dishonest or just nondisclosure ??

[moparlvr4406]

drove to Cincinati yesterday to look at a 1986 340 dancer.
What a POS !!!
Called the dealer to get some details and most of the conversation was "I really don't know that much about it"
the pics on the listing looked nice but could tell it needed some updating desparately in places...but it IS an 86
called ahead about 1pm to tell them we were on the way soon and arrived about 5:30.
when we walked out to the yard there it sat. all of the camper canvas still zipped up and the hatches closed.
it was about 125 degrees inside this old tub.
the inside was acceptable but some of the specifics I asked about on the phone as far as engines and structure that I got the IDK response were quite obvious. starboard engine had been changed...had rebuilders tags on the valve covers...port appeared to be stock...even still had the 1986 grease all over it and in the bilge under it.the heat exchanger on the front of the port engine looked like someone with a large hammer and anger management issues had experienced an episode on it.all of the lift knobs for the floor access hatches had been used so often that the holes were oblonged about 2"
the total deal breaker was when I walked out onto the front deck I thought I was going to land in the Vberth. the glass flexed **at least** 2 1/2" up and down as I was walking on it..this was from the front hatch all the way to the LOOSE windlass :wow:....the deck coring was gone !!
when I came back down the radar arch flexed sideways about 6-8" ..not good to steady oneself on needless to say.
the salesman asked me what I saw up there and I told him about the soft deck and his response was.."oh yeah...that"
this boat had been sitting untouched for a year and a half according to him (now he seems to know more about it) but all of the major systems checked out good according to him.
The batteries were still connected and looked like a ChiaPet breeding ground.
The A/C unit looked as if it had never seen daylight and was packed in animal hair of some sort.
the bottom paint was new...why ??
the windows actually didn't appear to leak ..amazingly
when I told him I really wasn't interested he had the balls to ask why and would I like to make an offer on it.
uhhhhhhh....no.
he then proceded to tell me it was a 30 yr old boat and I would never find one that was perfect and for some reason volenteered the information that if I had a survey done on ANY boat that age I would find a wet transom...I never mentioned or even looked at the transom.....no need at that point.
he seemed to know more than he said he did when I actually got there.
why would someone do this to a potential buyer that they know is going to drive 2 1/2 hours 1 way to look at their boat???
did he think he could talk me into something else while I was there after NOT telling me the truth about the one I was coming to look at ??
is this common practice at boat dealers ....to try to stay ignorant of issues so they can say "I really don't know" ???
guess it was just a bad experience and I needed to vent.

 

[Ten Years Gone]

Jim,

Just reliving that experience with you pisses me off! I have gone through that with private sellers plenty of times before...never a "dealer". Not sure how you handled your frustration, but I would have told him/them to go to hell and a few other choice phrases. There is no excuse for this type of behavior from a so called business owner/operator! What angers me the most is that some fool without any boating knowledge will be suckered into buying that heap, and the seller has no qualms about doing it apparently! I think you should do everyone on this board a favor and broadcast the name of this shyster!

 

[fwebster]

Take about 2 steps back from the "I drove 5 hours for nothing thing" and you'll see the why's.

He couldn't sell you anything if you didn't show up since photos would most likely have been a turn off. His initial responses were geared to the goal of getting you there. All the BS about the 30 year old boat being normal, etc was a feeble attempt to get an offer. Keep in mind he either works for the seller or a dealer and definitely not for you, therefore, his priority pecking order is 1.) his commission, 2.) his employer 3.) his seller, then somewhere way down the list is you. He also makes nothing until he gets an offer from a buyer. Keep in mind that when shopping for used boats, you have to look at a lot of candidates to find the good ones, and the older and cheaper the cost of the boat, the more dogs you will have to wade thru.

Certainly, not all sales people or brokers work this way. There are some excellent very straightforward ones out there, unfortunately the bad ones leave a lost worse taste in our mouths than the good ones do.

 

[moparlvr4406]

I just left considering it a learning experiece
I hate naming places in open forum but anyone who wants to know o would tell them by PM without any issues

 

[moparlvr4406]

I realize GOOD old boats are few and far between but having dealt in antque cars ..they are out there
I will look at several real turds to find a good one
but I will find it and at my price
I just expect honesty from the seller

 

[nowakezone]

This thread was meant for me...I, too, had no experience with broker/dealers prior to my present search for a 340. What you have found is the same that I have found...lots of misinformation and no effort to know any of the boats they list.

Obviously I can't claim every broker is the same, there are good ones. I have an accepted offer on one and we are working off the survey dings. However, I'm working them off with the seller's broker versus mine...whom I dismissed. Yes he'll still get his share, and yes this is the same guy I wanted to reward earlier....but only fools and dead people don't change their minds. I am neither.

From my little experience I can say that a listing broker needs to do a whole lot more than just list the boat. The lisitng broker should do what I'm calling a 'Broker's Survey.' For the most part, everyone knows the check list for a survey. Why don't listing brokers check the boats themselves using a thorough checklist? The broker should sea trial the boat, too!

As for the buyer's broker...he should do his Broker's Survey prior to the official survey, including sea trial the boat. This idea that the official survey is where these problems are found is ridiculous. Outside of hull moisture, compression check, and fluids analysis....anyone can make sure everything works and the engines rev to the WOT range.

Bottom line, the results of an official survey should be known before it even occurs. The only time a surprise should show up is when the broker can say, "It wasn't that way yesterday." I've paid for two surveys now, and both boats failed on items that should have been known and disclosed prior to me spending any money. This is why I dismissed my broker. I'm not out to fund the Surveyor industry. Except for the items listed above, I think a survey is pretty much a joke anyway.

So Mopar, my suggestion would be when you call the broker/dealer, ask that person to get the answers to your questions and get back to you. If you need to, go online to a surveyor's website and download his checklist and work from that. If you're questions get answered and you want to see the boat, take the list with you and check everything on it while you're there. Essentially do your own survey. Insist on a sea trial prior to making an offer. If they won't do that...insist on one prior to paying for a survey. It doesn't take a surveyor to know that the port engine ran great and well into the WOT range but the starboard engine sputtered and surged at WOT and barely made the range. Now you can say, Hey...there's a problem...how about getting it diagnosed and let's see what's up. Or the problem might be such that you walk away from the boat and haven't spent a dime for someone to tell you what you or the broker could have found out on your own.

Again, hull moisture, engine compression, and fluids analysis....other than those items you can do the rest on your own.

 

[CHiefho70]

When I was looking for a new boat I called BE Marine in Michigan City Indiana about a 97 370 I saw on their web site. The first thing out of his mouth was not to waste my time that it was a pos and went on to tell me everything it needed. Now thats an honest salesman.

 

[moparlvr4406]

When I was looking for a new boat I called BE Marine in Michigan City Indiana about a 97 370 I saw on their web site. The first thing out of his mouth was not to waste my time that it was a pos and went on to tell me everything it needed. Now thats an honest salesman.

that is great !!
I have always lived in a world where ones word was his/her bond
anything I sell I probably over analyze and run down ..especially if someone is driving a long way to look at it
I figure if someone will spend a day of their life to come look the are probably serious to buy and why waste thier time if it isn't what they are after.
drove to North Carolina one night with car trailer in tow to get a car I had been looking for for 20 years only to find the pictures the guy sent me were taken about 7 years before the tree fell on it...I was pissed on that one. before the days of text and emails. after that I always mailed them a marked disposable camera and told them what pics I wanted and to send it back undeveloped...insured freshness of the photos :wink:

 

[Gofirstclass]

Nowakezone, I'm going to make some comments about your post, and please don't take offense at them. They're just my opinion and that's been shaped and polished over the 60+ years I've been around boats, and my experiences with several different brokers.

Obviously I can't claim every broker is the same, there are good ones. I have an accepted offer on one and we are working off the survey dings. Further down you say that surveyors aren't necessary, but you're saying here that you're using the results of a survey to adjust the deal. I've found you can't have it both ways. However, I'm working them off with the seller's broker versus mine...whom I dismissed. How did you go from loving your broker to dismissing your broker in just a few days??? Just curious about that one. Yes he'll still get his share, and yes this is the same guy I wanted to reward earlier....but only fools and dead people don't change their minds. I am neither.

From my little experience I can say that a listing broker needs to do a whole lot more than just list the boat. The lisitng broker should do what I'm calling a 'Broker's Survey.' For the most part, everyone knows the check list for a survey. Why don't listing brokers check the boats themselves using a thorough checklist? The broker should sea trial the boat, too!Many listing brokers do a "mini-survey" for their use but would you trust a survey done by the seller? I wouldn't, and wouldn't even be interested in knowing he'd done one. I would EXPECT it to be biased.

As for the buyer's broker...he should do his Broker's Survey prior to the official survey, including sea trial the boat. I strongly disagree with this statement. YOUR broker is not qualified to do a survey and it would be a waste of his time to try to do one on every boat each of his customers shows an interest in. This idea that the official survey is where these problems are found is ridiculous. I disagree with this also. The results of a survey done by ANYONE OTHER THAN SOMEONE YOU'RE PAYING to do it will be suspect and I wouldn't count on it for much. When you hire a surveyor, you want to hire someone you can trust. Also, when you hire a surveyor his report belongs to you, and only you. Outside of hull moisture, compression check, and fluids analysis....anyone can make sure everything works and the engines rev to the WOT range. A qualified surveyor should do more than the few things you listed. A good one will inspect things like battery connections, wiring, fuel hoses and tanks, electrical panels, wiring from aftermarket installations, etc., with the goal of making sure they are up to code and don't present any safety hazards. I'm certainly not qualified to make those kinds of decisions, and I suspect you aren't either.

Bottom line, the results of an official survey should be known before it even occurs. Really? Is your surveyor also a psychic that can complete a detailed survey before he even has seen the boat? The only time a surprise should show up is when the broker can say, "It wasn't that way yesterday." I've paid for two surveys now, and both boats failed on items that should have been known and disclosed prior to me spending any money. Wrong again, IMHO. Items known to whom? To the seller or his broker? They have no legal obligation to disclose items to you. That's what a surveyor does FOR YOU. You're ticked beause you have paid for two surveys that found items FOR YOU that saved you from buying a boat that had problems. I guess I fail to see where the surveyors didn't do what they were supposed to do. This is why I dismissed my broker. I'm not out to fund the Surveyor industry. Except for the items listed above, I think a survey is pretty much a joke anyway. I can tell from your post that I'm not likely to change your mind. You're neither dead nor a fool, but I suspect you won't change your mind based on what I've written here. But I would suggest that you take a step back from the boat buying/surveying for a bit and reanalyze what it is you expect from a surveyor and how you have already used two surveyors to keep you from buying problem boats.

So Mopar, my suggestion would be when you call the broker/dealer, ask that person to get the answers to your questions and get back to you. If you need to, go online to a surveyor's website and download his checklist and work from that. If you're questions get answered and you want to see the boat, take the list with you and check everything on it while you're there. Essentially do your own survey. Insist on a sea trial prior to making an offer. I doubt you'll find many selling brokers willing to do this. Every Tom, Dick and Harry who wants a freebie boat ride would be knocking on the door asking for a sea trial. If they won't do that...insist on one prior to paying for a survey. This probably wouldn't work either because a surveyor is going to want to have the boat out of the water for a period of time before he does his moisture checks. It doesn't take a surveyor to know that the port engine ran great and well into the WOT range but the starboard engine sputtered and surged at WOT and barely made the range. Now you can say, Hey...there's a problem...how about getting it diagnosed and let's see what's up. Or the problem might be such that you walk away from the boat and haven't spent a dime for someone to tell you what you or the broker could have found out on your own.

Again, hull moisture, engine compression, and fluids analysis....other than those items you can do the rest on your own.

I'd suggest you google Steve D'Agostino and see what he's written on boat surveys. That will likely open your eyes to what a good surveyor looks for and how it can save you a lot of money or keep you from buying a boat that has lots of hidden problems.

Again, please don't take offense at my comments. They're not intended to criticize you, just to maybe have you reconsider your position on surveys and surveyors. I know I'm not qualified to properly survey a boat and that's why I've had surveys done on the last three boats I've bought, including two surveys on the one I have now. One of those was for the hull and mechanical equipment and the other on the CAT engines and transmissions. There are far too many systems on this boat for me to even think I'm smart enough to know all about all of them. The peace of mind I got from reading through two very well written survey reports was worth every penny of what I spent for the surveyors.