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Coincidence?

Discussion in 'Diesel Engines/Drives/Transmissions/Props' started by crazy diver, Oct 1, 2020.

  1. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    Splashed the boat yesterday after getting a bottom paint job. Out of water for 7 days. Port engine would not start. (cat 3126) It finally started on about the 4th try, idled rough. After observing no water coming out of exhaust, I shut it down. Then tried to start again and it just cranked. Finally after an hour of priming it started. Still no water. Have water at least to the strainer which is clean. Boat ran fine when pulled from the water. Has always started immediately. Any clue to what is going on?
     
  2. Stee6043

    Stee6043 Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2015
    West Michigan
    1997 Sundancer 400
    7.4L Gassers
    My first guess would be your impeller. Being dry for a few seconds at start up may have been just enough to render it smoked. When were your impellers last replaced?
     
  3. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    shop just called its a bad pump. Of course it's a bear to get to. 20 hrs labor. Does that sound right?
     
  4. Stee6043

    Stee6043 Well-Known Member

    Jun 1, 2015
    West Michigan
    1997 Sundancer 400
    7.4L Gassers
    20 hours? Good god. Do they have to pull an engine and transmission to get to your water pump? Yikes...that would be $3k in labor at my local marina. Wowsers....

    I hope they put the decimal in the wrong place. 2 hours seems more reasonable...
     
  5. Haden

    Haden Active Member

    271
    May 27, 2020
    Madison, Alabama
    2001 Sea Ray 380 Sundancer
    Twin 8.1l Mercury w/V Drives
    Wow!! Just wow!!!
     
  6. The Bill Collector

    The Bill Collector Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tacoma, WA
    1998 450 Sundancer, Achilles dinghy
    3126 Cat's
    Go pull your cover plate off and inspect your impeller and I'm getting ready to do my raw water pump swap out and can't imagine in my wildest dreams spending 20 hours on 4 bolts with 2 connecting hoses...
     
  7. bahamabreisus

    bahamabreisus Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2007
    Hampstead NC
    500 dancer, previous 420,390,300 dancers
    detriot 8v92
    I dont see why a bad impeller would stop an engine from starting.
     
  8. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    I know the non starting problem has nothing to do with the water pump problem. I can't figure out how air got in the fuel system if that is the starting problem. Never happened before. The shop did remove the impeller, it was all there just distorted some. I guess the pump shaft wobbled and you can see where it has been leaking onto the motor mount. The Mechanic says you have to remove the motor mount to get the pump off. Said it is all by feel you can't visually see the pump.
     
  9. bahamabreisus

    bahamabreisus Well-Known Member

    Oct 25, 2007
    Hampstead NC
    500 dancer, previous 420,390,300 dancers
    detriot 8v92
    Don't your Cats have a manual primer pump to pull fuel thru. I know our Detroits have to be done with a vacuum style pump
     
  10. ttmott

    ttmott PhD in OCD GOLD Sponsor

    Apr 3, 2012
    Space Coast Florida
    2006 52 Sedan Bridge
    Cummins QSM11
    Hogwash on pulling the motor mount to get the raw water pump removed.
    IMG_3236.JPG
     
  11. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    The problem is the boat is at a shop 20 miles up river from the marina where my slip is. And I live out of state. They got me by the cahonies! I am going over there today to look at it.
     
  12. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    bahamabriesus...Yes manual pump, also a bear to get too on that port side. As I pumped it, it leaked Diesel and took a lot of pumps to finally get the engine too start
     
    bahamabreisus likes this.
  13. brewster16

    brewster16 Active Member

    594
    Aug 9, 2009
    Long Beach Island, N.J.
    '07 44 Sundancer
    Twin Cummins QSC 8.3
    there is NO WAY it's a 20 hour job.....just no way!
     
  14. my3sons

    my3sons Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Feb 24, 2009
    NY (Lake Erie)
    2004 400DB, Onan 9 kw Gen, Highfield RIB,
    Cummins 6CTA
    I tried to negotiate new impeller installations along with some other minor deferred maintenance items into the deal when I purchased. The PO had all the work done except the port side impeller. He showed me an estimate of 10 hours labor to do that impeller and said "isn't happening, buy it or don't". I do it in a fraction of that time, but it certainly isn't a 20 minute job like the starboard side. I think they like to build in a "PITA" factor for jobs that are a PITA, even though it may not be all that difficult. They charge what they think people will pay.
    If I ever had to hire a mechanic, I think I would want to hire an independent. At least the guy wearing all the band-aids on his hands and arms gets the money.
     
  15. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    I think you are correct Mark. The shop said I could bring in a certified Cat Mechanic for a surcharge. I have tried to find one but they are all booked up or are over a 100 miles away. My only other option is to try to get it home on one engine, and it's been windy here the last week. Not worth the risk.
     
  16. fwebster

    fwebster Well-Known Member TECHNICAL Contributor PLATINUM Sponsor

    Oct 6, 2006
    Middle Tennessee ; Panama City Beach, FL
    1996 450DA
    3116 Caterpillars
    I'm not defending the 20 hour "We really don't want to do that job" estimate to replace the seawater pump, but, for you guys who say "No Way", have you ever even see the bilge on a Sea Ray aft cabin? Changing that pump has to be done almost by feel.

    The mechanic doing it needs to look like a double jointed spider monkey and be comfortable working hanging by his tail from something above the engine.


    Now, to the task at hand........You don't need a Cat Mechanic to change that pump. It is a simple mechanical task and the only tricky part is that the mechanic needs to know that there is a drive gear pressed on the pump shaft and to use care pulling the pump out of the front accessory drive housing.

    Also, replace all the water hoses while the pump is removed.

    Unless there are rusty stains around the vent holes in the pump that shows that the pump is leaking, I would pull the back cover off the pump and check the impeller. Frequently when a boat with an old impeller has been out of the water a while, the water in the pump evaporates and the pump starts dry and tears the remaining impeller vanes off (because they are already cracked and brittle and it then won't pick up water from the strainer. So this might be as simple as changing the impeller ($65 + maybe an hour + labor) and pulling the end off the heat exchanger and retreiving all the broken impeller pieces that are caught ahead of the tube bundle

    Last, I think your engine has gotten air introduced into the fuel system. It probably came from the priming pump. If you tried to prime it and it ended up leaking, I'd bet the little ball valve that opens the fuel flow to the priming pump was left open (partially?)and where diesel fuel gets out, air gets in. In a case like yours, where the boat has beeen sitting idle, fuel will slowly siphon back out of the secondary fuel filter, leaving an air pocket at the top. Then when you try to start or purge the air out of the system, you pass the air at the top of the filter on into the fuel gallery in head and all 6 cylinders become air-bound. The little knurled knob on the ball valve loses its grip on the its shaft when fuel stays on it a while. Then, you can not feel when the valve is open or closed and it you leave it just a little open, you get what you have now. You can either replace the little ball valve and knob, or get it closed and abandon using the priming pump in favor of prefilling your fuel filters.

    Good luck with the above........



    Frank
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
  17. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    Thanks Frank, That makes me feel a little better about the pump replacement. I finally made it back to the boat today to look it over and the pump is located in a miserable place. They did get the impeller out and it was deformed, but all there. As far as the air introduced into the fuel system, I only primed it as a last resort. This is the first time I have ever even touched the primer pump. It would not start, and both the motors always fire immediately even after sitting for a few months. It had only been out of the water for 7 days.
     
  18. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    UPDATE!! Decided to move boat back to marina slip (about 20 miles ) on the starboard engine. I just did not feel comfortable with the shop doing the work. I felt that they would hammer me on the price, and the mechanic did not want to do it. I ended up doing it myself with the help of a fellow dock mate. quite the job...took about 10 hours to pull and replace. Pretty sore today after laying on my side and stomach in the bilge and on top of the engine for 10 hours. But got allot of knowledge and confidence to tackle the next job.
     
    my3sons and The Bill Collector like this.
  19. The Bill Collector

    The Bill Collector Well-Known Member GOLD Sponsor

    Jun 2, 2008
    Tacoma, WA
    1998 450 Sundancer, Achilles dinghy
    3126 Cat's
    BRAVO !!!
     
  20. crazy diver

    crazy diver Member

    46
    Mar 1, 2019
    2001 380 AC
    Cat 3126 350HP x 2
    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the port engine fired right up. Still can't figure out why it would not start at the shop. Is there a kill switch that activates if there is no seawater coming into the engine?
     

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