Planing issues with 2005 thru 2007 350MAG powered 260DA's ?

Actually, Cap10Pat, I respectfully disagree with you.

First,the BravoIII is most commonly offered with much lower gear ratios than either the BI and BII. Both my boats are 2.2:1. Also, the primary reason the BIII is so commonly used for cruisers is for it's low-end capabilities. The BI is usually the best for top speed.

As far as stability, the narrow beam on both Dave's boat and your 260 and my 260 makes them a bit tender. Chinewalking ocurs when speeds get high enough that the chine at the transom is no longer in the water. I feel confident none of our boats are that fast.

But I do agree that perception is an issue. I do not believe the early '80's 260's performed well with 350's. A big block makes a tremendous difference, in my opinion.

Dave, have you tried moving the trim pin yet?
 
For the record, I have never experienced Chine Walk. And again......for the record........this difficulty planing only occurs when I have a load (of people) in the cockpit exceeding roughly 1000 pounds (by my calculations). And I also am not using trim tabs to come on plane because of the tendency of the boat to lean hard to starboard as it comes on plane. It might come on plane a bit better with the tabs.

After delving into the outdrive mounting further, there are not two holes as I thought earlier. There is indeed what they call a "celery stick" spacer that keokie mentioned that can be switched around in the mounting for the hydraulic rams to lower the outdrive further. My boat is in the shop as we speak for the 100 hour service. I have spoken with my dealer and they will move the celery stick. They said this is a fairly common procedure to get boats to plane off faster. I will let you know what I think when I have a chance to water test the boat later in the week or next week.
 
As far as stability, the narrow beam on both Dave's boat and your 260 and my 260 makes them a bit tender.


"Tender" is that how you describe it? I say "unacceptable".
This tendacy is what will keep me from trading up. Thank you for the observation of the trim pin. I'll be checking mine tonight.
 
I also think the "stability" issue is affected somewhat by the deadrise on the newer 260. On the 2004 and older the deadrise is 19 degrees but the 2005 and up has a 21 degree deadrise.
 
You know thinking about it, why if it is "common practice" to move the "celery stick" for better planning times has that as an option not surfaced to help my situation. I've talked till I'm blue in the face to many different shops and this has never come up. (I have the same dealer as Dave.) Why didn't the Merc R&D team not explain this to me? Or at least tell me to try it? The "cruiser" industry confuses me to say the least. I think the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and there is big money in confusion. Once again I am disappointed in this boating segment. Especially when John Q public is more informed than the supposed professionals.
 
You know Dave there is alot of weight added to the hull because Sea Ray wanted to offer the 260 as an offshore capable platform. See earlier posts in this thread. My opinion is that Sea Ray should have expected these diffciencies and planned accordingly. I think the idea is great but not well thought out. I think in hind sight the design was rushed to production and the short falls are showing.

I cannot speak from experience, but I'd bet the 280 does not share these troubles due to the extra, or should I say proper beam to length ratio. :huh: I don't know.
 
Mike

I don't think I totally agree with you. One thing I have learned about our pocket cruisers is that they are all compromises of sorts. If it's not performance then maybe it's space or convenience or whatever. All I know is, the larger you go in a cruiser the more those compromises begin to disappear. And like you, a cruiser has been a totally different experience for me as well. Compared to my previous boats, where people capacity and planing and handling, were not issues, it is like night and day.


But I am determined to find a solution of sorts when I have a bunch of people on board. I would prefer that the boat be perfect but it isn't. I just think some of it comes with the territory unfortunately. :smt021
 
Lots of good info flying around since my last post above. For Islandhopper, let me say that at least you can get some pretty good knowledge and opinions here - even if you can't get it from the company and the professionals. And, I think most of us like being more informed and involved than we have to with our cars.

Since almost all explanations for this "tenderness" seem to have been dismissed, let me say some more on that. My old 1980 260 comes on plane very nicely with no "tenderness". The beam on this hull is 8.0 ft, surely narrower than the modern. So, I can't believe that beam alone can explain it. Someone mentioned length to beam ratio, which has some promise. My 260 has a waterline length of 21.0 ft. I'd bet the current 260 is much shorter. If so, that ratio could be pretty small.

Since a couple of posters have described chine-walk, I will have to go with that, as I find it hard to refute that. So, the question is why. I'm thinking that with a severe bow-up attitude trying to get on plane that the chines are indeed deep in the water, but there isn't much of them in. The front of the boat - especially at the chines, has lifted resulting in only part of the chine length in the water, and that part is at an attitude where water is no longer flowing along the chines horizontally, but has begun hitting them from below (as normally oriented). Just a hypothesis here.

I guess the B3 would have to have a low gear ratio since it carries so much prop surface. I'm not familiar with prop options, if there are any. On a traditional outdrive, my first efforts would be to select a better prop. Maybe this is a limitation of the B3 that I had never thought much about before.

PS: The 280 did get some complaints as I recall, but that may have been before the last redesign. Perhaps they learned something. But that model is on a different cycle.
And, Dave, yes a 496 would be nice, I could enjoy it. Have even thought about it, but I've sunk enough into this one already. The 5.7 will have to be my compromise.
 
islandhopper00 said:
You know thinking about it, why if it is "common practice" to move the "celery stick" for better planning times has that as an option not surfaced to help my situation. I've talked till I'm blue in the face to many different shops and this has never come up. (I have the same dealer as Dave.) Why didn't the Merc R&D team not explain this to me? Or at least tell me to try it? The "cruiser" industry confuses me to say the least. I think the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing and there is big money in confusion. Once again I am disappointed in this boating segment. Especially when John Q public is more informed than the supposed professionals.
Click to expand...

Islandhopper,
There is much truth in your last sentence. The reason is, in my opinion, that we have a common need/desire to know, the manufacturer does not. His need/desire is to SELL. Nothing more. I work in the service industry and I can tell you firsthand that no problem gets solved unless there many who are experiencing it and voicing it.
That's what makes this board so valuable. We will not take "I don't know" for an answer. We will dig and delve and if we can't come up with an answer we will pool our collective experience and expertise and come up with a solution ourselves. Just like my AC water issue, do I honestly believe that Searay is going to take a 240DA and tank test it to replicate the real life problem? No. That was all just lip service meant to pacify. That's why I took it upon myself to resolve it and pass it along to all here.
I hope Dave's recommendation helps to resolve your planning issue, and then we can add that to the wealth of information we possess.
 
Boating is not for the faint of heart. At the prices we pay, I believe both the services and products we receive are inadequate. Because of this, I have become competent enought to take almost all of the service needs out, and educated enough to get the very best product I can. I would just get out of it, but I can't. I love it. I enjoy the boats, the water, and the time with those I love. Even when boating is bad, it is still pretty good.

I suspect the real problem with the industry is that the large companies are probably not run at the high levels by true boaters. So they are never really even aware of the faults of their products. Some people complain, but most don't, and they keep selling. I believe if more avid boaters were making the decisions at the larger manufacturer's like Sea Ray, the industry would be much larger and more successful. But they haven't asked me. And they probably haven't asked you either.

Oh, I have been surveyed, but the questions asked have been worthless.

Anyway, the tenderness of my 260 is not manifested during planing. It shows up as a result of weight changes. or wind across the beam. Having said that, the trade off for the tenderness is a comparably softer ride. I prefer that trade.

The trade off for underpowered engines is often stated as better fuel economy. that is either incorrect, or a lie depending on the knowledge of the person expressing it. The larger engine will do as well, and sometimes better than the smaller engine. This makes the bigger engine the obvious choice to me. But the deck is stacked against those who are uninformed, or informed incorrectly.
 
I hope to be testing my boat tomorrow with the drive repostioned further down. We are going to try and load up the boat with a bunch of people in the cockpit and see how it planes.

One point I want to make for anyone else considering doing this on their own. You also need to recalibrate your trim sensors or Smartcraft will trigger an alarm. When I arrived at the dealers this morning that's what they were doing and that's what they told me. I don't know how you do this recalibration and I didn't ask.
 
Not sure if it can be said any better than Keokie has expressed it, other than to add the importance of doing exactly what Keokie has done, educate yourself to know and understand as much of the service and maintenance procedures as possible to limit your "vulnerability".
 
I have to give a heart felt thank you to all who listens to my rantings and tries to give a helping hand verses kicking a fellow when he's down. "Thank you." Keokie I checked my "celery stick" and changed it's position so more negative trim can be used. Hopefully this is a large percentage of my planing problems. I'll find out this weekend. Dave I found out why It's called a celery stick, It looks like a stick of celery that was trimed down. I'll deal with the alarms when I get them I guess. The only reason to set this boat up like it is is because of the people who buy these boats and know absoloutly nothing about running a boat. It screws with thoes of us who think we know something. :grin:
I am amazed at how uninformed most industry subject matter experts are. I have been boating most of my life, albeit in a different style of boats. You would think more related than does. I feel like a fish out of water trying to figure out basic issues with these cruiser style boats. I realize how how simple it was to just look back at the transom and see how the motors were positioned instead of guessing. ie. engine trim, motor position, steering angle. Then having to deal with the raised helm issue. :smt021 man its overwhelming. I guess it's my personallity that drives my need to comprehend every facet of each engineering system on board because I have to fend for myself in the islands. In my experience stuff happens at the worst time and can ruin a great vacation if not prepared. I have learned a great deal in the short time of owning this boat and realize that most people don't care how systems work just that they do. And by all means hide any trace of mechanical systems to the point of lunacy. Fishing boats are utilitarian by design, but getting more complicated as we speak. My biggest concern/fear is boat handling in ruff seas. I have many hours of offshore boat handling skills and can hold my own is seas up to 10 to 12 ft. Some of the best fishing I've ever done was in 6-8 ft seas. I've never been concerned with my ability to handle a boat, fishing boat that is. My close friends call on me to run their boats if it is sloppy off shore. Now due to the raised center of gravity and questionable stability I worry that my confidence could be my demise because of reactional decisions verses thoughtful ones. (does that make sense) Anyways thanks to all who help instead of bash.
 
Oh and Dave my statement about 280 sundancers was completely opinion and gussing with no merit what so ever. I'm not sure I believe it either. compromise is exactly what these boats are, my mind just won't let me imagine some of the trade offs for form over function. Pretty is great but you still have to run the boat to get it to your favorite hiding spot. :thumbsup:
 
Islandhopper,
The 240 and to a large degree the 260 are in my opinion 2 of the most difficult boats to operate. The raised helm, relatively narrow beam, and steep deadrise conspire against the novice boater almost to the point of distraction. By comparison, my 300DA could be operated in my sleep. The beam and stability with twins and the subtle reaction to trim and tab made it ideal. This new boat is a huge compromise in many ways, some of which I'm only beginning to learn. Those compromises may give you cause to rethink your Gulf stream crossing. If not they at least will give you reason to be even more vigilant than you normally would, and that's a good thing.

Joe
 
smanier said:
I am still curious how the boat performs with the 496 and a full compliment of people. Maybe Thunderbird will chime in here since I know he has the big motor.
Click to expand...

I've not experienced the planing issue described here with the 496 Mag. The most people I've had on board, however, are 5 adults and 4 kids, but I have a 350 pound generator in the engine compartment. With more people on board, it does take an extra few seconds to push the boat to plane. With 2 adults and 2 kids, the 260 pops right up with moderate throttle.

The chine walk I've experienced can be eliminated by pushing trim tabs down before powering up. Once on plane, I pull the tabs back up. I've also learned that running the boat with the engine trimmed up a bit creates a stable ride.
 
Joe I hate the thought that my trip to the islands this summer is in jepoardy because of this boat. In reality that's exactly what I'm thinking. Now what hurts my feelings is the fact that I've crossed the gulf stream in a 21 ft center console and a 21 ft walkaround and never felt uneasy about the sea state at the time of the crossing. In fact one year in the center console (21 palm beach w/200hp merc) the weather whipped up some 8-10ft rollers and water and spray would carry over the tee top. I would bury the tabs and tuck the outboard and throttle for conditions. I don't think I'll have that option with the 240. I should say, weather when I left Lake Worth Inlet was calm with 1-2 ft seas. Most would say you should have turned back, well at some point in the trip you reach what I call the point of no return. That's when It's closer to finish the crossing than to turn back. I have witinessed boats turn back 40 miles into the trip to not realize 15 more miles and they would have been home free, but they would turn back and run 40 more miles back home in greater jeopardy than if they finished the run.
Any ways I think it's good advise about reconsidering the trip and it is weighing heavy on my mind.
 
Islandhopper,

I do not at all want to give you a false sense of confidence in your 240, and I have never been in the waters you are talking about, but I think you are selling your boat short.

My 260 does have some odd handling characteristics, but it has done very well in awful conditions. I think the best thing to avoid in these vessels is a nasty following sea.

Also, I don't want to oversell it, but moving the "celery stick" will make a difference. And, for my 310, I did not have a smartcraft problem, nor do I care to recalibrate the trim gauges. The trim gauges are worthless for accuracy.
 
One more thing that keokie mentioned that was also mentioned by the Service Tech was the possiblity of bow steer when you move the celery stick. He said some boats are worse than others and said to be sure you trim up when on plane and don't trim your outdrive all the way down at speed.

Thunderbird, it sounds like there is no problem planing with the 496 which is what I suspected. Thanks for your insight. :thumbsup:

And as far as the 240 and 260 being difficult to control............that's the way I initially felt too. Compared to my 240 Sundeck, it was actually a bit un-nerving actually. I don't feel that way any longer and it just took learning a few tricks to make the boat feel comfortable for me. Ironically it all centered around learning when to use and not use the trim tabs and how to properly use the outdrive trim. And by the way, it took me six months to figure that all out too. :smt021
 
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