420/44 DB Owners Club

Carver370,

I have no doubts that they will cool the space. My question is more in regards to these units being on a boat. The picture you posted looks ok and I think the fact that this is on a Aft Cabin makes it a little easier (there's much more room). If these stand alone units were a lot smaller and powerfull enough too cool my bridge, then I would seriously consider. I know it's a big debate regarding speding thosuands of dollars on built-in unit vs. $50 for electrical heater (which BTW I've used and it does an awsome job) and $500-$600 electrical A/C unit. But, at this time I don't feel like spending $500 and try to fit one of those in and then later realize that it looks redicules and not practical during rough conditions. Also, I don't want to make a tiniest hole in my EZ2CY enclosure, never mind 4" hole.
 
bmac said:
Do you guys have pictures of your set up? Where did you get buckets bigger than the standard 5 gallons? Did you use a threaded fitting into the bucket?
Click to expand...

Brian, here's the picture of mine:

antifreeze_bucket.jpg

Steve,

I got to tell you that after our discussion about the sea strainers adapters and seeing your picture it gave me an idea to come up with option #3 on how easily control the winterizing the mains. First I created this 3" adapter that replaces the seastrainer cap and I connect the garden hose to it.

seastrainer_adapter.jpg

I figured that this is much better method instead of just sticking the hose in to the strainer. So, my goal was to find the method where I would be able to control the engine and the antifreeze feed at the same time with a "click of a button". My solution was to connect my 110v water pump to the bucket with pink and feed the pink by turning the pump ON/OFF (just like I do the A/C systems). This way I have full control when the pink is supplied. The next thing I did was to run the power cord from my 110v pump to the bridge 110v outlet. Now I have 100% control over the pump and the engine under my finger tips.

So, all I did was asking my wife to go down and monitor the exhaust while I turned the the 110v pump to feed the pink and fired an engine at the same time. As soon as my wife gave me the signal that we have clear pink coming out of the exhaust, all I did was turn the engine and unplugged the 110v pump to stop the pink feed. It worked like a charm. BTW, I never saw a drop of exhaust coming out of the sides, everything was exiting via underwater exhaust. So, I'm a bit puzzled how Brian was able to do this having his wife observing the pink or anything for that matter coming out of exhaust. Maybe my exhaust system is different, but I had no way of seeing a single drop from the bridge since everything was coming out under the boat.
 
Alex
I'm confused...are you pushing pink into the engine under pressure created by the 110v pump? If so, why would you do that? Wouldn't the raw water pumps pull through the pink as needed? Are diesel engines not subject to ingestion?

It also seems that you are constricting the flow down to about 1/2" right at the adapter you fabricated. This constricture will certainly amplify the pressure at points past the adapter.
 
Quick question, are you screwing the 3" MNPT adapter directly into the top of the strainer? If I remove my cap(top) I don't have threads. What am I missing here? A Sea Ray mechanic said I can just open the top and stick a 5/8" garden hose attach to a bucket full of pink to flush the mains and genset. Thought?
 
Good questions, Ron. Your understanding is correct. It may sound wierd, but here are my reasons for doing so:

1. Location of the bucket - I placed the puket in the cockpit to a spot where I can monitor it from the bridge. This way I could conform that when the engines are running the antifreeze being used and if I run out of it I would stop the engines.
2. The flow strength - due to the fact that I placed the bucket all the way to the stern in the cockpit this made my garden hose run about 20' by the time it reached the sea strainer (my strainers are right by the bullkhead, almost in the middle of the boat's length). So, considering that garden hose is long and it dropped to the floor at some points I knew 100% that this will create lose of good flow of the pink.
3. The control - which was the primary driver for the setup. I know that by adding the electrical pump will allow me to control the flow by turning the pump ON/OFF. I simply didn't like the idea of running down the stairs to shut the valve. I don't mind spending little extra time and add necessary components to make my job easy in the and.

In general, I didn't do anything much different other that reproduced a flushing system for the engines. The biggest clue for my design was that when I flush the engines prior running the antifreeze thru them I use city water supply, which has some good pressure. I just make sure that I turn ON/OFF engines and water at the same time and there's no delay there. So,if I can successfully flush the engines with city water pressure, then I have no problem with creating similar flow by adding the pump to supply the pink.

Hope it makes sense.
 
You are not seeing water in the exhaust because you are not putting enough cooling water in the system with the little pump to reach the by-pass point for the side exhausts. With that system I hope you started with cool engines because you would create hot spots with prolonged idling, not to mention impeller wear, with your apparatus. Generally, full flow from a 3/4" hose hooked to a city water supply barely cools a 454 Merc and won't even come close to flowing enough water for a diesel engine.

I don't winterize, but I think I could make a case for removing the impellers and the sea water outlet hose and then use your pump system to fill the sea water side of the cooling system. That way you know when it is full of antifreeze because it is going to get on your feet when the system is full and you don't run any risk of engine or pump damage.
 
CAMELLA said:
Quick question, are you screwing the 3" MNPT adapter directly into the top of the strainer? If I remove my cap(top) I don't have threads. What am I missing here? A Sea Ray mechanic said I can just open the top and stick a 5/8" garden hose attach to a bucket full of pink to flush the mains and genset. Thought?
Click to expand...

Jon,

The answer is yes, I screw the adapter in to the strainer. It sounds like you have the same type (with wingnuts) of strainers I had on my 320DA. Your mechanic is right. I was doing it the same way, just stick the hose in the strainer, but make sure it stays there and doesn't pop out during the operation. BTW, there are special caps with garden hose attachemnt for your strainers as well. Google it and you should fine some. I'll check if I have some links.
 
Alex

Are you running pink through the engines while the boat's out of the water?
 
fwebster said:
You are not seeing water in the exhaust because you are not putting enough cooling water in the system with the little pump to reach the by-pass point for the side exhausts. With that system I hope you started with cool engines because you would create hot spots with prolonged idling, not to mention impeller wear, with your apparatus. Generally, full flow from a 3/4" hose hooked to a city water supply barely cools a 454 Merc and won't even come close to flowing enough water for a diesel engine.....
Click to expand...

Frank,

I'm a bit puzzled and concerned. Before we call my gizmo a POS let me understand the city water issue. If you're stating that city water pressure doesn't provide enough water to cool the diesel engines (while the seastrainer is closed), then what's the solution on flushing the engines if there's nothing I have on hand other than the city water supply? I don't like the solution of removing the impeller and/or disconnecting sea water outlet. One of the goals is fill the muflers with antifreeze.

Talking about flushing system, I had a thought on adding it to my 420, but I knew that diesel's cooling is different than gas engines and it's not so much of an issue. However, I read number of post on diesel site where folks claimed that having flushing system prolongs the life of the system and they can see it during the service of items like aftercoolers and heat exchangers. After reading this I'm not rulling out the idea of adding the flushing system to my boat. Since I'm on a river I'm in more of fresh/brackish water, which helps a lot and gives me extra time to debate if I need something like that. Anyway, my point is that every one of those folks that added flushing system to their diesel boats, all they have at the dock is the shore city water supply, and I can guaranty you that all they do is close the seacock and run the engines with whatever city water pressure supplies. They don't take any components out, it's just not feasable on a regular sunday night when your whole family is ready to head home and you have limited time to do your stuff.

You made interesting point on the engines TEMP. I think that my timing was good. I idled in the slip for 15min, then idled to the lift where the boat was hauled out. the boat was presure washed and then blocked. The process took anywhere around 1.5hrs. Then I was allowed back on the boat. So, by the time I proceeded to flush/winterize the engines they were rested for good 2+hrs and they were just warm to begin with. I'll keep your point in mind for the future, but if you could provide a little more details on what could be the issue with an engine being hot that would be great.

BTW, I'm 100% positive that if you let a marina do the engines winterizing job, flushing the enegines is not on their to-do list.
 
Alex,

Very nice set-up....... I did something similiar with a spackle bucket and a bildge pump. I mounted the bildge pump in the spackle bucket and set up a fitting to connect a garden hose. I added a 2nd fitting with a return hose that dumps the water back into the bucket. What I use this for is to clean the raw water side of the engine. Basically I create a circulating loop connecting to the exhaust hose outlet and thru one of the engine anode fittings. I buy a product called "Barnacle Buster" I shut the main inlet valve off and after all connected, add fresh water into the bucket and circulate thru the engine. Once the flow is continuous with clean fresh water (I will dump the bucket 1 or 2 times) returning back into the bucket, I then add a gallon of barnacle buster. This circulates thru the engine including the heat exchanger and aftercooler. I let it circulate for about an hour. It does a great job cleaning the raw water system. You could easily use your set up for the same purpose. Nice job!
 
bmac said:
Alex

Are you running pink through the engines while the boat's out of the water?
Click to expand...

Brian, are you joking with me buddy :grin:? Maybe you store in water, but I always stored on land. So, in this case obviously it wouldn't make any sense for me to winterize the engines when the boat is still in water. I still have to drive it to the lift to be hauled out. Anyway, yes. I allways run my engines on land.

This year I winterized pretty much everything except the mains by the time she was hauled out. I liked it very much, b/c we were able to mix work with pleasure of using what was left from the season. Next year I'll try to do even more while the boat is still in water.
 
Last edited:
Alex
I used to flush my 7.4s with a garden hose and the amt of water coming overboard is no where near the amount when the pump draws seawater - it is easy for me to tell b/c I do not have underwater exhausts. Part of the problem with using garden hose is the aperture of the valve.

Take a good look at that shutoff fitting you have on the device you attach to your strainer. I'll bet it's MAYBE 3/8" in diameter. There's no way your motor is going to be happy with that miniscule amount of flow. Yes, you'll get pink in there ultimately but it's going to take a while. Someone earlier in this thread developed a system where he used large diameter PVC fittings and corrugated hose that appeared to be at least 1 1/4" in diameter. I was very impressed with it b/c it provides enough water or pink to fill the system and get it out the other end quickly and with very little "starvation." I think your system is a good start but I'd try to use all larger diameter fittings and hoses. You ain't running a 320 with small blocks anymore my friend!

I no longer flush out the raw water side each week. After 7 years in, my exhuast elbows were in very good condition. It made me realize that the fresher nature of the water in my marina did a good job of flushing without any help from me and the potential disaster of ingestion. The water where you are is very similar to my place so you just need to focus on the winterization process.
 
Below is a post of mine from 2007. I don't know the lay of the bilge in the 42/44DB, but have you considered crash valves?

I just finished making up my flushing and winterizing setup for my CAT Diesels and I thought I would share it here.

The CATs have 2" water supply lines and the previous owner (Sea Gull) gave me a good head start by installing a brass "T" in line with the supply hose. Off the "T" is a reducing bushing from 2" to 1.25" . Off that bushing is a 1.25" brass close nipple to a brass 1.25" ball valve and then to another brass 1.25" close nipple. Off that nipple is a plastic 1.25" elbow and 4" plastic extension. I went with plastic elbow and extension off of the last nipple at the advise of others, especially Frank W. in order to keep the wieght and "moment" to a minimum that was hanging on the first nipple off of the "T".

In this configuration, the setup works as a "crash Valve" or "Dewatering valve". If you spring a leak, you open the crash valve, close the seacock, and use the engines to suck out the water from bilge, hopefully giving you enough time to get back to safe harbor....you know....a "water let'r out'r"

Here is what that setup looks like.

PB170667.jpg


In these next few pictures, I removed the elbow and 4" estension and put a plastic 1.25" union in there place. I also added my bucket setup so that I can either flush the mains with fresh water or run antifreeze through the mains for winterization.

PB170668.jpg



PB170669.jpg


PB170670.jpg

The bucket is simply a rubber maid bucket with an 1.5" through hull to a 1.5" union to a 1.5" nipple to an 1.5" ball valve which is then reduced to a 1.25" hose adapter. The hose is 1.2" I.D. pond hose. A little ghetto, but it works....​
 
Alex F said:
Frank,

I'm a bit puzzled and concerned. Before we call my gizmo a POS let me understand the city water issue. If you're stating that city water pressure doesn't provide enough water to cool the diesel engines (while the seastrainer is closed), then what's the solution on flushing the engines if there's nothing I have on hand other than the city water supply? I don't like the solution of removing the impeller and/or disconnecting sea water outlet. One of the goals is fill the muflers with antifreeze.

Talking about flushing system, I had a thought on adding it to my 420, but I knew that diesel's cooling is different than gas engines and it's not so much of an issue. However, I read number of post on diesel site where folks claimed that having flushing system prolongs the life of the system and they can see it during the service of items like aftercoolers and heat exchangers. After reading this I'm not rulling out the idea of adding the flushing system to my boat. Since I'm on a river I'm in more of fresh/brackish water, which helps a lot and gives me extra time to debate if I need something like that. Anyway, my point is that every one of those folks that added flushing system to their diesel boats, all they have at the dock is the shore city water supply, and I can guaranty you that all they do is close the seacock and run the engines with whatever city water pressure supplies. They don't take any components out, it's just not feasable on a regular sunday night when your whole family is ready to head home and you have limited time to do your stuff.

You made interesting point on the engines TEMP. I think that my timing was good. I idled in the slip for 15min, then idled to the lift where the boat was hauled out. the boat was presure washed and then blocked. The process took anywhere around 1.5hrs. Then I was allowed back on the boat. So, by the time I proceeded to flush/winterize the engines they were rested for good 2+hrs and they were just warm to begin with. I'll keep your point in mind for the future, but if you could provide a little more details on what could be the issue with an engine being hot that would be great.

BTW, I'm 100% positive that if you let a marina do the engines winterizing job, flushing the enegines is not on their to-do list.
Click to expand...




Alex:

1. Dominic answered the "How do I get enough flow?" question quite elegantly with his post #334, so I won't waste time on that.

2. You may not like the idea of removing the impeller or disconnecting hoses, but sooner or later you will get a wake up call on leaving impellers in a pump housing over an extended period. Here is the text of Sherwood's recommended lay up procedure:

Sherwood recommends replacing your impeller annually.Proper storageof the impellersduring a prolonged lay-up can help maintain the life of the impeller.
Remove the impeller from the housing and store it in a cool, dark place.This will avoid the following:

•Copper bonding of the impeller to the housing
•Vanes “setting”into position as stored in the housing
•Ultraviolet deterioration

Three tips to help you install your new Sherwood impeller:

•Use a non-petroleum based lubricant (silicon or soapy water) to help slide the impeller into the housing.
•Install the impeller with a twisting motion onto the shaft.Never force an impeller onto the shaft.
•Impeller must be able to move freely on the shaft to properly prime and function.

(Use a small amount of non-petroleum based lubricant to help hold the o-ring when replacing the cover.)
*See Maintenance Schedule
Genuine Sherwood TechTips

You will find this on Sherwood's webite under references; 17000 Tech Guide

I had this happen last summer........My wife and I got summer colds from hell on the way to the boat one trip down. We stayed inside for 3-4 days, then got caught up in a tropical storm. We didn't get to use the boat at all that trip. Then a month later, we went back and found no water flow from either engine. The impellers had only one blade left on each one and the remains were in the heat exchangers and stuck to the water pump housing. This was after 6 weeks of inactivity........not a full winter lay-up. Take 'em out; leave 'em in? Doesn't matter to me. Just be prepared to stop the launching process while you replace impellers and fish the old vanes out of you coolers some year when, you least expect or want to fool with it.

3. More details with an engine being hot?..........how about cooked/burned gaskets between the castings, cracked manifolds elbows and heads, blown head gaskets, burned rubber exhaust hoses, etc, etc. There are just so many ways to spend money repairing a diesel engine that has gotten hot and it is such a scary thought that I would put it pretty near the top of the list of risky things to do to a boat. My advice is to find a way that provides adequate cooling flow if you are going to run the engines with the boat out of the water.
 
I think the confusion is thinking pressure = volume. The engines don't need a lot of pressure to pump the water to the impeller. It just needs a lot of volume.
 
Mike, I think you hit the nail on the head. I thought that by adding pressure I can compensate for the lack of volume. I guess it doesn't work that way.
 
DEFINITELY won't work! You don't need a pump. If the diameter is adequate, the pump will draw what it needs out of the container.
 
Ah!!!!! Everone was knocking Steve's large 20 gallon pail with large dia. hose for flushing and winterizing(except for Ron).
Alex, read my post # 291 again about fill the pail with water and then putting a garden hose in it to flush
 
This is great! During our discussion I've learned that even though all of my steps seamed to work, but the components I had used require slight modification due to the engines size/power difference compare to my previous gas boats. Thank you guys for raising your voices and pointing out what didn't look right to you.

Even though I have good deal of experience with winterizing process, this is the first time I'm doing it on the diesel boat. I realized that the garden hose is not adequate size for my engines, but I know that the gizmo I constructed turned out to be not perfect for these engines but provided enough pink to winterize them. I know that I did zero harm to the engines and even if the amount of pink running thru them was slightly less, they were still getting decent amount of pink and the pumps weren't running dry. Considering the fact that an engine runs for about 30-60 seconds, I consider that it's no big deal and all my gizmo needs a slight improvement.

However, I'm still kind of puzzled what would be the best way to flush the engines if the city water via garden hose doesn't provide enough volume? Even if I won't build the flushing system I'd like to flush my engines before I add the antifreeze, but I want use much more water than would fit in a bucket.
 
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