We need the other side of the story. The FBI is infamous for manufacturing charges and misrepresenting facts in public statements. Were these guys just venting and talking shit or were they really close to conducting an actual kidnapping?
Recall Gretchen Whitmer - Michigan
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I was chastised on this site in the past by saying the us was a democracy. I was told at the time it was a "republic". But often it is said that it is a democratic republic, and sometimes as a representative democracy. But I don't really care about a fine line on terminology. Substitute what ever word you want to use in what I said, and then read it again.
You tell me where in the constitution it gives a minority of the people the right to overthrow the government duly elected by the constitutional process? I think that would be considered an insurrection, not a constitutional right. But give it a shot in December if the Dems win. But you better have a good lawyer on retainer. US law does in fact define insurrection:
18 U.S. Code § 2383.Rebellion or insurrection
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
There you go again. 6 dudes smoking weed in the Michigan forests concocting a "plan" does not signal the end of democracy in the US. Stop watching CNN.
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It isn't those 6. They are a symptom. It is thinking like this that I am talking about:
They aren't a symptom of anything. They are a fly on an elephant's ass. Completely irrelevant.
Third Ed's post really will have meaning when states threaten to succeed from the union after the democrats pack the supreme court and add two "blue" states. That's when you'll see the second civil war.
Third Edition
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Creekwood, your parlimentary system is vastly different from ours. Governor Whitmer has been found to be in violation of the Michigan state Constitution. She has been, and is, violating the law. Hopefully she'll be voted out or recalled. Short of that there is an established precedent. It's called the American Revolution. That is always on the table. Hence the 2d Amendment. The 2d Amendment is precisely there to keep in place the mechanisms to rein in run-away irresponsive government. I know it's hard for a Canadian to appreciate, perhaps. The US government gets its authority from the people. We took the authority away from the English, and that possibility is still there to take it back from runaway government, even a domestic one, if needed.
I think we all hope insurrection does not happen in MI or anywhere in the US, though it seems one side of the political spectrum here in the US does favor insurrection to achieve its goals.
I think we all hope insurrection does not happen in MI or anywhere in the US, though it seems one side of the political spectrum here in the US does favor insurrection to achieve its goals.
Woody
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This^^^^^^
Exactly......now step back about 4-5 years.....Accept the results of the election? Peaceful transition of power? Talk of impeachment from before the Presidents term began?....on and on, non-stop for years.
You're wondering what the hell happened to the USA?.....get in line because so are we
CaptRonn
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No, it is not often said it is a "democratic republic", except from people that are clueless. The word democracy does not appear in our constitution for a reason. Democracy equals mob rule. The framers recognized that and wanted to keep us away from it.
The US is a Constitutional Republic.
Take the time to read the federalist papers, and take a deep dive into the framework of the US constitution and why we have the rights and freedoms that we do. It's not there because the government gives us these rights.
The constitution was written to protect the citizens from the government.
"I hold it that a little rebellion now and then is a good thing, and as necessary in the political world as storms in the physical." Thomas Jefferson to James Madison 1787
"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." Thomas Jefferson
"the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure." Thomas Jefferson
On July 4, 1776, in addition to approving the Declaration of Independence, Congress chose Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin to design a great seal for the new country. Franklin proposed the phrase “Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God,” a sentiment Jefferson heartily embraced and included in the design for the Virginia seal and sometimes stamped it on the wax seals of his own letters. Although Congress rejected the elaborate seal, it retained the words “E Pluribus Unum,” which became the country's motto.
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Third Edition
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It has been said we have both: we have a representative democracy (indirect democracy) through the Constitution (Constitutional democracy).
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-the-united-states-a-republic-or-a-democracy.html
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/is-the-united-states-a-republic-or-a-democracy.html
JimT
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A true democracy is a system where every citizen has a vote on all major decisions. It has only existed in ancient Greece and only for a short period of time. The US is a representative democracy. Citizens elect government representative officials to run the government.
The founding fathers wrote the Constitution to protect states rights from federal intervention and to protect citizens from government intervention. All rights not granted are reserved. The Supreme Court over the years has bastardized the commerce clause to allow federal control over almost all commercial activity.
The lack of a coordinated response to Covid 19 is a result of our Constitution. Trump cannot order nationwide mask compliance. That is a local or statewide issue. He issued guidance but cannot enforce compliance. The lack of a consistent response from the federal government is a direct result of the form of our government.
The founding fathers wrote the Constitution to protect states rights from federal intervention and to protect citizens from government intervention. All rights not granted are reserved. The Supreme Court over the years has bastardized the commerce clause to allow federal control over almost all commercial activity.
The lack of a coordinated response to Covid 19 is a result of our Constitution. Trump cannot order nationwide mask compliance. That is a local or statewide issue. He issued guidance but cannot enforce compliance. The lack of a consistent response from the federal government is a direct result of the form of our government.
And thank god. As I have said before, true democracy is majority rule. Yet our systems has all kind of checks in place to prevent the majority from ruling. From the electoral college, to the bill of rights, to even the Senate filibuster -- all prevent the majority from running roughshod over the minority.
skibum
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I don't support kidnapping government officials. That being said, they need to tar & feather her and run her out of town on a rail. Or... vote her out. I suspect that she's history at the next opportunity for the people to replace her.
WHEN in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness—-That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government.
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But you have a roughly 50/50 split among Americans that are Democrats and Rebublicans. And based on current polls, for what they are worth, says is a slight left tilt (or maybe a slight anti-Trump tilt more so than left/right). So you are saying you support a civil war against the duly elected government after this election? If that does not scare the shit out of all of you, then America, and all it stands for, is doomed. You think the economy was impacted by COVID?
It is the normalization of this train of thought that is so dangerous for all of you. I know many of you are thinking that I am being alarmist. One of my views into the psyche of Americans is the views of CSR people, which I like to think are the upper middle class hard working Americans that are rational thinkers. But reading these kinds of posts makes me worried about the future of America. This line of thinking (truly considering armed overthrow of your government) in connection with the election, that will legitimize the far left or the far right and those that are mentally unstable, and the armed conspiracy theorists, just as much as the far right. You all can spout off about having the "right" to overthrow the government and then go back to your suburban house and stock up on ammo if that makes you feel better. But its not the rational internet superhero's that you should be worried about.
Continuing to support this line of thinking is very dangerous. Think of it this way, the radical LEFT has the same constitution and if they are looking at it that same way you are, but with respect to the current administration, then they presumably have the same right to overthrow the current administration. And you would say that they are wrong. But what if "they" is more than half of Americans? Of your neighbors down the street or in your town? This could escalate very quickly if the true leaders in the country BEFORE this election, don't use their position to calm this tension. Trump needs to do that and Biden needs to to that. And to be honest, I think people like you that have "liked" this train of thought need to also be leaders not dividers.
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skibum
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Ya just can't make this up. Whitmer blamed Trump for sending a “rallying cry” to “action" to white supremacists. Then, we find videos on the web of one of the perps with an Antifa flag in the background screaming "Trump is not your friend".
Don't worry Gretchen. You apparently weren't in any real danger. Your side has been telling us that Antifa is not a real organization. Its just an idea so you were safe all along.
Progressive. Good for the government, regressive to the people.
Don't worry Gretchen. You apparently weren't in any real danger. Your side has been telling us that Antifa is not a real organization. Its just an idea so you were safe all along.
Progressive. Good for the government, regressive to the people.
skibum
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The context of the posts on CSR needs to be read along side of the Constitution of the United States. If an elected government goes against the basic protections afforded us by the Constitution, then it is our duty and obligation to correct that. The Constitution's purpose was to limit the power afforded to the government and to protect the liberties that were given to us by our creator.
You are correct in that most of us on CSR are middle, upper middle, or upper class "rational" thinking Americans. You fears are justified but the questions that you need to ask yourself is, is the problem how the rational people react? Or is the problem how the irrational people are pushing them to that reaction? The thoughts and actions of rational people are usually not the problem.
Does it concern you at all that the Obama administration and the Clinton campaign used the intelligence agencies of our country as well as of several other countries to spy on their opponents campaign? Does it concern you at all that they tried every dirty trick in the book to sabotage a sitting president? To me, that is the very definition of treason, which is a death penalty offense in this country. Obama was the first President in history to NOT transfer power peacefully. He left office shamefully. Trump didn't deserve that regardless of what you think. He won fair and square. If they will try to take down an innocent sitting President, I'm thinking I might need to take some proactive steps to ensure that it doesn't happen to me. I am a very rational person. Right up until an external factor makes the opposite necessary.
Third Edition
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I too am worried about the future of America. A revolution starts in small outbursts. Think Seattle, think Portland, Minneapolis. Think the illegal actions of the Michigan Governor. Those outbursts either take shape and grow or subside. Let's hope they subside.
One side rose up and caused trouble in Seattle, Portland, Minneapolis, and elsewhere. It was not denounced by the leaders of that side. If it continues it will be countered by someone, someones.
It's hard for people to understand the US mentality. We are the same people who threw off the English in the late 1700s. We did it by force of arms. That mentality is still alive in this country. We were, and are, like the teenage brats who cannot wait to leave home and literally battle their parents for release.
Contrast that with the history of Canada. Some dates you are probably familiar with:
- July 1, 1867, with passage of the British North America Act by the British Parliament, the Dominion of Canada was officially established as a self-governing entity within the British Empire. However, it was still under British rule and did not have full legal autonomy.
- In 1931, England put Canada on equal footing with other Commonwealth countries through the Statute of Westminster, which essentially gave its dominions full legal freedom and equal standing with England and one another. However, Britain still had the ability to amend the Canadian constitution, and Canada took time to cut its legal ties to England.
- It took five decades after the Statute of Westminster for Canada to make its final step toward full sovereignty. In 1982, it adopted its own constitution and became a completely independent country. Although it’s still part of the British Commonwealth—a constitutional monarchy that accepts the British monarch as its own. Elizabeth II is Queen of Canada. However, her role is essentially ceremonial, and she does not interfere in Canadian self-governance.
I don't think the recent disturbances will result in much more upheaval. I hope it doesn't continue. Though it may be that the gauntlet was thrown down in the events of Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, etc., only to stay thrown down. If the side causing those disturbances persists you can bet they'll be countered. That will be regrettable, and it won't be me joining in, but it's understandable. We are a volatile impatient people.
You have to clearly recognize who started this. Not only the problems in the cities mentioned above, but in the illegality of Governor Whitmer's actions. It is not the right side of the political spectrum. It is not the conservatives.
It is the people who figure it's OK to riot, to loot, to endanger people -- particularly the people in their own neighborhoods. These are the temper tantrums of folks who, for whatever reason, aren't getting what they want. Not getting what they think they deserve. Is rioting the correct way? Is violating the Michigan Constitution the correct way? I think not, but the political left thinks it is.
Let's hope that lawless side stands down. That's the side promulgating the violent events in Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland and elsewhere. That's the side that thinks it's OK for the Michigan Governor to violate the Michigan Constitution. And then the Michigan Governor blames the president when his law enforcement catches the stupid perpetrators (who are on record as not liking the prez).
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Here is what you have to understand. The democrat left, led by a former President, wants to "fundamentally change the country." Those are their words, not mine. Not "improve the country," not "advance the country more in line with its founding principles," not make this a "better country," or a "greater country." But "fundamentally change." Why the fk would you "fundamentally change" the best country in the world. The country that has taken millions out out poverty around the globe. The country that ended slavery as we know it. The country where a middle class scrawny black man, with a funny name (he said something like that) can become The President. A country where a bartender can become a Congresswoman. A country where a refugee from a war torn country can become a Congresswoman. Etc. Etc.
What fundamental changes you ask?
1) Eliminate the electoral college -- allowing two or 3 states or regions to win every election;
2) Add two "states" which would all but guarantee their permanent control of the legislative branch.
3) Eliminate the filibuster -- the one legislative mechanism which required at least some consensus with the minority party.
4) Pack the Supreme Court with justices who will decide cases the way they want, making it a mini legislative body.
Now under those circumstances, if you are a "red" state why would you stick around? If the Democrats win in November we will be as close to a civil war as we were during the actual civil war.