410DA performance

[osd9]

Just thought that I would start a new topic for future searching. It would be nice to have a thread talking specifically about the 410DA.

I'm curious as to the performance of other 410DAs (specifically CAT powered 3116/3126 350HP)

This is my first season with my 410DA. I have read a few posts on this and other forums. I've also read the CAT Spec sheets.

My 410DA came from the factory with 22 X 23 Hy-torq Nibral props with a Light cup. The previous owner, in an effort to reach the recommended 2850 max RPM, had the props re-pitched to 22 X 22.25. When I had my CAT engine survey, the engines max'd out just under the recommended 2850 RPM via optical tach by the CAT Technician. I wanted a set of spare props, so I bought a new set of Hy-torq Nibral props and had them Prop Scanned (Atlantic in NJ) and pitched to 22 X 22. RPMs went right to 2850.... :grin:...
However, I only have the factory tachs to go by... :smt013 ...and IMHO they are garbage. They don't read the same, they sometimes don't read at all, they get stuck, they jump around in readings, etc, etc.....

I bought a set of digital tachs and I am in the process of installing them. Actually, I got them working last night. Hopefully this week I'll be finishing up on the final asthetics of the installation (then, I'll just have to control my anal compulsiveness and not worry about a few rpm differences).

Anyway, back to topic.....performance. This past weekend, with full fuel, full water, full refigerator, two POB and loaded for the weekend (my wife packed for a month), I ran (by factory tach) 2350 -2400 RPMs and made approximately 22 - 22.5 Knots (NOT mph). Speed measured via the onboard Raymarine RN-300.

I am taking the same trip this weekend, but this time I will have digital tachs and a Garmin handheld GPS as a second source of speed.

I will report back with my performance next week. In the mean time, I would appreciate if other 410DA owners would post their performance numbers for comparison. If we get enough repsonse, I'll put the numbers together.

It would be nice to have the following Info: Fuel load, Water load, Stuff load, POB, Cruise RPM, Cruise Speed (MPH or Knots), MAX RPM, MAX Speed( MPH or Knots), Props specs, and anything else you would consider significant.

BTW....at what RPM do you guys Cruise? CAT spec sheets recommend 2400 extended cruise, 2600 max cruise and 1/2 hour out of 6hours at the max 2800 RPM cruise.

 

[River Rat]

osd9:
Great idea... I will get some info for you next time we are out. It will be a couple of weeks before I can get this rounded up. I will be out of town, no boat :smt009
My props have been scanned at 22 x 23.
The tachs are an issue. I have set my engines with a photo tach and now only use the factory for reference.
99% of all are boating is done at 2400 rpm give or take a few.
Since we boat on a river I will need to get you some upstream / downstream numbers off of the GPS.

 

[fwebster]

That max cruise of 2600 rpm's bothers me. My manuals are on the boat and I'm not, so I'm not in a position to argue definitions. However, I think for pleasure craft applications 2400 is the max cruise rpm's for both 3116's and 3126's.

Truthfully, these engines have a sweet spot a few rpm's less at about 2200-2250, and given the difference in noise, fuel useage and overall comfort, not to mention the added longevity of engines, I usually opt for the lower power settings.

If you 410DA guys are going to compare performance numbers, you should all run up to WOT to verify that you can turn up 2800-2850 rpm's, let the engines stabilize, then pull back to 2400 for the comparison. If you cannot run up to rated WOT rpm's then any comparison isn't going to be valid.

 

[osd9]

That max cruise of 2600 rpm's bothers me. My manuals are on the boat and I'm not, so I'm not in a position to argue definitions. However, I think for pleasure craft applications 2400 is the max cruise rpm's for both 3116's and 3126's.

I don't even understand the "2600 RPM" number, and why there are two different cruise RPM recommendations. But.... the two cruise numbers ( 2400 and 2600) are on the CAT spec sheets on the boatdiesel site.....specifally under the 3126-TA 350HP engines....

 

[Skip]

Dom,
Not central to your thread, but the tachs on my 420 were occasionally a bit erratic as well. Cummins replaced the starboard tachometer pickup on the stbd main and now I have no more than a 100 RPM variance beween the gauges. The glendinning synch is nailed in the the vertical position at cruise so I don't worry too much about the variance. I am getting to the point I can sort of feel and hear the sweet spot.
Your CATs have a higher WOT rating than my C series Cummins-I turn 2650 WOT, my wheels are not scanned, and 2100 RPM cruise buys me around 20.5 GPH and 23.5-24.5 knots depending on wind and current. I am guessing your fuel burn is less than mine.
Skip

 

[osd9]

Danke, Herr Diesel

Hey Skip...you slipped that one in on us .... :thumbsup:

The tachs on my 410 sometimes get stuck at what ever my cruise RPMs were. For example, running at 2350 RPM then off plane to idle....the tachs still read 2350... :smt013 ....and will stay there no matter how hard I smack the guage with my Sears rubber flashlight....for an hour or more....!!!!!!

And then, as you stated, one will read higher and one will read lower. Normal human behavior has us relying on the one that gives us the lower RPM with the best economy and performance. However, when I go to confirm that I am reaching 2850 RPM (as stated many times to be THE most important number on the tachs) I don't know which one to rely on... :smt017

And then there is the erratic jumping needle... :smt021 ...no explanations needed here....

Once I get the digitals on board, I will have someone with an optical tach come by and cablibrate/confirm my dash RPM Readings. From all other post I've read, and two folks I spoke with, I am going to hug and kiss myself for installing the digital tachs....(at least someone will.... :grin: )

have a great day....see you in a few weeks...

 

[osd9]

I re-read Frank's comment and, as usual, he's right on the money.

If us 410DA owners are going to do this, we might as well do it right and from the same page. Below are some of the key points of data that I think should be recorded. Please feel free to add, subtract or comment.

Hopefully enough of us 410DA owners here will respond to make it worth while. It's always best to try and do fuel/performance runs under ideal, no wind, no current conditions. However, that's usually NOT the case. If you are on a swift running river, or the conditions are less than ideal, then "runs" in two directions would be best. At every RPM setting, you should let the boat settle in and adjust the tabs and throttle for max speed at the RPM setting.

Data to Record:

Fuel Load: 1/4, 1/2, Full

Water Load: 1/4, 1/2, Full

Gear (minimal, typical, my wife just packed the boat for the weekend)

Number of POBs

Props ( 22 X 22 LC prop scanned)

RPM at WOT (minimum 2800- closer to 2850 is preferable per CAT Tech)

Speed at WOT (indicate what was used to measure Speed)

Speed at 2600 RPM

Speed at 2500 RPM

Speed at 2400 RPM

Speed at 2300 RPM

Speed at 2250 RPM

Speed at 2100 RPM

I'm heading out for a long weekend to Atlantic City on Saturday AM, and will have plenty of travel time to "play" and record numbers. I installed my brandy spanking new Digital Tachs last night and they work Freakin' great...at the dock anyway....won't get to test for real until Saturday AM. But, at the dock, with engine sync on, those babys were Spot On..... :thumbsup:

 

[Steve36]

Hey, Dom do you have a picture of the tachs or maybe a website where I can see what they look like.

thanks.

 

[osd9]

Steve:

I bought the Aetna LCD Digital tachs.

http://www.aetnaengineering.com/8905-LCD-tachometer.asp

Jim Vander Hoeck is the owner and he is a very knowledgable and personable guy to deal with. He had a killer close out deal and I bought two. There are two issues that you have to work out.

1.) The new tachs have an outside diameter of 3 7/8" and require a hole cutout of 3 1/4". the factory cutouts are recessed and have an outside diameter of 5" and a hole cutout of approximately 4 1/2". If you want to use the factory cutouts, then you have to make a "ring" to make up the difference. The dimensions of the ring need to be 5" outer diameter and 3 1/4" Inside diameter. You will also have to make rear mounts as the aluminum ones that come with the tachs are too small for the new cutout and the stainless steel ones off the factory tachs are not (easily) retrofittable. I used 3/4" aluminum flat stock I bought in Home Depot for the new rear mounts. I made the first set of rings on the cheap out of Lexan from HD....good enough but just not right. I made the final set of rings from aluminum ...much better.....I had the 3 1/4" hole saw but I had to buy the 5" hole saw at, you guessed it, Home Depot ($42).

2.) The trim rings on the new tachs are gold plated. All the other gauges on the dash are silvertone. I plan to see if I can just "rub" the gold tone off of the new tachs That usually happens when you don't want the gold to come off, so I'll see how lucky I get with it when I want it to happen.

The wiring is basically plug and play. You just have to cut some tie wraps to gain wire length and then cap off the wire to the old tachs back light. You don't need to back light the new tachs as they are always on.

I'll try and get some pics and post the finished install before I leave for the weekend.

 

[osd9]

A few pics of the digital tachs....

 

[Skip]

Dom,
Really nice looking install. Look forward to seeing them in person-CJ can also show us his very professionally done DIY smartcraft install on the 320DA.

regards

Skip

 

[Steve36]

Very Nice !!

 

[ImpulseIII]

Just raw unadulterated talent......nice job Dominic :thumbsup:

 

[CJ Martin]

That does look slick. :thumbsup:

-CJ

 

[osd9]

Now...if they only work as good as they look....I should know by 10AM tomorrow....

 

[tc410]

Hey Dom-

Those look nice. I can't tell from the pictures, but do the new tachs have integrated hour meters? Also, it appears that the new tachs run out of the box off the factory wiring, correct?

 

[osd9]

Hey Dom-

Those look nice. I can't tell from the pictures, but do the new tachs have integrated hour meters? Also, it appears that the new tachs run out of the box off the factory wiring, correct?

Jeff:

I just got back from a long weekend trip. The tachs performed flawlessly.....they are on the short list of BEST things I bought for the boat. It is SO nice to have tachs that you can depend on.

Yes, they have integrated hour meters. I marked the log book and the tachs what the hours were prior to changing out to the new tachs. It's kind of nice to have zero hours on the boat....like getting a new boat... :grin: ....and yes, the wiring is plug and play...you only have to tie off the back light blue wires and the new tachs are lit internally.....

 

[osd9]

I haven't had a chance to make clean runs at slack tides in two directions to get accurate performance data. I do have some typical numbers that I can post later.

However, I did update my fuel log book and and I am VERY happy to report my fuel burn numbers. Keep in mind, that these are "average" fuel burn numbers, which take into account, idling, slow speed and cruising speeds. Mostly, I run pretty loaded up with fuel, water, dinghy and "Stuff". I just completed a 460 mile run from NJ to Baltimore Inner Harbor, so the average should be pretty accurate. I also ran into some heavy seas for about 2 hours of that cruise, and was throttling up and down to keep the admiral from calling a lawyer.

Anyway, so far this season, I have run 53.6 hours and burned 944 gallons of diesel fuel. That Averages out to 17.6 Gallons per Hour. My best burn (at fill) was a mere 15 Gallons per hour and the highest burn (at fill) was just over 20 Gallons per hour.

I have found that my most comfortable cruise is achieve when running 2350-2375 RPM. Depending on wind, current, seas, etc, that will give me a cruising speed of 21-23.5 knots (24-27 MPH). Also, I have been adding Diesel Kleen to every tank at a ratio somewhere between a 3-6 Cetane boost . My props have been cut to 22 X 22 with light cup as per Prop Scan.

 

[Skip]

Dom,
Those are great numbers, and about 3 GPH less per hour than my average burn on my C series. (20.5 GPH) Our speeds are pretty close--my avg cruise spped is ~23.5-24.5 knots. I am at 93 hours run this season and plan to tally the log book hours/gallons to fill at the end of the season to see how we did. I expect to hit between 150-160 hours this season. I am doing a 3 cetane boost at each fill up, along with the biobor maintenance dose.
Diesels. gotta love 'em.

regards
Skip

 

[osd9]

Skip:

Although you are burning a few extra gallons per hour, you are also going slightly faster. Without having a fuel flow meter on either of our vessels, I would guess that your MPG at cruise would be about the same.

I did do some MPG calcs on my long runs from NJ to BIH and back. Basically I am getting 1 SM per gallon.....almost dead on.