Bad first day of the season for Atlantis :(

[jcjones]

Ever have your bilge look like a 5 gallon McDonalds chocolate shake exploded in there?

Last weekend I decided to get the boat ready for the season and was all excited to get her out this weekend. I ran both engines in the driveway with the muffs for well over 30 minutes to get things all up to temperature, check things, adjust the carbs, etc. Everything was fantastic, no hint of any problems, oil level perfect (no water in it at all), etc.

Sunday we took her to the lake and warmed up the engines while moored to the dock, all is well except I noticed that the Starboard engine was revving a little slow in neutral but no other symptoms or issues. Wasn't quite up to operating temperature yet, everything in the bilge looked great, and the air was a little colder then summer time so I didn't worry about it.

About 20' away from the dock is where the trouble started, while backing away from the shallows by the dock I noticed the boat starting to list to Starboard, went to about 10 degrees Starboard list pretty quickly (30 seconds maybe). This naturally seemed rather odd so as soon as I was clear from the dock area I put her in neutral and went back to check the bilge, engines, etc. Both engines still idling very smooth and sound fine. I lifted the bilge cover to see about 4" of goo in the bilge and the Starboard engine overflowing out the vents with frothy nastiness. I shut down the Starboard engine and proceeded across the lake (long story but had to pull out of the dock on the other side) on one engine - talk about a slow trip.

Anyway, anybody have any idea what would likely cause this so suddenly? I would assume a cracked block from some water not getting fully out over the winter except that it didn't get any water in the oil in 30 minutes of running with the muffs a week prior. The temps since then have not been below 40 degrees. And it wasn't having any problem while idling getting up to temperature at the dock either. Once it did start and the engine filling with water caused the list to Starboard it was maybe 60 seconds to have 4" of goo in the bilge and the engine overflowing from the crankcase vents.

Here's a wild thought of a possibility but it seems really far fetched - give me a sanity check here. As far as I know the exhaust manifolds are original to the boat (28 years old). What is the likelihood that one of those has corroded where it allowed a small amount of water to leak into the exhaust port on the engine after running it last weekend and that exhaust valve happened to be in the open position. Then when firing it over this weekend it wasn't enough water to hydrolock or do any hard compression damage but maybe enough to blow out a 28 year old head gasket far enough to open a channel between a cooling passage and an oil passage.

Yea, I know - way out there.. But I'm hoping that maybe I can clean things out, replace a head gasket and a couple of exhaust manifolds and be back in business without having to find an "unobtanioum" OMC 3.8 V6 engine.

All ideas and suggestions are happily encouraged, I'm in serious withdrawal and need to get on the water soon to shake the winter blues here....

 

[capecodcruiser]

I hope you are ready to be lambasted for having 28 year old manifolds/risers! The spanking you will get on here won't be pretty! Hope you can sort it out.

 

[jcjones]

capecodcruiser: Yes, I am very aware of that (thanks for the heads up though... lol). Unfortunately, there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available anywhere. None of the local marine shops can get them at any price. So, replacing the manifolds are simply not an option - not sure how to deal with that issue but I'll deal with that after I deal with the engine issue.

 

[jffacets]

capecodcruiser: Yes, I am very aware of that (thanks for the heads up though... lol). Unfortunately, there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available anywhere. None of the local marine shops can get them at any price. So, replacing the manifolds are simply not an option - not sure how to deal with that issue but I'll deal with that after I deal with the engine issue.

I lost my port engine through that very sequence. It bent a rod at high rpm so it was cooked. It was an autopsy on the fried engine that reveled the cause. I really didn’t care because I was installing two new engines in a total refit anyway. It may be worth it to look into short blocks, marine version, they are cheap on 5.7’s. I would also look up a company called Barrmarine.com for the exhaust parts

 

[jcjones]

jffacets: Barr Marine (barrmarine.net) lists manifolds for the old Buick V6 used I believe until the early 70's sometime and the newest V6 which is the 4.3 (center riser) but not for the 3.8 (rear riser).

I am looking at the possibility of changing both engines out with 350's (5.7). I guess my dilemma there is that if I get long blocks I'll still need to get OMC rear riser manifolds which while still available for the 5.7 are very expensive, and of course new water pumps, etc. I think if I'm going to go with new engines I may change over to Mercruiser drives and do the transom work to mount them. Seems parts would be a lot easier to come by and a lot cheaper to buy. Then I have to decide if I really like this boat enough to spend that kind of money or if I should just find a different twin drive boat already equipped with Merc drives.

As of when I shut my Starboard engine down it was still running smoothly so I'm hoping I can find a *relatively* inexpensive solution to at least get through a couple more seasons before I have to make the *really expensive* decisions...

 

[sprink56]

JC,

Your theory might be spot on....but you won't know until you tear in to it.

Based on what I see in the "mental video" you produced thumbsup...
you have a blown head gasket on the starboard engine.

Now to salvage this deal you have a few options. The least expensive is to pull the heads on the starboard engine and see if you in fact have a blown head gasket...if you do there is hope.
However ...you do know that you are on borrowed time with ALL of the manifolds....the other three could go at any time. The chances of finding 4: that are serviceable are very slim....but not impossible.

Decision time...understanding that the old "knuckle" drive OMC's are not worth spending money on and that a conversion to Merc will require all new everything...unless you can find a doner boat for what you need...well....:smt009...you could easily drop $10K~$12K. Time to move onward and upward.:thumbsup:

John F

 

[gerryb]

Nice boat but at 30 years on her...your likely to be throwing good money after bad. I might pull the engines out and try to sell the shell as a 'project boat' for someone with more time and money than I would want to put into it.

 

[SCORPIO]

Why don't you just install merc center riser manifolds on both engines? I did that on my old '82 with a 260 OMC Stringer. The manifolds and risers are cheaper and readily available and all you have to do is get some wet exhaust hose and a pair of elbows and you're done. The center riser design flows exhaust more efficiently so you pick up some free HP while you're at it. It would probablly be too expensive to replace both engines and outdrives with Merc units. If you can find a good used 3.8 and some replacement manifolds from Barr or Osco and do the conversion I mentioned, you should be up and running in a short time for relatively low cost.

You guys give up too easily, there are options besides NEW engines and outdrives. The 3.8 is a vary common motor, should be tons of rebuildable units out there, or even Jasper units for not much money. If his boat is in decent shape and his dirves are decent, one reman engine and a conversion to Merc style manifolds will put him back on the water quickly and inexpensively compared to buying another boat. Especially if he can do the labor himself.

 

[BonBini]

I'm a little skeptic on the blown head gasket theory.

1).. if you open the combustion chamber area to water entry via exhaust valve or fire ring, the cylinder will most likely misfire.

2).. since you seem knowledgeable enough to adjust your carbs, I think you would have picked up on the misfire.

3).. I have a prognosis that you've opened up an avenue for sea water to enter the crankcase area... possible water passage via intake manifold gasket of steam plug blown out of cylinder head.

4).. test by; remove all spark plugs. remove both valve covers. plumb in your garden hose to the water line coming up from the sea water pump and see what’s going on.

 

[my3sons]

I'm a little skeptic on the blown head gasket theory.

1).. if you open the combustion chamber area to water entry via exhaust valve or fire ring, the cylinder will most likely misfire.

2).. since you seem knowledgeable enough to adjust your carbs, I think you would have picked up on the misfire.

3).. I have a prognosis that you've opened up an avenue for sea water to enter the crankcase area... possible water passage via intake manifold gasket of steam plug blown out of cylinder head.

4).. test by; remove all spark plugs. remove both valve covers. plumb in your garden hose to the water line coming up from the sea water pump and see what’s going on.

Ron beat me to this type of reply..I agree with 1,2,and 3.
I'm not sure about #4 but he may be right there also???
Motor you say was running too smooth to be a problem in the combustion chambers

 

[sprink56]

JC,

One more idea...check these folks for your needs once you determine your actual "cause and effect":thumbsup:

http://www.shipwreckusedparts.com/

They may have what you need and save you$$$$.

Good Luck with this and let us know how it turns out.

John F

 

[jcjones]

sprink56: Probably won't get a chance to tear into anything until this weekend, and I've got a lot of cleanup work to do in the engine compartment before I can do anything. That oil mixed with water sludge is barely even draining out bilge and it's way too thick for the bilge pump to pump out. Guess I'll try to find some type of de-greaser that won't harm the fiberglass - any suggestions? I agree with you on the Merc conversion - at this point just too expensive for that and way too much time involved.

I have found a couple of possibilities for donor boats that are powered with a 3.8 OMC. One of them is a nice enough boat that I would feel terrible tearing it apart for the engine but the other one while being a servicable boat is not in the greatest shape and probably is better suited to be a parts boat anyway.

SCORPIO: Great suggestion on using Merc manifolds and risers. I was just thinking last night that there must be a less expensive and more obtainable option for manifolds and figured I would have to do a lot of research to find it. I was even considering through-hull exhaust. I was going to look at the center rise 4.3 OMC manifilds as a first option but certainly Merc parts would be cheaper so I'll check that option first. I kind of agree with you about all new parts - if we were talking about a relatively new boat that would be a different story but dumping $10k or more in parts into a 30 year old boat is just not an option. And buying another boat is not really an option either at this time - after having a twin engine boat I'll never go back to a single drive boat and while in some areas they are everywhere, here in Colorado or anywhere even remotely close they are extraordinarially rare and even a 25 or 30 year old boat will bring upwards of $20k if it's in decent shape.

BonBini: When I was running the engines in my driveway a week ago everything was perfect, I just had to adjust the idle on the carbs to bring both engines in sync after sitting all winter. The problem didn't occur until a week later when I put her on the lake and it's not at all unusual for the engines to run a little rough at first bringing 40 degree or colder water in. What ever happened happened very suddenly and the engine filled with water in a very short period of time and within 2 to 3 minutes had already put gallons of sludge into the bilge. So, a fairly large port into the crankcase opened up pretty quickly. I can't imagine that if the block was cracked that it wouldn't have started leaking into the engine in the 30+ minutes I ran it in the driveway or the 10 minutes it was running in the lake at the dock before pulling away. I really am at a loss as to what happened and I guess I won't know until I tear the engine apart but I was just trying to theorize what could have happened based on my knowledge of engines in general.

I do think that hooking up the muffs and putting some pressure through the raw water cooling system with the cumbustion chamers open (plugs out) will be a good diagnostic aid but I've got to clean things up first or I'll just be dumping more sludge into the bilge and the way it's set up in there to have twin engines in this style boat there are a lot of places that are damn near impossible to get to for cleaning it out.

Thank you all for your suggestions (and even sympathy). Not a happy week for Atlantis but hopefully within a few weeks I'll have picked a solution and be on the path to getting her back on the water.

 

[Daddubo]

jcjones try some Simple Green or a Citric cleaner or better yet get some liquid laundry soap that should cut the grease just watch where you drain it someone might call the EPA Police on you! You might want to do it at night unless you have a friend with a farm.

 

[tdappleman]

I wouldn't drain that out just onto the ground.... If you can get some 5 gallon buckets and try to scoop out as much as you can before you add more water or cleaner. You should have a recycling center near you which will take the residue.

After you scoop it all out then you'll be able to use degreaser on the bilge and clean it out enough so you can at least work down there.

 

[sprink56]

JC...Food for thought. Your comfort and sanity become a major issue with a calamity such as this. I suggest you look into getting Atlantis to a place where you can work on it...make preliminary arrangements to pull the suspect engine out with a hoist and get it on a stand to tear it down.

Doing this will give you free access to the other engine and will help you in cleaning up the mess. Working around all that goop will drive anybody nuts. Once you get it out you can work in a more relaxed posture and not be in a "sweat" all the time you are working....plus it will give you a chance to do a real cleaning job in the bilge.

I'm trying to put myself in that situation...which is not too hard because I have had to do similar things. Make it easy on yourself.:thumbsup:

BTW.. a small amount of dishwasher powder (i.e. Cascade) does a great job of cutting grease. I can also reccomend Orpine Bilge Cleaner...great stuff.

John F.

 

[ARCADIE IV]

Good comments out here so far. It is interesting..you say the 4" of brown goo made the boat list? That would mean that water was pumping into the motor (from wherever) and displacing the oil through the dipstick and/or breather(s) on the rocker arm covers....That would be a LOT of water to make the boat actually list. Is the dipstick showing oil, milky oil, or clear water? There's no doubt the manifolds are old and suspect, but if they were bad, I don't think enough water could get down into the oil pan and start displacing the oil before you hydrolocked or misfired.

It is possible that if you have an engine oil cooler, it may have ruptured internally and is passing water into the oil...

The mystery continues. I do my own work on my 1972 SRV 240 with the original 888 mercruiser. She keeps plugging along, I like it when it does't cost a lot!

Peter

 

[1956olds]

You could try checker marine in Lasalle michigan for used parts .I think they have 400 boats to part out there.

 

[83searay]

Re there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available

:smt101:smt021RE: Unfortunately, there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available anywhere. None of the local marine shops can get them at any price. So, replacing the manifolds are simply not an option -

Sure there is a replacement you just haven't look hard enough.........Online e-basic power, I don't want to hear people like yourself I can't find it anywhere does anyone know where and/or how to... Bluh Bluh.. Look and you will see its and easy ass fix if you have the ability too, or sell your boat. Good luck, peace.:smt021 :smt024:smt024:smt024

 

[tdschafer]

Re: Re there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available

:smt101:smt021RE: Unfortunately, there appear to not be any 3.8 V6 OMC manifolds available anywhere. None of the local marine shops can get them at any price. So, replacing the manifolds are simply not an option -

Sure there is a replacement you just haven't look hard enough.........Online e-basic power, I don't want to hear people like yourself I can't find it anywhere does anyone know where and/or how to... Bluh Bluh.. Look and you will see its and easy ass fix if you have the ability too, or sell your boat. Good luck, peace.:smt021 :smt024:smt024:smt024

Someone didn't have his morning java yet........

 

[tdappleman]

Wow..... kick a man while his boats down....

He (and a lot of others) have searched for these manifolds with no luck.
83 - Why don't you look and post the link for the 3.8 exhaust parts?