7.5Kw Quicksilver Genny Problem

Discussion in 'Electrical Stuff' started by MarkD, Aug 17, 2009.

  1. PlayDate

    PlayDate Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Washington DC
    1994 370 Express Cruiser
    454 Mercruisers
    Ron, it looks like you have earned your Quicksilver merit badge.

    Mark, how comfortable are you working around high voltage?
    I'm asking because working the high voltage circuit can be extremely dangerous.

    -John
     
  2. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    Hi John,
    Thanks for getting back to me. I am fairly comfortable with that...and can usually folllow directions well. By high voltage are you referring to the capacitor??? From reading old postings, I thought the capacitor was not present in my year? I obviously could have read wrong.... I am assuming we are now past the governer being the culprit and on to items that supply or deal with voltage to the panel....

    I was also doing some reading on prior generator posts. You had mentioned a few things about what might have been wrong, including voltage regulator and/or the Control board. What is the procedure to test each and rule each out? I could also purchase one or the other (if thats whats required)

    You also mentioned that you had detailed wiring diagrams for the 7.5kw genny. Is it possible to send them along....

    I really appreciate all the help so far!!
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2009
  3. PlayDate

    PlayDate Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Washington DC
    1994 370 Express Cruiser
    454 Mercruisers
    Mark,

    I'm in the UK this week and will be back on the weekend. I can probably walk you through a few tests then and send you the wiring diagrams if another CSR member has not done so.

    You are rapidly approaching the point of "parts replacement" to resolve the problem. When you consider how a generator works, there are only a few components that can stop in from creating electricity. Most are difficult to test and easier to replace. In your operators manual there is an impedence test of the stator. It would be very helpful if you could do this test so that we can eliminate a catastrophic problem (catastrophic problem is defined as requiring the unit to be replaced).

    My definition of high voltage is anything over 12 volts. I get really concerned about 110volts and owners who don't understand how it can hurt them. The stator test will tell us if you have a major problem.

    -John
     
  4. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    John...
    I will look at the manual and see if I am able to test the impedance on that stator. May have some time over the weekend. Keeps me out of my wifes hair! As far as the detailed diagrams, no one has sent them over to me. Was hoping you might be kind enough to do that. Understood about the voltage and what that entails. I was thinking more along the lines of the capacitor and getting zapped. Ouch!

    Will let you know what I find. Thanks!

    Have a great time in the UK. Hope you get a few sunny days and can do some sightseeing.
     
  5. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    John,
    Well I read thru the Operations and Maintenance Manual, the 8 part service & troubleshooting manual (I have parts 2-8 but was missing section 1), heck even the parts catalog, and no where does it say how to test the stator's impedance. Diagrams are abundant but not how to test that piece. Maybe i missed something?
     
  6. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    Well, its almost a full year later and I have not used the boat much. In fact, the genny hadnt been de-winterized until this weekend. Here is an update...

    1) I finally got around to replacing the genny's control board (sent away from advanced service and parts) and installed the circuit board as per the instructions. The only caviat I saw, although the new circuit board seemed exact, the original board came with what i will call a "daughterboard" which was NOT included with the new kit. Again this is a small circuit board with a few wires and (diodes ??) which mounted onto and in front of the old board. I re-installed that piece onto the new one.
    2) After the installation, the directions mentioned to turn the "overspeed shutdown potentiometer" all the way to the counter-clockwise position prior to starting. I did that.
    3) Tried to start the genny... crank, crank, crank.... no good. I decided to open the cowling that exposes the carb, and poured down some fuel into the carb and retried it from the genny's start switch. It quickly started and died. I kept doing this for a few times until I the carb seemed to be primed and would start from the electrical main panel in the cabin as normal.
    4) After each successful start, the engine would immediately shut down after 2-3 seconds. It would start up immediately each successive time and just die again. I also turned that overspeed shutdown potentiometer clockwise to a few different positions to eliminate that. No help, in fact, it seemed to shut down quicker when turned clockwise. So I just set it back all the way to counter-clockwise position.

    Just as a check, I decided to flip the mains on the genny to on and try to start... I knew it wouldnt stay running. When it kicked over, the electric still showed low voltage. Not sure if that was a valid test, as I was trying to kill 2 birds with 1 stone so to speak.

    Any assistance would be a great help.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2010
  7. rondds

    rondds Well-Known Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    Jersey Shore
    2001 380DA
    Merc 8.1s (2008)...Hurth ZF 63 V-drives...WB 7.0 BCGD (2013), Garmin 8208 & 740 MFDs, GMR 24xHD dome
  8. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    Thanks for those links Ron. My issue sounds similar. The only think I have changed so far is that control board, so logic would dictate if I put it back, it should start and continue to run, no? I swear I have heard so many opinions my head is woozie! LOL.
     
  9. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    I decided to pull wire labeled #85 prior to replacing the control board with the old one. As people have told me, this is the wire that has the 3 remote sensors attached to it.. oil pressure, temp for coolant & exhaust temp I believe. It had no effect. Same condition as before. I ended up putting back old board and tried to restart... same issue, would start then stall after 3 seconds. Held starter toggle switch all the way in and the motor would keep running. Hmm.. I decided to pull #85 again and what do you know... the genny ran!!! I still have no panel voltage though. So it appears that I now have 2 problem.

    1) Either one of the remote sensors is faulty or the "daughter board" that wire #85 connects to is bad. FWIW, the oil is full, the coolant is perfect and I am unclear how high exhaust temp could have caused it since exhaust is certainly cool before starting!

    2) The electrical panel voltage is still low. Voltage Regulator could be the next culprit?

    Any suggestions would be helpful.
     
  10. rondds

    rondds Well-Known Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    Jersey Shore
    2001 380DA
    Merc 8.1s (2008)...Hurth ZF 63 V-drives...WB 7.0 BCGD (2013), Garmin 8208 & 740 MFDs, GMR 24xHD dome
    Hey Mark
    Sitting here in Beach Haven with Eric and Susan!

    Back to the topic - what if you held down the toggle and check the voltage on the panel meter. Bad starter switch?
     
  11. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    Ron,
    Not sure I have enough hands to do that and check.

    Regardless, I spoke to "parts for techs" and a guy named Dennis. What I great guy. He told me to check a few things for him first. He said there should be 12V DC while cranking between terminal #0 and terminal #4. I think he meant wire 0 (which is terminal #2), he didnt have manual handy and was going from memory. That would make sense. If there is no voltage across these, it is likely that the choke module could be bad. This is part # 73601 from Generac.

    I mentioned that I replaced that control board and also told him about that daughterboard that sat in front of the main control board. ( I will try to post a picture) In the old Quicksilver manual parts book, I saw something similar, but that part looked like the choke module. According to the exploded diagram, this was supposed to sit behind the control board not in front of it. Hmm... Maybe its the same piece?

    If not, the next step could be to replace the voltage regulator. This is only $155. Only! sheesh! who am I kidding. Dennis mentioned he would take back my circuit board as well with a restock fee. That is actually very nice since it really is discressionary according to their policy.

    I also have to hunt down why wire #85 is causing the shutdown. I am convinced I have 2 issues here. I re-read the manuals and it looks like the oil, coolant and exhaust temp sensors are in line like a serial connection... if any goes down, the circuit grounds itself and shuts the genny down.

    more to come...I think I am going up to the boat tomorrow to do some testing. anything else you can think of?
     
  12. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    heres some photos.... notice that wire #85 is not attached. This is the shutdown sensor wire and goes from terminal 12, to this card....
     

    Attached Files:

  13. rondds

    rondds Well-Known Member

    Oct 3, 2006
    Jersey Shore
    2001 380DA
    Merc 8.1s (2008)...Hurth ZF 63 V-drives...WB 7.0 BCGD (2013), Garmin 8208 & 740 MFDs, GMR 24xHD dome
    Mark
    I'm at a loss but am pulling for you. You will become THE authority on these units if you can pull this repair off!
     
  14. PlayDate

    PlayDate Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Washington DC
    1994 370 Express Cruiser
    454 Mercruisers
    Mark,

    Let's try to solve the starting/running problem. It sounds like the fuel pump is not working. You can jump power to the fuel pump and the unit should start and run. The electric fuel pumps fail on these things all the time. It is a $40 part and easy to install.

    The fact that it runs when you put gas down the carb tells me it will run if we get fuel to it. The carb could also be clogged since you really haven't used the generator in a while.

    Once you get it running....we can try a couple of other tests.


    I have never seen a daughter board on your generator. It looks like a few resistors and a diode but the picture is fuzzy. It will not prevent the unit from starting.

    -John
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2010
  15. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    John,

    Thanks for responding. The engine will definately run (with the old control board), as long as wire #85 (for the 3 sensors) is pulled off that little PC Board (pictured above). When reconnected, it shuts down immediately. The fuel pump is electronic and seems to work, unless I am missing what you said.

    Do you have ANY idea what that little PC board is? Dennis from ASAP is baffled by it.... he doesnt think it is a choke module, since that looks different albeit similar in size. He gave me something to test on the voltage regulator. he said "#4 an #0 are wire numbers on the Voltage regulator. Same as F+ and F- going to brushes." he is looking for 12V DC when cranking. I hope I can check that with a typical volt meter to some sort of terminal on the regulator...

    Do you agree i have 2 issues though? 1 for the voltage and the other why wire #85 when connected causes the engine to stop running....

    Thanks!
     
  16. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    another update, I went to boat this evening (75 miles away!).

    I was able to diagnose one of the problems I was having. That little PC Board (aka daughter card) was definately blow. There is a very dark brown burn mark on the board and a diode (or whatever it was) is loose. I decided to trace its wires and found 1 of its wires going to terminal 1 on the control board, the other to terminal 2. Basically power & ground. I also traced back wire #85 to insure it was connected to the oil pressure sensor. It was. I then connected wire 85 direct to terminal 12 on the control board and it started and ran nicely. The voltage is the only issue remaining I believe/hope!

    Per Dennis at ASAP (who is sooo helpful) asked to run voltage tests as described above in my last post. I traced the regulator cables and saw wire #4 (a red wire) attached to the 4th terminal from the left on the voltage regulator. I did not find wire #0. The only wire 0 I did find was a brown wire on the control board (I think it was on terminal 2) and that wire headed elsewhere.... I asked Dennis to help me ID the wire 0 running on the regulator... If anyone has any suggestions as to which terminal wire 0 would be attached to on the regulator I would much appreciate it.

    FWIW, I also pulled the fuel pump wire and the darn genny stalled immediately. so I am most sure that works as stated.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2010
  17. PlayDate

    PlayDate Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Washington DC
    1994 370 Express Cruiser
    454 Mercruisers
    Mark,

    At least the unit is back up and running.

    The daughter board makes no sense... constant 12v power, ground and safetys??? When this thing is in the circuit....it mimics a tripped safety (which could be a condition possibly set by the burned component). When you remove it from the circuit and attach the #85 wire to terminal #12 it starts and runs fine. Without a close look at the daughter board, my only guess is that it looks like a unknown safety of some sort that is based on 12v power. Since it has been in the circuit and worked for a long time, you have to presume it had a purpose at one point. A very close examination of the board could solve the mystery.

    Not withstanding the mystery, I don't believe its failure has anything to do with the generator not producing ac voltage. That is more in the domain of the voltage regulator, stator, brushes and windings.

    Check the wires (Dennis described) with a voltmeter and tell me what you find. Does the unit produce any ac at all?

    -JD
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2010
  18. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    John,

    FWIW, I just ordered the voltage regulator from ASAP. I figured for $155 it couldnt hurt. Dennis thought it was likely the cause, along with the lesser possibility of the stator, brushes and windings. I am hoping that the part arrives tomorrow since they are close proximity to me.

    As to that PC Board, I honestly dont know. In the picture above, it is definitely blown. My only concern now, is that the existing "original" control board wont sense a wire to ground condition and NOT shut the genny down. That is fairly easy to check though, since I probably could ground out the #85 wire onto the block (near the oil pressure sensor) no?

    John, can you tell me which terminals on the regulator I need to check...? There are 6 terminals in total. Like I said above, the wire #4 seems to be on the 4th pin from the left, but I cant seem to locate wire #0. Maybe you could talk me thru where it should be on that regulator (from left to right)? Dennis did say if worse comes to worse, I could check battery negative to terminal 4 while cranking...
     
  19. PlayDate

    PlayDate Well-Known Member

    Dec 25, 2006
    Washington DC
    1994 370 Express Cruiser
    454 Mercruisers
    Ground terminal 12 and the unit should shut down. I would really be surprised if it doesn't. If it doesn't shut down, you can stop the unit by pulling the fuse on the front of the unit. Check this before you install the new voltage regulator.

    Smart idea to order the regulator since the commute to the boat is so long. I believe that Dennis is right that the voltage regulator is the problem. I need to look at your wiring diagram to answer the wiring question. If it was me, I would put the new regulator in and start it up. You have gotten to the point that it is that or a far more serious problem in the stator and the windings.

    -JD
     
  20. MarkD

    MarkD Member

    355
    Oct 5, 2006
    Hudson River
    1990 35' Sundancer
    twin 454 inboards
    Well, I think the problem is finally solved! I received the voltage regulator Friday and put it in place late friday evening. On the new regulator, the field + and field - are clearly labeled. These are 3rd and 4th terminals from the left (thats more of an informational tip for anyone else having issues in the future). I started the genny up and FINALLY received voltage albeit ~98 volts. I also remembered there was a small adjustment dial on the regulator. I turned it a 1/4 turn clockwise and the panel voltage increased. I adjusted that to approximately where the normal 120V AC typically runs from shore power and then buttoned everything up. I next ran the genny with a full load on it (front air, water heater, ac charger, reefer etc.) to insure it would stay running. it did.

    So I am hoping the final chapter of this saga has ended. I just wanted to thank everyone who chimed and gave their opinions!!! I certainly learned alot!!!!!!!
     

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