410DA -Seawater backs up thru deck drain causing engine rust

[fwebster]

Here is a valve that should work. It uses a type of duckbill flapper that requires just the weight of the water to function as a check valve. It is Whale Water Systems, part # LV1215B, Non-Returning Valve for 1" or 1-1/2" lines. The barb has 2 steps on it so the same part # fits both sizes. Smaller sized are available for bilge pumps and smaller deck drains. The recommendation is to cut the deck drain line and insert the non-returning valve near the deck drain fitting.

One source for the valve is Boatfix.com and their cost is $15.42 ea.

http://www.gpsvhf.com/bypartnokey.ASP?make=WHALE+WATER+SYSTEMS

 

[osd9]

I have two of the valves that FrankW refered to on order. As a matter of preventative precaution, I will intsall them as recommended. A few more hours of quaity time in the bilge helps to build character...... :grin:

Thanks for the advise........ :thumbsup:


Link to the manufacturer's site http://www.whale.ltd.uk/marine/product_list/9/59/ and a visual of the valve....

 

[tc410]

Here's what I found out on my sea trials today with the starboard access hatch removed:

1. Planed the boat with tabs full down - no water backing up from the deck drain.

2. Planed the boat with tabs full up - no water backing up from the deck drain.

3. Turned port and starboard while planing and after on plane with tabs full up and full down - no water backing up from the deck drain in any scenario. I also raised the full access hatch, port deck drain completly dry also.

However, with the starboard access hatch removed, I was able to find the source of water accumulating on the outboard side of the starboard stringer. Loose hose clamp on the output side of the seawater pump. Mystery solved.

I did confirm that my large deck drain hose has an inline fitting in which the ice bucket drain is spliced. This seems consistent with newer 410's.

I can't seem to simulate the problem of Hail Mary. One other suggestion for a fix to those with the problem would be the scupper attachment in the picture below. It's about $5 and screws into the outside of your through-hull. It has a black rubber flap on it "hinged" on one side. Put the hinge side toward the bow and passing water will keep it shut.

 

[Hail Mary]

Hi All,

Glad to hear that TC410 does not have the sea water back up & rust issue, but I continue my search for other 410DA owners who have similar rust issues on the aft portion of their starboard engine and genny. Sea Ray has been very responsive to my inquiries and even sent me the original drawing of the Starboard Hatch cover. They mentioned that the seal (gasket) on the hatch sits on the outer ridge of the deck drain which prevents any water from entering the ER. However the Starboard hatch seal was not properly installed to account for the 45 degree angle of the outer ridge in front of the deck drain. Therefore, no seal resides at the most critical point and the seawater flows freely over the outer ridge of the deck drain and into the ER right above the aft portion of the Genny and Starboard engine. I've done alot of work here and strongly believe this could be an issue for many more 410DA owners than me. There's too much to type so if you want to see some of my SR correspondence, send me a private post with your direct e-mail or phone number. Best, Sean

 

[tc410]

Sean-

I did notice that the rubber gasket on the bottom of my access panel makes a 90 degree corner and does not account for the 45 degree angle on the cockpit lip. I plan to fix that. Also, I only have gasket material on three of the four sides of the panel. No rubber along the entire length of the panel that rests on the aluminum channel. Can anyone confirm if they are all like that? It appears to have had rubber on it at one time because there is sticky residue along that section. Furthermore, does anyone know where to get rubber material that big to add the length myself? I get a rattle from that access panel and know I think that is why.

 

[Hail Mary]

The Starboard deck hatch seal sould definitely be on all four sides. Seay Ray dealer or home depot should have gasket material. Thanks for confirming that your starboard hatch has the four 90 degree corners SR's technical drawing of the hatch definitely has the seal at a 45 degree angle in front of the drain.

In the end, yours is a fresh water boat so any raw water back up should not rust the engine.

 

[osd9]

Hail Mary:

Do you have any pictures of the rust on your engine and genie that you could post? That would give us/other 410DA owners an idea of what to look for.

later,

 

[Hail Mary]

I do have pictures but cant figure out how to get the JPEG files below the 50KB max for attachments....Any ideas?

Thanks Much

 

[osd9]

I do have pictures but cant figure out how to get the JPEG files below the 50KB max for attachments....Any ideas?

Thanks Much

Yes...use Picturetray.com or other freebee stuff out there.....if you still have troubles, I'll PM you my email address and you can send them to me and I'll post them for you.

 

[osd9]

Here are some pics that Hail Mary sent to me. I'll let him explain...

 

[Asureyez]

zHoley Schitzu that puppy has been leaking Bat Man!

WOW, I see this has been a very long term problem. It would take some time to rust out that pipe into such flaking layers. The motor mounts under the leaking water pump is typical for a pumps wet end seals having gone bad, and probably a secondary problem to your other issue.

Scrub the mount and surrounding area with a wire Brush, soak the area in OSPHO, wash it with fresh water, let dry, prime and paint back good as new.

But there is probably lot of corrosion clean up in store for your sick pup... Better get that OSPHO in the gallon jug size and get a case of touch up spray, you'll need it.

Now I'm gonna go tell my 6'c just how good they got it! :smt038

I do feel your pain, I had a similar situation at purchase that was attributed to leaking shaft log seals that allowed salt water to be flung all over the ER for some time. Elbow grease, OSPHO, Primer and spray paint and some hours at the dock ... and your ER will be like new, don't loose heart.

 

[osd9]

Upon reflection I am not sure that a check valve would work in this case. There needs to be some amount of hydraulic pressure to open the flap in the check valve and there looks like very little vertical distance between the scupper and the through hull discharge..

I just received my new Whale Check valves. I was concerned myself about enough pressure to open the flap. However, these valves don't have a "flap" valve. They have, what I would describe as three triangles, partially open in the direction of the water flow. any water in the valve will flow, and the more pressure, the faster it will flow as the "triangles" will open fully. Any pressure in the opposite direction causes the "triangles" to close tight on to each other and no water flow is permitted.

I tried the valve over the kitchen sink. I poured the smallest amount of water into the valve, with as little pressure as I could, and the water flowed. Then I turned the valve around and poured water in the opposit direction and no water flowed.....seems to work....

I will install them as soon as I can.


As to Hail Mary's pictures....I had the same first impression as Asureyez.....WOW....that didn't happen overnight. BTW...what is OSPHO?????



To Hail Mary:

I have to assume you saw the start of the problem, or at least some where before it got to the stage in your pictures. Why did you wait so long to remedy??????

 

[Hail Mary]

Scrapped and repainted twice over the past five years. Last fix was was 2005 season. It continued to spread and I could never figure out why. Now I know and it's very frustrating to realize that Salt Water has been pouring on my engine for six years!!!.

This rusting issue is a direct result of sea water backing up the deck drain and the starboard hatch seal being improperly installed. These conditions created an unobstructed path for sea water to enter the ER. Who should pay for these repairs?

 

[osd9]

What was Sea Ray's response to you after you contacted them?

 

[fwebster]

It is easy to second guess or arm chair quarterback, but any excessive water in the engine room on a boat with drippless shaft seals should be investigated. From the photos, this wasn't an occasional drip, but quite a bit of water. I would think the excess water and beginning rust was quite apparent before the 2X in 5 year sand and paint.

Where was your dealer in all this? In the Sea Ray system, the dealer has a pivotal role in solving customer problems and in repairing a boat. The factory will almost always help with problems, but it is the dealer who is responsible to you, the owner, for making the repairs and to execute any help the factory provides. What did your dealer do to help you solve the problem?

It took less than a day to come up with a workable solution to a problem that affects some but not all 410DA's.........I just wish the right folks had been involved in this before you sustained the damage in the photos.

 

[Hail Mary]

There was never "Excessive" water in the ER because the water flowed while coming up on plane, so it went to the bottom of the bilge and pumped out by the pump. Only the back up bilge pump has an alarm to signal excessive water in ER and that never went off. As for the Sea Ray Dealer (Surfside Three, now Marine Max), they repeatedly speculated on leaky water pumps or hoses and dismissed the issue as "boats rust". I should have pushed them harder. SR is now responsive because I have identified the cause, but the damage is done & repaired. Poor design & improper installation of hatch seal. Who should foot the bill? SR, Insurance or I?

 

[osd9]

Sean:

Now that you have identified the cause, has Sea Ray acknowledged to you that it is a faulty design and/or installation ?

 

[Hail Mary]

Since I discovered the cause, Sea Ray has been responsive but yet to assume any responsibility.

Most recently, they kindly sent me the mechanical deawing of the Starboard Hatch and explained that the Hatch Seal prevents any sea water back up from entering the ER. I replied that the Hatch Seal was not properly installed and provided photo evidence. I await their reply.

 

[aquadancer]

Sean,

I will not second guess how you handled the problem which clearly took a long time to develop. Sounds like SS3 dismissed your concern without much thought. Leaky pumps are very easy to diagnose - just run the boat and look for water seep or spray.

Could you post a pic of your hatch gasket and SR hatch drawing?

While I have no long-term 410 experience, I have been watching for this issue everytime we ran my new boat and have not been able to replicate it. I will however add check-valve installation to my list.

Sean - thanks for alerting us to this potentially costly issue. Frank - thanks for helping with a solution.

 

[River Rat]

Hail Mary:
I was unable to get water to enter the cockpit drain, tried both sides with small amounts of turn during acc. I did not pay any attn. to the rubber seal. I will remove the cover and let you know what I find. It will be a couple weeks before I will see the boat, as I will be out of town.
As far as the pics. just like everyone else WOW!