500 Sundancers

[Scott Sutton]

Hello, this is my first post. I’m looking at a 1996 and a 1997 500 Sundancer this weekend. The 96 has 620 hours on Cat 3176 TA’s, needs new canvas and a thorough cleaning but overall looks decent. This boat was purchased from a liquidator by an individual and has been out of the water for one full season and is still sitting on blocks.

The 97 has 825 hours on Cat 3176C’s, looks much cleaner, 2 owners, recent major service, new turbos, and is currently in the water. I’m taking a look at the 97 this weekend.

What problem areas should I focus on with these vessels? Opinions on these engines would be appreciated. Any hull integrity issues should I beware of? What would be some good questions for the current owner?

Thanks

 

[Scott Sutton]

So as I do more research on this site which, by the way, has a wealth of information, fosters even more questions. Does the 500 Sundancer have a solid bottom or is it cored? What parts of the hull should I be most concerned about regarding wet stringers, decking, transom? Which areas/parts of the model are most problematic? I’ve learned and accepted that a boat this age wil not be close to perfect and will probably have some moisture issues. I’m willing to put in the work and money within reason but I must avoid a time bomb .

 

[Stee6043]

The whole coring vs solid question is rarely answered in a clear way (I feel). I believe...mostly from reading around this site....that any Sea Rays that came from the Merritt Island facility will not have coring below the water line.

The serial # will start SERF if it was a Merritt Island boat.

Wet decks are somewhat common. Near the windshield and windlass. But dry boats are out there of this vintage. I know since I just bought one last year!

I'd personally focus more on those motors. Be sure to get a pro to look at them. Repairing a wet foredeck will be a fraction of the cost of replacing a diesel engine. That 97 with recent engine service sounds like a much better buy but you'd surely need both a hull survey and an engine survey (two different types of professionals).

 

[JVM225]

Both would need hull and engine surveys.
Just from what you posted though, if I had to choose one to spend the money for surveys on it would be the 1997 with more hours on it. At 860 hours those motors are barely broken in and the maintenance history sounds encouraging. Sounds like a boat that’s ready to start enjoying.
The 96 from the liquidator that is sitting on blocks makes me nervous.
While it could be a fantastic boat, I would be wondering how it wound up with a liquidator and if the previous owner kept current in maintenance.

BTW: Post your location.

 

[Scott Sutton]

The whole coring vs solid question is rarely answered in a clear way (I feel). I believe...mostly from reading around this site....that any Sea Rays that came from the Merritt Island facility will not have coring below the water line.

The serial # will start SERF if it was a Merritt Island boat.

Wet decks are somewhat common. Near the windshield and windlass. But dry boats are out there of this vintage. I know since I just bought one last year!

I'd personally focus more on those motors. Be sure to get a pro to look at them. Repairing a wet foredeck will be a fraction of the cost of replacing a diesel engine. That 97 with recent engine service sounds like a much better buy but you'd surely need both a hull survey and an engine survey (two different types of professionals).

Stee6043, thanks for the information. The 1997 500 Sundancer's HIN starts with "SERY." Does this possibly change how the hull was manufactured?

 

[Stee6043]

Stee6043, thanks for the information. The 1997 500 Sundancer's HIN starts with "SERY." Does this possibly change how the hull was manufactured?

I found the list below previously posted on CSR. Unfortunately, anytime I've searched for info on coring I only get hits regarding SERT and SERF. Sorry!

When shopping for boats in this age range I tend to think the worst is behind them. If you get a survey and she's dry - does having a cored hull matter? Take good care of her and she'll run for ever....and your value will only go up from here since Sea Ray has stopped building 40'+! Perhaps wishful thinking on the value part

SER (T) - Knoxville Plant - Tennessee
SER (R) - Riverview Plant - Tennessee
SER (V) - Tellico Plant - Tennessee
SER (M) - Oxford Plant - Michigan
SER (A) - Phoenix Plant - Arizona
SER (P) - Palm Coast Plant - Florida
SER (F) - Merritt Island Plant - Florida
SER (Y) - Sykes Creek Plant - Florida
SER (E) - Cork Ireland Plant - Cork Ireland
SER (C) - Cherokee Cove Plant (Now Mastercraft, across from Tellico plant). - Tennessee
SER (VB) - Bucyrus Plant - Ohio
SER (RB) - Bucyrus Plant - Ohio
SER (S) - Fort Mill Plant - South Carolina

 

[JVM225]

You could try calling Sea Ray Customer Service and they will tell you. They’re usually pretty helpful. Don’t have the number handy but you can probably search it out here.

 

[markhpc]

Hi Scott,

I'm a newbie as well. I've spent some time looking at the structures of a number of 36-40ft das/ecs over the past several months and talked to some of the sea ray engineers a couple of times on the phone so I thought I would comment. I've got a thread here on the newbie forum with tons of excellent thoughts/advice from more experienced folks which might interest you as well.

First, you might want to check out David Pascoe's site if you haven't already. He isn't everyone's favorite surveyor as he could be pretty grumpy and negative, but he did specifically look at a couple of 500 sundancers from this era:

https://www.yachtsurvey.com/boatreviews/sea_ray_500.htm

And really he was pretty positive about them compared to many of his reviews! He points out a couple of potential problem areas to look for so those are maybe things you'd want to focus on.

In terms of what I've seen on the smaller dancers from the 90s and early 2000s in my search: Nearly every boat (and every Sea Ray!) I've looked at has had elevated moisture somewhere. On Sea Rays specifically: various amounts of elevated moisture radiating out from the windlass through the deck coring has been a repeating theme. Sometimes I also saw elevated moisture and/or softness around hatches (See skipharmer's thread on repairing that here: http://www.clubsearay.com/index.php?threads/soft-deck-what-would-you-do.89301/). Sometimes a bit of moisture in the deck around the stanchions. Overall I'd say the decks were actually in better shape on the Sea Rays than some other brands I've looked at (Older carvers seemed to really suffer from very wet side decks and bow and wellcraft portofinos all seemed to be pretty wet on the sides perhaps from stanchion leaks).

The bigger concern for me was the moisture content my meter was reporting in the bulkheads/stringers/transom on the Sea Rays I looked at. Some boats were worse than others. One boat had a bulkhead that felt like it was nearly hollow after moisture readings and taping with my metal flashlight. Another was perfect on the port side but had elevated moisture in the first starboard stringer from the engine all the way back to the transom and then showed elevated moisture in the transom radiating out near where that stringer attached. There is a limber hole through that stringer back near the transom that I went back and inspected. I suspect it wasn't sealed well and water was able to get in. Surprisingly an older EC390 checked out a little drier than many of the others, but had an issue where the owner hit the dock near a through-hull fitting and appeared to have some related crazing and moisture issues around that spot.

FWIW, Elevated moisture doesn't strictly mean rot. I talked to Sea Ray and they did say that at least in the early 2000 models they used marine grade plywood for the stringers. It definitely means you want a good surveyor to check out anything you are considering buying from this era though. I can almost guarantee you that you'll find elevated moisture somewhere on both of those boats and you'll want to know how much and how likely it is to cause problems.

For me personally, I'm looking a lot more closely now at the mid 2000 models where they switched to using their "hatman" fiberglass stringer system. Unfortunately we have far fewer of these in my area and they command a hefty premium over the late 90s and early 2000 models so it's not clear it's worth the extra expense. I'm still hoping I can find a very dry early 2000s 410 as that model is pretty much perfect for us.

Mark

 

[fwebster]

SERY is a boat produced by the yacht factory in Sykes Creek FL., so it is probably a cored hull boat. If there is a factory in the SR system that can produce a good cored boat, it is Sykes Creek.

Every Sea Ray has a cored deck and your exposure to rotted coring is much worse from the decks than the hull. The reason is that there are far more places water can get into the core on the deck than the hull: Windshield, windlass, stanchions, cleats, bow rails, etc.

On a Sea Ray hull, there are only 2 ways way moisture usually gets into the hull structure: 1) physical damage and a repair process that doesn't fully remove and dry the coring before sealing up the damaged place with glass, resin and gelcoat.
2) someone mounts or installs something in the hull in an improper location or with poor bedding or sealing. The usual cause is a transducer mounted somewhere other than the solid portion of the hull.......Sea Ray build the cored hulls with a solid pad in the areas the thru hulls and transducers are placed, 3m-5200 is the preferred sealant for holes below the waterline. The other frequent source for water ingress into a cored hull is docking lights added by the dealer after the boat leaves the factory.

However, on this particular boat, with 3176 engines, there is a larger concern: There have been more than one 500DA that was quickly resold after a new buyer found that the boat was significantly under powered. Please DO NOT BUY this boat without doing a sea trial with the normal loading you anticipate having onboard. Seawater weighs 8.6 lb /gal; diesel fuel weighs 7.2 lbs gal, so estimate the weight needed to fill partially full water, fuel and waste tanks and put that many people on the boat for the sea trial.

Frank

 

[markhpc]

On a Sea Ray hull, there are only 2 ways way moisture usually gets into the hull structure: 1) physical damage and a repair process that doesn't fully remove and dry the coring before sealing up the damaged place with glass, resin and gelcoat.
2) someone mounts or installs something in the hull in an improper location or with poor bedding or sealing. The usual cause is a transducer mounted somewhere other than the solid portion of the hull.......Sea Ray build the cored hulls with a solid pad in the areas the thru hulls and transducers are placed, 3m-5200 is the preferred sealant for holes below the waterline. The other frequent source for water ingress into a cored hull is docking lights added by the dealer after the boat leaves the factory.

Frank

Hi Frank,

Do you have any strong views on the trade-offs of the cored vs non-cored (bottom?) Sea Ray Hulls? I'm very much in the solid bottom camp, but I know some folks think it's overkill. Also, any opinions on the newer hatman stringers? I believe the transom and bulkheads are still wood, but one of the engineers I talked to made it sound like they should stay drier given the way the hatman stringers are glassed in.

 

[fwebster]

I've owned over 40ft Sea Rays since 1989. My boats have been kept in the water on the Gulf coast 24/7/about 363 days a year.....I haul out every year in Feb for maintenance and just checking the bottom and hardware. My slip is at the local Sea Ray dealer. I also have a good relationship with them and run some boats for them when the schedule fits.

In 30+ years, I have seen only one hull bottom that was wet and it was in a 40ft Sedan Bridge with a solid bottom. The cause was a simple delimitation. The repair was about 18" X 4' right between the stringers and was repaired by our fiberglass guy in Panama City Beach. The only core problems I've seen repaired in the period of time were due to bad repairs by the boat owner or deck areas that we not properly maintained by rebidding when needed.

You said strong view? Yes, at some point, if you move up in size you will have to own a cored hull boat. Every Sea Ray from 45' up is cored. Furthermore, I think too much is made of cored hull risk. You actually have more risk with decks than hulls because every Sea Ray from about 24 ft up has cored decks and very few owners ever think about rebedding things like windlasses, rail stanchions, windshield attachment screws, cleats, bow rails, hatches, port lights, etc. and all of them can leak into a cored area.

The Pascoe criticisms of Sea Ray generally stem from older boats, but enough was written that I decided to look into it on the Sea Ray side of things since I own a 450DA, which is a fully cored hull boat. I also happen to know several of the Customer Service and Manufacturing managers at Sea Ray. At one Yacht Expo I saw several Customer Service people from Sea Ray so I just asked, "What problems are you having with cored hulls" They uniformly agreed that the only issues they have handled were where the boat had been abused, had sustained physical damage or had been subjected to incorrect mounting of transducers, seacocks, spotlights, docking lights etc. One of them asked if I owned a Sea Ray.....I said yes, I own a 1996 450DA. 2 guys reached out to shake my hand and said, Great! We call that hull (used on the 450D and 450EB) our 'Ice Breaker Hull'. We have never had a hull warranty claim on that hull. Don't ever sell it." I'm not interested in trading up because my boat is economical, efficient, roomy and fits my family's needs perfectly, but If I were, I'd be looking for a 60DA or a 610DA, both of which are cored hull boats.

I think you can analyze the hell out of cored construction to the point that you never buy a boat. Truthfully, the answer lies in doing your due diligence and getting a level of comfort with the condition of the boat you are interested in.


Frank

 

[markhpc]

Thanks for the info Frank! I was mostly just curious since afaik the 410das are (almost?) all solid bottoms. Indeed I've also heard the larger models are cored. I would think that so long as the fiberglass is thick enough and there is sufficient glass around the through-hull fittings it would typically work out reasonably well (at least so long as the captain isn't drunkenly running into things).

Any opinions on the newer fiberglass stringers? I haven't seen much discussion about them here other than a couple of mentions that the newer boats have them.

 

[fwebster]

If the new type stringers are installed in the hull correctly, then they do have the benefit of make the stringers wood free. There have been. number of boats, however that the hollow stringers have gotten water inside the hollow stringer. There can be no rot since there is no wood, but there can be an odor problem and so far, the only fix from Sea Ray has been to cut an inspection hole in the top of the stringer and vacuum the water out.

My search for a different model Sea Ray would end at about 2010-2012 model years for this and other reasons.