Turbo problem....

[Richard F]

Hi,
My name is Richard and just joined the club.
I bought a used 2005 335 Sundancer, with 2 x Volvo Penta KAD 300 DP-G, 2 years ago. It had 160 hrs on the clocks when I brought it. I clocked up another 80 hrs since then. I am quite happy with the boat but not really with the engines. Everytime I go out I have to keep my fingers crossed praying for no mechanical problem. Forget about the problems in the past I just had another one on Sunday. Both engines could only reach about 2300 revs (about 10 knots on the GPS). The superchargers were working but didn't feel the turbo ever came on. I was told that I properly need new turbo chargers. They only last 240 hrs? I had the engines serviced by Volvo in May which cost equivalent to U.S.$ 6,300 .......Can anyone advice what I should check before going into getting new turbo chargers....

 

[Lord Farringdon]

Hi Richard,

Glad to hear from another KAD-300/DP-G owner. I have 135 hours on my KAD so perhaps haven't experienced your problems yet. There are a couple of guys on this forum that have KAD's and a chap called oldSkool (Bill) who is a Volvo tech. They are all very helpful.

I have had my boat for just over 4 months and have recently had some overheating issues however I think it is related to kelp blocking the inlets (and perhaps even an airblock after having the stern drive removed for routine servicing). Otherwise, the motor has been fine and delivers good power even when the boat has four adults, full fuel and full water. I have learnt from these forums however, that bad fuel will kill a diesel real quick. The primary and secondary fuel filters must be changed in accordance with service schedules or earlier if fuel has been uplifted from suspect sources. Water in the fuel is another no no and you must keep your fuel tank full to prevent condensation forming on the tank walls and contaminating the fuel. The racor or water separator should be checked each day before use. Before you even start talking about turbochargers, bad fuel (diesel bug), water in the fuel and poor fuel filter maintenance are all issues which result in blocked injectors and loss of power.

Regarding the turbo on the KAD 300, it is vital that engine oil, oil filter and air filter be replaced at scheduled intervals. The turbo is lubricated with engine oil. According to the workshop manual, bearing failure in the turbo is nearly always caused by sludge deposits in the engine lubricating system.

OK, enough of the sermon on maintenance except to say that technical opinion on this and other forums all say that marine engines often end their lives much sooner than their design would allow, simply because of poor maintenance.

While I have some idea of what the previous owner did on my boat, I have been carrying out base level servicing to try prevent any issues arising through previous poor maintenance. That includes, stern drive servicing, universal and exhaust bellows replacment, new prop seal, zinc anodes, engine oil and filter change, coolant change, impellor replacement, air filter change, fuel filter change and drive belt replacements. Heat exchanger and turbo clean will be done next season and at 200 hours I will have Volvo check the valve clearances.

Now to your problem. I'm not sure how your twins are configured so far as fuel supply is concerned but since both your engines are exhibiting the same problem fuel is where I'd look first. Check your racors for water and change those primary and secondary filters. I can't imagine that both of your turbo chargers have packed up at the same time so I very much doubt this is the problem. Indeed, Im not sure how you know the turbochargers are not working? The superchargers will make a scream when they come on line but the turbos are always online. The turbo effectiveness may be established from turbo boost gauges if fitted or from a special tool. That said, if the engine(s) is particularly weak or if the exhaust is very smokey then the turbocharger function can be suspected. But as I said, I would check fuel quality and filters first.

Many of the comments I have read and heard from Volvo techs is that the KAD-300 is the last of a very sucessful line of engines. They were replaced by the new D4 and D6 engines that are distinguished by having a common rail fuel supply. The KAD 300 is however considered to be a high output/low weight engine suggesting the turbo charger/supercharger configuration creates good power but against an engine that may be at the limits of its design. It needs to be well maintained I suspect if it is to provide trouble free operation.

Welcome aboard Richard and I hope some of this helps.:thumbsup:


Terry

 

[melida]

Hi,
My name is Richard and just joined the club.
I bought a used 2005 335 Sundancer, with 2 x Volvo Penta KAD 300 DP-G, 2 years ago. It had 160 hrs on the clocks when I brought it. I clocked up another 80 hrs since then. I am quite happy with the boat but not really with the engines. Everytime I go out I have to keep my fingers crossed praying for no mechanical problem. Forget about the problems in the past I just had another one on Sunday. Both engines could only reach about 2300 revs (about 10 knots on the GPS). The superchargers were working but didn't feel the turbo ever came on. I was told that I properly need new turbo chargers. They only last 240 hrs? I had the engines serviced by Volvo in May which cost equivalent to U.S.$ 6,300 .......Can anyone advice what I should check before going into getting new turbo chargers....

Richard,
Wellcome on board.
I have a few friends in my country with 2005 335DAs with KAD44s and KAD300s. Also I have 2005 315DA with single KAD300. And both setups are perform great.
Long story short its not a common problem of Volvo Penta or KAD300, its a common turbo failure for every turbocharged diesel engine. So dont be afraid at th beginning.
$6300 seems to expensive, could you list what have done the mech for this money. Mainly he should check/fix/clean/replace the air and exhaust side of turbo, aftercooler, racor/separ fuel pre filter, "last chance" on engine 2 micron fuel filter, injection pump, injectors, engine oil and filter. Also how about the cleanness of the bottom, tabs, legs and the most important is PROPELLERS. Also wich set do you have on the drives, I guess C5.
Here below the link of the story nearly same problem with you I had.
http://clubsearay.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35319
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Lord Farringdon]

Hey Melida, glad you chimed in. I was feeling lonely out here!:lol:. Richard will get some good experienced advice from you.

Happy boating mate.


Terry

 

[melida]

Hey Melida, glad you chimed in. I was feeling lonely out here!:lol:. Richard will get some good experienced advice from you.

Happy boating mate.


Terry

Terry
Hi again.
Glad to know KAD300 owners are aggregating in CSR.:grin:
How is your boat/engine doing ?
I hope you got used to it for planning and cruising attitudes.
Hope to see your boat's pics and some cruising videos. Have you seen mine in the summer 2010 thread?
Best regards.
Melida

 

[melida]

Richard,
One other and important thing came to my mind after posting my first.
How much your outdrive/trim gauges show when they fully downed?. They MUST show -9 degrees. If they are -4 -5 you MUST service your outdrives or clean the trim pistons from barnacles etc. which prevent to fully close the pistons..
While the drives at -4 -5 degrees and at the acceleration time certain amount of water could ingest to turbo from exhaust side beacuse the stern heavly deeped and the bow of the boat is at the sky.
I strictly recommend you to check visually the exhaust side of the turbo for is there any rust, if there is then consider any crack or leak at the exhaust elbow.
My exhaust side of turbo has little rust and mech and I thinking to make a custom high SS elbow to raise the level of exhauts while accelerating to prevent water ingestion.
Best regards.
Melida.

 

[Richard F]

Hi Terry,

Thank you for your advice. I am so glad that we have almost idential boat (even the same colour by the look at it)....only I have trouble with mine.
I was always told by Volvo that I shouldn't have two KAD 300 in my boat. 335 is too small for two engines. It's difficult to work on which I agree.
I will surely check the filters again. Actually, this problem was there since I bought the boat two year ago. It was intermediate. When it goes well you feel the speed build up and when it passes 2300 revs a "roar" comes on (that's what I believe the turbos cut-in) and you can really feel it goes. With that, there is no problem with 35~38 knots in WOT. It seems to me that the problem happens more often when I got a few people on board. But last weekend it happened all the time even with just myself on board. Its just unfortunate that it didn't happen when I hired a survivor to survey the boat when I bought it and also it didn't happen when volvo did the test run after the service.
I was also told by Volvo that the EDC automatically control both engines revs so you can't have one engine runs much faster than the other. So even if I have only one bad turbo I still can't have the other turbo to cut-in? I once experienced the compressor belt on one engine broke because of the tensioner bearing ceased up. I killed that engine and tried to use just the other engine alone to get home. Somehow the EDC still won't let me go over 2000 revs. Since that time, I always check all the belts before and after I go out.
The boat always service or repair by Sea Ray agent or Volvo since the last owner. The last service was a major one too (200 hrs)!

Again, thank you for your advice and I see what I find out this weekend! Meanwhile, I would appreciate any advice or suggestion anyone could offer!

Richard

 

[Richard F]

Hi Melida,
Thank you for your advice and suggestions.
The last service with Volvo suppose to be a 200 hrs service with about 32 items replaced. They have also taken the sterns out to clean because one engine temp. always shows high (210 F but never alarm out) while the other shows 190 F. I was later told that the stern drive control cables were also replaced. After the service at the sea trial, the temp. still read the same and Volvo guy couldn't explain why even after the cooling passage has been cleaned and new impellers replaced.
Mind you Volvo service is always expensive here and they are very busy too. Last time I called for help but the earliest they could come was 14 days. Instead of sitting down and wait for 14 days, I started to look at things logically and resolved the problem after 4 days. Sea Ray agent wasn't any better either, they said they will call me back ...and i am still waiting. That was 3 weeks ago.
When Terry mentioned about "fuel" I am not sure if the same fuel will do the same to other engines too. A friend, a few berths further down, has a 2006 Sea Ray 375 but with twin Yanmar inboard. We go out quite often and we all get fuel from the same Marina Club fuel station. I don't think he has got any problem so far. Anyway, I will check that first thing tomorrow.
I don't recall the trim positions as you asked but I can check it out over the weekend. I normally have the trims down to the right bottom postion. Since you mentioned the exhaust side of the turbo....that rings the bell.... this problem came up more often when I had most load at aft.
A Volvo guy told me before it's quite common that the flange got corroded so badly and have a big gap around the fan..... which looses the pressure. I will definitely check this too. Anyone got the turbo manual?
Just for information, I could bring up the speed to about 2300 revs about 10 knots(throttle lever about 1/3 travel) with no problem. Then no more increase when I push the lever further down even to WOT position (both engines). Anymore advice?
Hope it won't rain tomorrow so I can work on the boat. Wish me luck !
Cheers,
Richard

 

[melida]

Richard,

32 items for 2 engine and 2 leg in the 200hr service is normal, 16 per engine. But $3200 too expensive. I thought my country is the most expensive for boating but your's is more then mine.

Anyway maybe you should order your parts online and pay for labor to the VP tech for next year to minimize the cost of annual maintenance.

Engine temp is not only related to blockage of stern drive raw water intake and raw water hoses, also there is engine coolant temperature sensor on the exhaust elbow and charge air temperature sensor on the top side of the engine under the cover.(you can see it in the owners manual page 61 electrical components diagram). Tell your mech to also check these.

I had nearly same problem as you have. My engine was not going fast more than 2800-2900rpm which I have to reach 3000rpm to get on plane altough the bottom and gear was clean. Mech disassembled the aftercooler, turbo, injectors and took them to his workshop. Cleaned and flushed aftercooler, cleaned and replaced the service kit of turbo, send the injectors to Bosch tune-up which the nozzles got bad and made mammas have to replaced(but not yet). Also drained the coolant/antifreeze and filled fresh. Also cleaned and flushed the heat exchanger.

After all these boat did perfect with full diesel, water, dinghy/motor on platform, campers on and 4 adults onboard.

One of my father's boat is 2004 395DA with twin Yanmar 315HP as your friend has in his 375DA. We both buy diesel from same place which my marina sells. Last time I bought same time with my dad, just after leaving the gas station in the no wake zone about 1500 rpm before kompressor kicked in I felt something happened like the fuel injection pump was not wanted to pump fuel to the injectors and I difficultly got up on plane while my dad had no trouble and quickly dissapeared. So, Volvo Penta engines are too much fuel sensitive. As Terry mentioned frequently check your racor bowl even you wont see any red/black color or water under the bowl drain it and use 10 MICRON filter.

Insist to your mech to clean and service the turbo and aftercooler before trying to sell you 2 turbo and then do a sea trial. Also have him bring the "VODIA" to read all the engine parameters especially boost pressure while the problem arises.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Best regards.
Melida

 

[melida]

Terry, Richard,
Please pm me your email, I'm gonna send you the workshop manual of "Fuel & Lubrication System" and "Intake, Exhaust, Cooling Systems".
These contain much more then the owners manual and have brief explanation more then do it yourself tasks.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Richard F]

Hi Melida,

Thanks again. My email: richard@fumaneng.com

regards,
Richard

 

[melida]

Richard,
I send you two emails to times, files zipped and unzipped.
But after sending receiving delivery status failure email.
Each file have 8Mb size maybe too large for email.
Do you have msn or any similar file transfer program.
Best regards.
Melida

 

[Richard F]

Melida,
8M is too big to send by email. Let me have your email address and I send you a link to up load them to my company server.
Thanks.
Richard

 

[melida]

Melida,
8M is too big to send by email. Let me have your email address and I send you a link to up load them to my company server.
Thanks.
Richard

Richard,
email sent to your mail adress.

 

[Lord Farringdon]

Hi Richard/Melida,

Firstly Melida, thanks for the offer of the workshop manuals but, I already have hardcopies of them all including the parts catalogue. Thanks anyway. The two manuals you are sending to Richard are the most useful ones although the "Fuel and Lubrication System" is a handy manual to have as well.

Richard, something which I don't think has been discussed yet is whether or not you noticed the EDC diagnostic light go on during the reduced power episodes? The Fuel System EDC workshp manual which Melida is sending you, has a number fault code solutions which may be helpful. It surprising how many faults automatically result in the engine(s) running at reduced power until fixed.

Good Luck


PS Melida/Richard. Have you guys had any problems with the seawater impellor pump not pumping after you have opened the seawater filter and checked it for cleanliness? I'm now pretty sure that's what my overheating problem was. It seems that once you 'crack' the lid of the seawater filter, air gets in and the water drops down to the boat water level which is just below the impellor in my boat. I refit the filter and tighten the seawater filter cap but in doing so I am immediately creating an airlock. I start the motor and the impellor cover plate gets hot (44 degees C on the temperatre gun) indicating seawater is not flowing. I 'crack' the filter cap again (while the motor is running) and this releases the air and creates a vacumn which then allows inlet seawater to reach the impellor and start flowing. I use the temperature gun again and the cover plate temperature has immediately dropped to 21 degrees C indicting seawater is now flowing. Do you guys have this problem? :huh:


Terry

 

[OldSkool]

Sorry, this is a duplicate.

 

[OldSkool]

Gents,
Just picked up the thread and don't have a lot of time to respond. What is your boost pressure when running through the torque band and from low idle to high idle? How much fuel pressure do you have? It is most uncommon for both engines to have turbo issues. Turbos do not come and go they either work or are broken. Have you have the software in the computer evaluated or updated. wiring harness and sensors can also cause this problem. Since it is intermediate and both engines are involved I would be looking at sensors, harness, fuel pressure and in some cases exhaust restriction has been know to keep the turbos from spooling up. What goes in must come back out. WHen WOT is not achieved does the exhuast burn black. If so this is sign that it is over fuel (possible turbo related) if not the it may be one of the other items I listed above.



I'll come back to you with more later today.

 

[Richard F]

Terry,

It's good to hear more advices from you guys. I only have the KAD 300 owner's manual. It only has basic maintenance notes. I have tried many times hoping for the EDC to give me some clues but it only gives me 1.1 I had the turbo exhaust elbows out yesterday and see if there is anything obvious (since I don't have a manual for it). I sent Melida some pixs via email for his opinion. (They look too bad to me) I put them back and did another calibration on the control and see if there is any miracle. The problem still the same. Both engines went up to about 2300 revs (1/3 of the WOT position) and won't go any faster. I noticed one engine did try to "roar" ( in the past when this happened it will build up speed and go on plane) but dropped back at about 2500 revs. When this happened I notice heavy smoke came out at the exhaust. The STB engine just stayed at 2300 revs regardless to the position of the throttle.
Guys, any suggestion after seeing these pixs? Do you think 2 engines on this boat is too much weight at stern?

Richard

 

[Richard F]

Gents,
Just picked up the thread and don't have a lot of time to respond. What is your boost pressure when running through the torque band and from low idle to high idle? How much fuel pressure do you have? It is most uncommon for both engines to have turbo issues. Turbos do not come and go they either work or are broken. Have you have the software in the computer evaluated or updated. wiring harness and sensors can also cause this problem. Since it is intermediate and both engines are involved I would be looking at sensors, harness, fuel pressure and in some cases exhaust restriction has been know to keep the turbos from spooling up. What goes in must come back out. WHen WOT is not achieved does the exhuast burn black. If so this is sign that it is over fuel (possible turbo related) if not the it may be one of the other items I listed above.



I'll come back to you with more later today.

Bill,

Thank you for more advice. I haven't got any of these figures. Do I need to call a VP guy to do these? VP min. charges about US$ 910 to come down to have a look. It won't be something silly like a dead fish stuck inside the exhaust?

Richard

 

[douglee25]

Those turbos look pretty carboned up to me.

Doug