operating the commercial fisherman’s boat

-operation by law enforcement officers while they are engaged in the performance of their official duties

-operation of the motorboat due to the illness or physical impairment of the initial operator and is returning the boat to shore in order to provide assistance or care for the operator

-Provides documentation that he is serving or has qualified as a surface warfare officer or enlisted surface warfare specialist in the United States Navy.

-Provides documentation that he is serving or has qualified as an Officer of the Deck Underway, boat coxswain, boat officer, boat operator, watercraft operator, or Marine Deck Officer in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States, United States Coast Guard, or Merchant Marine.

Question 8
I think you’ve covered it already, but what’s the requirement for non-residents of Virginia?

Answer
If you are operating a boat registered in Virginia, you must comply with Virginia’s boating safety education requirement. If you are operating a boat registered in another state, but temporarily using the waters of Virginia for a period of 90 days or less, you must meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of your state.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/boating/education/faq/#what-boats-are-affected

 

[WDCboater]

Question 6

Does the law provide for any exemptions or exceptions to the boating safety education requirement?

Yes, but only a few.
boaters in possession of a valid license to operate a vessel issued to maritime personnel by the U. S. Coast Guard or a marine certificate issued by the Canadian government are already covered. The law also allows for:

-a 90 day temporary operator’s certificate for the owner(s) of a newly acquired boat. This nonrenewable temporary operator’s certificate would be issued along with the certificate of number (boat registration) and gives the owner(s) of a newly acquired boat 90 days within which to successfully complete a boater safety education course, or successfully complete the equivalency exam

-operation with a rental or lease agreement from a motorboat rental or leasing business and completion of a dockside safety checklist

-operation under onboard direct supervision of a person who already meets the education requirement (so you can teach your kids or other family members/friends how to more safely operate a boat)

-operation by non-residents operating a boat registered in another state if they meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of their state of residency

-operation by Virginia registered commercial fishermen (pursuant to Virginia Code § 28.2-241) or a person under their direct supervision while operating the commercial fisherman’s boat

-operation by law enforcement officers while they are engaged in the performance of their official duties

-operation of the motorboat due to the illness or physical impairment of the initial operator and is returning the boat to shore in order to provide assistance or care for the operator

-Provides documentation that he is serving or has qualified as a surface warfare officer or enlisted surface warfare specialist in the United States Navy.

-Provides documentation that he is serving or has qualified as an Officer of the Deck Underway, boat coxswain, boat officer, boat operator, watercraft operator, or Marine Deck Officer in any branch of the Armed Forces of the United States, United States Coast Guard, or Merchant Marine.

Question 8
I think you’ve covered it already, but what’s the requirement for non-residents of Virginia?

Answer
If you are operating a boat registered in Virginia, you must comply with Virginia’s boating safety education requirement. If you are operating a boat registered in another state, but temporarily using the waters of Virginia for a period of 90 days or less, you must meet the applicable boating safety education requirements of your state.

https://www.dgif.virginia.gov/boating/education/faq/#what-boats-are-affected

Correct.
In D.C. waters, there's no exception:
"Anyone operating a vessel on District of Columbia waterways is required to have a Boating Safety Certificate."
https://mpdc.dc.gov/page/boating-safety-courses