Planing issues with 2005 thru 2007 350MAG powered 260DA's ?

Keokie and all, I realize the benefits this boat offers and ability of the hull. My ability to run this boat in Lake Wylie or any body of relative calm waters is not in question. What I do question is the hull's ability to handle conditions out in open ocean. Now some may say this boat was never "intended" to be run in open ocean, I disagree. The rating on this hull is based on the ability to run "inshore" to include "coastal" waters. What is the definition of coastal waters? 3 miles from shore? 1 mile, 50 miles? My insurance company will cover me to 50 miles offshore. I don't think I would run 50 miles offshore though. Wind force 6 and wave heights of up to 6 1/2 ft. The trouble with this is how do you plan to remain in thoes parameters when you can't control the weather. 6 1/2 ft wave height is big to me. As I've said before I have been offshore as capt. in 15 ft seas. In the military I've seen 50 ft seas in the north atlantic. Scary to say the least, even in a ship at 560 ft length. Now one ever plans or wants heavy seas but a prudent capt. would never dismiss the possibility of such an occurance. The question is, what will your vessel do if caught in conditions outside of the boats rated capacity? The NMMA accepts "inverted and floating" as reasonable. I don't. I like to think I take "calculated" risks, and am not a daredevil. I wonder would a 260 DA really take wind force 8 and seas to 13 ft? Hope I never find out.
A following heavy sea in an under powered boat is dangerous. I recognize that. However there is not an exception in the books that excludes the 5.0L 260 hp base engine 240 DA from it's rated capacity. It should perform as rated. I wonder has this been tested or is it theory? Does Sea Ray test each hull catergory to it's rating capacity to see the actual results? I don't think so. So I have to develop my own risk assesment or trust the designers. When one takes ones own life in their own hands you start to question capabilities.
I realize I'm talking about conditions that may never surface but as I have stated I am the capt. and It's my responsibility to ensure the safety of my crew. I don't think that very statement weighs heavy enough on the average boater even in calm waters. If you talk to someone who has hurt or worse been responsible for the death of someone on their vessel I bet they think about it every day for the rest of their lives. That is the position I am so carefully considering. Is this trip worth the risk of life or limb? Most times prior to my trip the answer has been Yes. This trip is in question.

Once again thank you all for facts, answers, opinions, and experiences. I will use every bit of judgement to make my decision. I appreciate the open forum provided here so as to educate ones self and the level of knowlege there is on this board. I actually enjoy sparing with some on this web site because it challenges one to think outside of ones normal thought processes.
Thank you all. Mike
 
lorenbennett said:
Dave could post a picture of the "celery sticks" your speaking about. Thank You. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

I don't have a picture of it and I didn't see it myself but my understanding is it's a spacer that looks like a piece of celery. The mounting hole for the rear of your trim cylinders is elliptical and the celery stick takes up the extra space. That's why you can move it to either end of the mounting hole.
 
Mike.............we hear you and value your comments and experience. :thumbsup:

I for one would never make the trip you are planning in my 260DA. But then again I have no experience in open waters like that. For me the boat would have to over 30 feet and have twin engines. I would also only do it with several other experienced boats and boaters to accompany me. Then I would have a certain degree of "comfort". :grin:
 
Dave that's what this is all about, comfort level.

I spoke to Rick about the smart craft alarms when the celery stick is moved. I think yours is done. The smart craft monitors ohm values from the drive trim feedback sensor. It must read between 16-20 ohms. If the values are outside of tolerance then the sensor must be calibrated. I think I can calibrate mine but if I can't Rick says he'll take care of me.
I should mention Dave S and my dealer/service people will bend over backwards to help. Lake Wylie Marina serves my needs well and I consider myself fortunate to have them to deal with. We did buy our boats from them new so that may be why we recieve such great service. There was an adjustment period for me with them due to my nature for the need to understand every aspect of my boat. I like to perform my own maint. and adjustments not because I am cheap but because you never know where you'll be when you need to know how something works.
 
Lake Test Report

I lake tested the boat this morning but I did it solo. Because of this I can't be sure the outdrive adjustment will solve my problem when the boat is loaded with people but here is what I can report:

I first tested without the use of tabs and the drive tucked fully in. The bow was noticably lower when comming on plane and overall the time to plane seemed shorter than in the past. I trimmed my drive up as I gained speed and the boat performed well. One peculiar thing I noticed was different is that my boat now lists slightly to port as it is comming on plane where before it used to list to starboard. :smt101 Once fully trimmed though, she straightens right up.

Next I lowered my tabs all the way and with the drive tucked in the boat came up on plane fine but started to list hard to port and started to turn left as well. This is undoubtedly the "bow steer" keokie mentioned earlier. I tried this routine several times and by trimming the tabs carefully as I was comming on plane, I felt the control over turning and leaning was noticably better.

Next, with the boat fully on plane, and going about 25 mph with the drive trimmed out, I slowly started to lower the drive all the way. I can report at this speed you will definitely experience bow steer if you try this and it is certainly something that gets your attention as the boat leans and starts turning to port. I wanted to experiment with this a bit so I tried several different runs. Obviously the easiest thing to do is start trimming your drive and the boat will straighten up. But it is also possible to correct the problem by lowering a trim tab. So if you are carefull and really know what you are doing, you can get the boat to straighten out even with the drive fully tucked under. But in the end tucking the drive all the way in at speeds over 20 mph is not something I would recommend.

So the final test will be when I can get a bunch of people on board and see how she planes out. I will report back on that whenever I can make that happen. In summary, I am pleased with the adjustment made on the outdrive so far and how the boat performs as a result of it.
 
Is this trim issue one that is 240DA and 260DA specific?

I have a 280SS. . .and I don't go through any of these issues. As I read this thread last week -> I played around with my drive over the weekend. I just created problems when I forgot to reposition the drive. (i.e., an attempt to get on plane with the drive not fully down seemed to push the stern way into the water and the bow way into the sky -> Quite alarming, actually! :smt101 )
 
Islandhopper,

I agree with your sentiments about safety 100% It is why I have often turned down invitations to go out on other people's boats.

Also, I have had to disappoint guests who wanted to do things I have not felt were safe for my boat, the passengers, or both. I really have hated to disappoint, but it hasn't kept me from doing it. I tend to be very cautious when I am responsible for others, and I have a strong education and a lot of experience with boating. Still, I have ended up in a few unnerving situations. It is easy to imagine how bad things could get without some caution, education, and experience.

Further, I share your quest for knowledge about how everything works. It is one of the things I like better about my 26. I know exactly how everthing works on her. I have completely re-rigged all systems. If something were to stop working, I would know to diagnose it on the spot (save for just a few electronic systems on the motor). I am learning with my 31, but it is quite complicated, and access can be very difficult. Even though my 31 has twins, I still have a little more confidence in my 26.

Finally, I am quite certain Sea Ray is not testing it's small and mid-size cruisers in any adverse conditions. However, I can tell you that while your hull is tender, it is only tender to a point. That V allows it to lean to a considerable degree, but to actually capsize takes a lot more force.

Anyway, good luck everyone with moving the "celery stick". It is a simple and effective way to improve planing performance. Just mind your trim as you increase speed.

Dave, one other thought. You mentioned a listing problem when coming up on plane if you use your tabs. Are you dropping your tabs, and then throttling up, or are you dropping your tabs as you are throttling up? The reason I ask is sometimes, due to line length, the tabs deploy at much different speeds. That may be the cause of the list.
 
keokie said:
Dave, one other thought. You mentioned a listing problem when coming up on plane if you use your tabs. Are you dropping your tabs, and then throttling up, or are you dropping your tabs as you are throttling up? The reason I ask is sometimes, due to line length, the tabs deploy at much different speeds. That may be the cause of the list.
Click to expand...

The tabs are deployed fully first but the leaning gets very pronounced as the boat starts comming on plane. As far as I know this is another one of those peculiarities shared only by the 240DA and the 260DA. I never had any issues like that with my 240SD...........you could drop the tabs down all the way before you took off and the boat tracked stright and true as it came on plane. And as far as I know those with bigger boats such as the 280DA and larger can also use their tabs in the more "traditional" fashion as well without adverse reactions.
 
While I have an older 270, not a new 260, I have some of the same issues regarding getting on plane with full load.

I installed a trim tab indicator, and now I would not consider not having one. I found out when I installed it that the tabs are quite slow to operate, and did not move at the same speed. Trying to apply down tabs at the same time as hitting the throttle would be totally counter-productive. They would not go down at the same rate, and would not be down far enough to do any good until I was already on plane, at which time they should be up.

So what I do when loaded is to first put the tabs down about 80%, and make sure they are even. I could go 100% if very heavily loaded. Then I trim the drive so it is about halfway between in line with the keel (neutral trim) and fully down. This is about 75% down on my boat. This way I minimize wasting prop thrust for lifting the stern, that's what the tabs are for.

I use full throttle. When speed gets up to about 15 - 18 MPH, I start raising the trim tabs. The boat will be going 25 MPH by the time the tabs are up, and I have to start backing off the throttle. When the tabs are up, then I trim up the outdrive to bring the bow up to best speed at about 3400 RPM. Works for me.
 
Just walked back in the house from the celery stick adjustment test. Well I was lucky, I didn't have to adjust my trim sensors or smart gauges. No alarms.
Well for my boat this adjustment makes this a completly different boat. Bow rise dropped off significantly, time to plane is acceptable, and I am amazed how such a small adjustment could make such a difference. The boat will stay on plane at a much slower speed, down to 10-12 mph @ 2800 rpm! I did notice the same leaning as Dave did however mine would lean in either direction as it came up on plane just depending on wind or wave action. I filled the fuel tank and water tank so as to have weight in the boat. WOW! Makes me happy.
Question, why is this adjustment not more used or heard of? I asked many shops and never got the advice to make it. Like I said I'm an outboard guy so I didn't have a clue about this.
If anyone is having trouble getting on plane check this adjustment and make it, you won't be sorry.
I made some mid speed turns while trimmed down and could turn the boat around in it's own length. Not for the faint at heart. Kinda like a jet ski. Any way I'll keep playing and learning and this has restored some of my faith in this boat. THANK YOU KEOKIE!!! :thumbsup:
 
I'll call murphy's tommorrow but my luck says they have already made the adjustment. That's fine with me I'll keep/use them as spares or put them on for pulling tubes or maybe skiing. I still want to try them out anyways. If I find I don't need that pitch range I can have them pitched back. :smt017
 
My guess is your boat will rocket onto plane with the outdrive adjustment and the 18P props. I was thinking about that as I was testing mine. Those 18P props would probably make the 260 perform the same way. :grin:
 
I want to say thank you Dave S for bringing up the question in such a manner that brought the great answer. Now I need to learn to be more tactful and maybe I wouldn't offend so that folks would be more willing to respond. Thanks, Mike
 
Well Dave when I get them back we can put them on your boat for giggles just to see what it does for your boat. Might help you with your tubing pulling. :thumbsup:
 
Great news Mike, I hope this restores the confidence enough to make you reconsider your island trip. I'm curious now to know where my drive is set, but that will have to wait as it is wet slipped and I don't own a trailer. Anyway, glad that you are pleased with the boat. Just as with every other discovery this one makes you wonder why we haven't heard of this from the factory or dealer?
 
jg300da, It does change things and gives me more confidence in the boats ability to handle ruff conditions by allowing me to run slower and stay on plane. (not beat the crap out of the boat) It makes better use of the power on hand by allowing me to lift the stern as I need to. I can still porpoise the boat by trimming up so that means I still have full range.
I'd guess yours is set with the celery stick in front of the bolt as mine was. You do have the 350 mag though. I think I would still change it just because it helps so much.
 
Glad to hear the "celery stick" move has helped others. I should have thought of it right away, but the credit should actually go to Dave who mentioned the elliptical hole. That's what cued my memory.

Jg300da, I feel quite confident your boat is not set up to maximize negative trim. You can check without pulling it (you can even make the change in the water if you are in shallow enough water to retrieve dropped parts).

Dave and islandhopper, you might want to try a set of cupped props. Sometimes that will straighten out those kind of handling quirks that cause listing. Although that fix is not as reliable as the trim trick. Also, what size trim tabs did they put on the 240's and 260's?

This board is a great place to learn, isn't it?
 
I would like to urge the utmost caution for those that make the 'celery stick' modification. I think Sea Ray builds the boats the way they do with deliberate consideration. My concern is that if you make this mod, you make it more likely that the boat will take control away from you and spin the steering fully to port in about one second. Maybe if you are on plane, at speed, it could throw people out of the boat.

If you have a tight grip on the wheel, you can prevent the spin, but you may well feel it try and take over. It happened to me once, about a month ago, with my 270 DA, which does not not have the mod or the provision for it. I stopped it, but not before it began a turn. I don't know that I had the trim full down, I sort of doubt it, I would not normally run like that. But if not that, I don't know what caused it. At the time, I attributed it to the missing trim tab the Merc does not put on the outdrive to trim for neutral steering. At that is there is a corrosion anode.

So be careful out there! Realize that you are making a modification that can affect the steering stability of your boat.
 
Dave is absolutely correct.

I would go one step further and recommend that if you are not having planing issues with your boat, then don't make this change. The way the drive is set up at the factory is perfectly acceptable in most cases. Those of us who own pocket cruisers know how quickly they can't react with unexpected leaning and turning by improper use of tabs or outdrive trim even as they are delivered from the factory and moving the celery stick just adds another element of control to the equation that some may not be prepared to deal with.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Forum statistics

Threads
113,202
Messages
1,428,452
Members
61,108
Latest member
asigman
Back
Top