Water in Westerbeke Gen Oil

[scooper321]

I actually use it when I change the antifreeze out in my engines. I also test the pressure and look for leaky hoses etc. I find it very useful in early detection of failing hoses and clamps. I go 5 lbs. above the cap pressure which should revile any possible failures before they happen.

Did you need any adapters or just the Stant kit?

 

[techmitch]

I actually use it when I change the antifreeze out in my engines. I also test the pressure and look for leaky hoses etc. I find it very useful in early detection of failing hoses and clamps. I go 5 lbs. above the cap pressure which should revile any possible failures before they happen.

Yep, gotta bump the rev limiter sometimes.

 

[Skybolt]

Did you need any adapters or just the Stant kit?

No just the metal cap(s) that come with the kit, one of them should fit. The rest of the kit is for other automotive radiator types.

Just as an FYI, Stant is a popular radiator radiator/thermostat manufacturer. They make other things as well, but specialize in those two items. They also make specialty tools like the cooling system tester. IMO, they make the best caps/thermostats in the industry.

You may think a radiator cap is just that, a cap, but it is one of the most important pieces in the cooling system. A proper ft. lb. rating is needed to ensure that when that pressure is reached the cap allows coolant to escape and go into the expansion tank. Also it must open enough to allow the coolant back into the cooling system as it cools so the system stays full.

It is very important that when you check the coolant level that the coolant be cold, this will show you the real level of the coolant and why the expansion tank(s) are so important. If a cooling system is functioning properly, the cap never needs to be opened and only the reservoir needs to be checked.

Because my engines are so temperamental when it comes to operating temperature, I inspect the rubber washers on the caps every so often and/or just replace them. A simple cap failure could cause my engines to overheat and need to be rebuilt. A 20K venture over a $5 part. I keep a few new ones on board at all times.

 

[ttmott]

The generators are installed somewhat above the water line so gravity infiltration of raw water isn't really possible.
The exhaust manifold is aluminum and serves as the engine coolant expansion tank.
Raw water is injected into the exhaust down stream of the exhaust manifold.
If the raw water vacuum breaker is compromised there is a chance raw water may syphon back and fill the exhaust which will then get into the cylinders and oil.
On all QD series generators you can get the error code from the system which will help tell the story. Code 1 is high engine temp, Code 4 is overcrank, Code 7 is loss of raw water flow, etc.
Was the water in oil engine coolant or raw water?
I have heard in overheat conditions the expansion tank/exhaust manifold cracking but there would have to be multiple sensor/shutdown issues to occur.

 

[Skybolt]

The generators are installed somewhat above the water line so gravity infiltration of raw water isn't really possible.
The exhaust manifold is aluminum and serves as the engine coolant expansion tank.
Raw water is injected into the exhaust down stream of the exhaust manifold.
If the raw water vacuum breaker is compromised there is a chance raw water may syphon back and fill the exhaust which will then get into the cylinders and oil.
On all QD series generators you can get the error code from the system which will help tell the story. Code 1 is high engine temp, Code 4 is overcrank, Code 7 is loss of raw water flow, etc.
Was the water in oil engine coolant or raw water?
I have heard in overheat conditions the expansion tank/exhaust manifold cracking but there would have to be multiple sensor/shutdown issues to occur.

Tom, @scooper321 has a Westerbeke 8.0BTDA and is equipped with a plastic expansion tank reservoir for over flow that is separate from the exhaust manifold tank. The BTDA is a non electronic engine and as such doesn't produce any codes.

But to your point, if the vacuum break is compromised, that could cause an issue and be the source of water intrusion. I mentioned this earlier in this thread.

 

[ttmott]

Tom, @scooper321 has a Westerbeke 8.0BTDA and is equipped with a plastic expansion tank reservoir for over flow that is separate from the exhaust manifold tank. The BTDA is a non electronic engine and as such doesn't produce any codes.

But to your point is the vacuum break is compromised that could cause and issue and be the source of water intrusion. I mentioned this earlier in this thread.

OK understand. But my point is the exhaust manifold is the engine coolant reservoir. The engine coolant serves to cool the exhaust manifold. The plastic tank is the coolant expansion recovery bottle.

 

[PlayDate]

The generators are installed somewhat above the water line so gravity infiltration of raw water isn't really possible.
The exhaust manifold is aluminum and serves as the engine coolant expansion tank.
Raw water is injected into the exhaust down stream of the exhaust manifold.
If the raw water vacuum breaker is compromised there is a chance raw water may syphon back and fill the exhaust which will then get into the cylinders and oil.
On all QD series generators you can get the error code from the system which will help tell the story. Code 1 is high engine temp, Code 4 is overcrank, Code 7 is loss of raw water flow, etc.
Was the water in oil engine coolant or raw water?
I have heard in overheat conditions the expansion tank/exhaust manifold cracking but there would have to be multiple sensor/shutdown issues to occur.

Tom.....I believe we do not have an answer yet to the question of whether it was coolant or raw water. I'm hoping for raw water......but the pressure test will sort it out quickly. The OP did not check the reservoir as of this post so he doesn't know if he lost coolant. If he has ......that is not good news. Again the pressure test will confirm it one way or another.

BTW I have never heard of doing a hot pressure test. I'm not saying that is a bad thing....just that I have never heard of one being done.

 

[Skybolt]

OK understand. But my point is the exhaust manifold is the engine coolant reservoir. The engine coolant serves to cool the exhaust manifold. The plastic tank is the coolant expansion recovery bottle.

Yes, sorry a typo in that post. Thanks for pointing it out. I corrected it as not to add any confusion.

But actually you had a typo as well. You stated the exhaust manifold serves as the expansion tank.

The exhaust manifold is aluminum and serves as the engine coolant expansion tank

 

[Skybolt]

... BTW I have never heard of doing a hot pressure test. I'm not saying that is a bad thing....just that I have never heard of one being done.

I have never bothered doing it that way as there isn't enough value in it for me. It can bring a small crack to light a little better then when it is cold. Some cracks can only be seen by magna fluxing the component but when hot it expands and can sometimes be seen more readily.

 

[scooper321]

BTW I have never heard of doing a hot pressure test. I'm not saying that is a bad thing....just that I have never heard of one being done.

I have messed around under the hood on enough cars (and my boats) to think that this idea sounds dangerous! LOL But I understand the reasoning...

@PlayDate is correct: I haven't determined whether it's water or coolant yet. The coloring of the oil is the same as "coffee regular" (as they say in NY), meaning coffee with milk. Don't recall seeing any pink tint to it, or if the pink coloring would even remain at this point. I'm going to head down to the boat later this afternoon and see what I tell about the remaining coolant level and what's in the oil. I also did just order the Stant pressure tester. The metallic construction seems more robust than the other options. It should be here tomorrow, so I can do the test on Friday or Saturday.

I don't know where the raw water vacuum breaker would be located or how to test it. Is this a high probability cause or a far less likely possibility? Wouldn't the unit have hydro locked by now if there were raw water getting into cylinders?

 

[ttmott]

But first things first - get that valve cover off and get the cream off of the top end. Get the oil drained and fresh oil in then crank the engine with seacock and fuel shut off for extend periods of time to get oil pressure up and fresh oil through the system. Change oil again - rinse and repeat.
That's an expensive engine and easy to avoid a replacement.

 

[Skybolt]

... I don't know where the raw water vacuum breaker would be located or how to test it. Is this a high probability cause or a far less likely possibility? Wouldn't the unit have hydro locked by now if there were raw water getting into cylinders?

Off of the exhaust elbow there would be a hose that leads up higher then the water line. It is a loop and has a connector that when the engine is not running will allow air into the hose and "break" the suction keeping the water in the line and allow it flow back to the waterline level.

 

[PlayDate]

But first things first - get that valve cover off and get the cream off of the top end. Get the oil drained and fresh oil in then crank the engine with seacock and fuel shut off for extend periods of time to get oil pressure up and fresh oil through the system. Change oil again - rinse and repeat.
That's an expensive engine and easy to avoid a replacement.

I disagree....the first thing to do a pressure test on the cooling system.

That drives what happens next. If it fails the pressure test (which will in all likelihood push more coolant into the engine) and a subsequent compression test......cleaning the valve cover and valve train is going to happen when the head comes off.

If it passes the pressure test.....then I am all for pulling the valve cover and cleaning up the engine. That would be a great outcome to have.

 

[ttmott]

I disagree....the first thing to do a pressure test on the cooling system.

That drives what happens next. If it fails the pressure test (which will in all likelihood push more coolant into the engine) and a subsequent compression test......cleaning the valve cover and valve train is going to happen when the head comes off.

If it passes the pressure test.....then I am all for pulling the valve cover and cleaning up the engine. That would be a great outcome to have.

I'd get the engine to a point it won't be damaged by corrosion as the first priority. Then figure out what has happened. I wouldn't assume the head needs to come off. Anyway you look at the situation the sound enclosure must come off then the valve cover is just four or so bolts. Get the water our of the system.

 

[PlayDate]

I guess this is the part of the thread where we disagree among ourselves over the sequence. The OP has already changed the oil which put him onto the track that there was water/coolant mixed with the oil.

If the overheat caused it.....20 hours of running occurred between that event and changing the oil.

If it is water....as I hope it is.....the engine needs to be cleaned up and the oil changed once it passes the pressure test.

If it is coolant.....he will be pushing more coolant into the combustion chamber (if it is a head gasket) by pressurizing the cooling system to test it. That coolant will find its way to the crankcase and needs to be removed.

I don't believe, given these circumstance that the priority is to clean the valve cover and change the oil. Given the amount of time it takes to do a pressure test.....15-20 minutes.....it certainly should follow that effort. I have a hard time believing that 15-20 minutes worth of time will create more corrosion.

 

[scooper321]

I guess this is the part of the thread where we disagree among ourselves over the sequence. The OP has already changed the oil which put him onto the track that there was water/coolant mixed with the oil.

If the overheat caused it.....20 hours of running occurred between that event and changing the oil.

If it is water....as I hope it is.....the engine needs to be cleaned up and the oil changed once it passes the pressure test.

If it is coolant.....he will be pushing more coolant into the combustion chamber (if it is a head gasket) by pressurizing the cooling system to test it. That coolant will find its way to the crankcase and needs to be removed.

I don't believe, given these circumstance that the priority is to clean the valve cover and change the oil. Given the amount of time it takes to do a pressure test.....15-20 minutes.....it certainly should follow that effort. I have a hard time believing that 15-20 minutes worth of time will create more corrosion.

The pressure tester arrives tomorrow and that seems easy to do (provided the tester cap fits under the lip of the cockpit floor). The coolant fill cap is tucked a little underneath! So I’m trying that first. Guess I’m sort of expecting that to fail?

And I’m game to try anything within my capabilities to solve this before writing a big check. I like the idea of getting any foam residue out of there. But I’ve never taken a valve or rocker cover off any engine before. Seems straightforward. Is it really just those four bolts? The manual describes so many disassembly steps ahead of that. I know I’m not disassembling the unit, but can I just remove the cover and nothing else? Obviously, I’ll need a new gasket. Do I drain the oil from the gen first? Will oil be dripping all over the place when I remove the cover or will it have all drained down into the oil pan?

Any other surprises in store for me?

 

[PlayDate]

So....my comments are about the test.

Specifically before you do anything else......check the overflow reservoir to see if it has coolant in it. If it is empty.....that is not a good sign. Conversely......it is a much better sign if it has coolant in it.

Next remove the pressure cap on the generator and note its pressure rating (should be stamped on it). If the reservoir was empty.....there is a good chance you won't see coolant when you pull the cap off.

Then hook up the tester. You will not need an adaptor and there should be sufficient clearance for it to be attached. I haven't seen a single Sea Ray generator or engine where it did not fit.

Next you pump up the tester until it reads the pressure stamped on the cap. Usually it is around 15-17 lbs. but I have seen some less and some more (The tester is rated up to 30lbs). Once you have built up enough pressure......it should hold the pressure for 8-10 minutes (I believe the Stant instructions say 2-5 minutes). If you have a leak.....the pressure will slowly drop during that time.

If the pressure holds and does not wavier......that is a good sign. If it drops.....then the next step is a compression test to find out where the problem is and things get more complicated and expensive from there.

As @Skybolt suggested testing the cap is also a good thing.

Good luck and we are all hoping for the best.

 

[Skybolt]

@scooper321 I agree with @PlayDate in that it's very easy to do the pressure test. I would focus on that at this point and see what the results are. If the pressure test fails you will need to get a mechanic involved to diagnose it further or repair it.

EDIT: See above, John's explanation is more detailed.

 

[scooper321]

So....my comments are about the test.

Specifically before you do anything else......check the overflow reservoir to see if it has coolant in it. If it is empty.....that is not a good sign. Conversely......it is a much better sign if it has coolant in it.

Next remove the pressure cap on the generator and note its pressure rating (should be stamped on it). If the reservoir was empty.....there is a good chance you won't see coolant when you pull the cap off.

Then hook up the tester. You will not need an adaptor and there should be sufficient clearance for it to be attached. I haven't seen a single Sea Ray generator or engine where it did not fit.

Next you pump up the tester until it reads the pressure stamped on the cap. Usually it is around 15-17 lbs. but I have seen some less and some more (The tester is rated up to 30lbs). Once you have built up enough pressure......it should hold the pressure for 8-10 minutes. If you have a leak.....the pressure will slowly drop during that time.

If the pressure holds and does not wavier......that is a good sign. If it drops.....then the next step is a compression test to find out where the problem is and things get more complicated and expensive from there.

As @Skybolt suggested testing the cap is also a good thing.

Good luck and we are all hoping for the best.

This was/is my plan, but I appreciate you laying it out in steps like that!

And yes, when I’m done the pressure test, I’m probably at the limits of my comfort level. That’s when the check book comes out. I’m handy to a point and I know my limits. My step son runs a marina nearby with a really good repair shop, one of the best around. So I’m confident I’ll get it fixed and not get raked over the coals. Just want diagnose what I can beforehand. Glad it’s November and not May!

 

[scooper321]

By the way, you guys have been great. Thank you. This is what CSR is all about and no FB group can ever replicate this community. Really appreciate (and enjoy) all the education and conversation!